AOB knew that had he said it was a steady pace where that would lead. Those comments were copied by the lazy. incestuous racing media. In the eye of the storm? And some on here believe that. You could not make it up.

*Smullen's

I believe what I could see with my own eyes, Cracksman wasn't travelling comfortably at the pace.

I have just watched it again and that is total rubbish. At the start the AOB horses mobbed out to secure their told positions and Smullen accepted that after sitting out wide because he could not get in. The facts are that he was at least 4 lengths behind Capri entering the home straight instead of pressing for the lead and lost out on the nod.
I cannot believe anyone would think that was a strongly run race where the pacemaker was ignored, was still in front 2 out and at the furlong pole 6 horses were spread wide across the track. Added to that the winner didn't stay at St Cloud, didn't stay in the Derrinstown and didn't stay in the Derby.

What do you really think Gosden is going to say? Goodness me.

You will have to believe what you believe but I really cannot believe you listen to AOB etc. I will leave it at that.

WOE retired after fracturing a leg.


https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/derby-hero-wings-of-eagles-retired-after-curragh-injury/291499

Harry, there wasn't really a pace meltdown at Epsom. The two pacesetters slowed markedly as you'd expect but most of those behind ran close to an even pace.

https://www.timeform.com/horse-racing/features/sectionals/sectional-timing-debrief-investec-derby-festival-462017

You could be right Harry. I think I said earlier in the thread that Cracksman could be just one paced and JG has often said he is not a quick horse. That is why I hoped Smullen would have had him challenging for the lead turning for home as he did on Harzand, not around 4 lengths behind Capri, where the 3 furlong uphill straight would have played to his strengths. Had he done that he may have won by clear daylight. We don't know. What we do know is that he made all his ground on the uphill section as he appears to have done in his other races and this could be to do with his action. Perhaps the undulations down the back straight unbalanced him?
Anyway I hope JG runs him at Ascot when they race on the incline from Swinley bottom which I think is around a mile from home then it is a gradual rise to the line.
You can go broke making excuses for racehorses but luckily, if you like, I haven't managed to lose any money on him yet. It is still early days.

poor

Me.
Sesamoid injuries can be wide ranging and may not even show up without x-ray. If the skin is broken then the injury is likely to be serious but, apparently, it's not a bone with a blood supply so the fracture will not necessarily result in lameness etc. It is a pity WoE won't race again.

As far as WoE is concerned and the Irish Derby he never changed his legs all the way up the home straight when asked the question and that is usually a sign that there is something wrong in the leg area. Added to that I suggest with the ride Capri was given, the tactics of the race and the betting support pointed to the winner who I think everyone in AOB's yard think is marginally the best horse. Also I think the ride Cracksman was given and the ground he made up on a track more suited to him than Epsom produced a result I thought it might. And actually, if anyone was inconvenienced by the tactics in the race it was Cracksman who was forced to challenge 6 wide around the home bend when the 5 O'Brien horses carried him out wide. Do I think WoE ran below form in those circumstances, no I don't.

*delete affect

AOB

O’Brien said here that the fracture was so significant that it cast a fresh light on Wings Of Eagles’ performance on Saturday. “We’re very lucky that it didn’t come apart during the race,” the trainer said. “You’re always worried when they pull out in the morning [after a race] and when he pulled out, he was very sore. When he was x-rayed, his sesamoid was coming apart.

“It’s incredible that he ran the race that he did really. W

That's good enough for me to give WOE the benefit of the doubt.Not that it matters much.

Not Timeform and not AOB? Goodness me and it is only Monday.

I will read it Figgis but I so often disagree with what they say it will probably be through gritted teeth. Of course, like me, they cannot be wrong all of the time. I hope.

With regard to AOB it is not surprising he is still selling his horse, he just cannot help himself. First he said he was lame this morning, now he is sore. It may be that buyers prefer to read that a horse is sore rather than lame, who knows. One of my bones of contention is that I cannot believe a word he says so I will not be changing that position anytime soon.

Having read Timeform's piece, thank you Figgis, you need not have posted that. I would never have read it. The thing it confers to me is the rubbish AOB was talking. Including his observation that Capri needs at least 12f and WoE may be better over 10f. A salesman through and through.

I'm not sure about that RR. Owners, trainers, jockeys, breeders and punters are being stitched up. It has been mentioned a lot in the press this year something is going to give. It happened when Sheikh Mohammed was running his horses in all the weaker meetings. This will not go on.

Ballydoyle had eight runners in Authorized`s Derby, made not the slightest difference.

I'm not sure on what basis this can't go on/continue. Seem to recall massive controversy as long ago as the 2008 Irish Derby where AOB had 5 of the 11 runners and Stoute's Tartan Bearer was seen as the victim of team tactics by many analysts/experts.

It's also worth pointing out that of AOB's 6 representatives in this year's Epsom Derby, 4 finished in the first 7 places - Gosden ran 5 (albeit in different ownership) and 3 of them finished in the last 5 places.

Felt the important point is are they running as a team or on their individual merits. If, for example, a horses chance is compromised by the instructions the jockey has been given then it is not running on its merits. If a horse compromises its chance by tearing off alongside a known fast front runner then weakens rapidly because it has been given an injudicous ride then the question is was it there to spoil the front runners chances and therefore aid the success of a stable companion or was it running on its merits. I think Intelligence Cross was a spoiler at Royal Ascot so the question must be asked of the jockey 'what were your orders'. I know jockeys are not always honest so it is not beyond the wit of man to ask AOB to declare beforehand what the instructions to his jockeys are. You can fool some people some of the time but not all people all of the time.
I have no problem with pace setters working to ensure a sound pace to test another horse's stamina but if, for example, they pull off the rails because they know their stable companion is right behind them then make sure the horse they want to beat is forced to go around them I think that would be team tactics.

I guess you have to ask yourself whether these horses would run this way had they all been trained by different trainers? Would they have taken their positions in the Irish Derby as they did? Filling the first five places. Would they have fanned 5 horses wide entering the straight and split to let WoE go through when he did?

Leading racing writer Kevin Blake outlines why Capri benefitted from a Ballydoyle tactical masterclass in the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby.

Tactical masterclass from Ballydoyle in Irish Derby

In the aftermath of the 2000 Guineas at Newmarket there was much talk about the apparent tactical masterclass that the runners from Ballydoyle had executed to maximise Churchill’s chance. Personally, I didn’t buy into that line of analysis, as it would have been next to impossible for them to have planned anything like what transpired due to the draws that their runners came from. They simply made the best of the race as it panned out in front of them.

However, what transpired in the Irish Derby last Saturday appeals as being a different matter altogether. What the Ballydoyle runners achieved in maximising the chances of their runners whilst reducing the chances of their main rivals really was as good an example of highly-effective and within-the-rules tactics that one will ever see at the highest level of horse racing. Yet, very few people seem to be talking about it.

As with any tactics, the draw will play a major role in what can and can’t be realistically achieved, and in this case it couldn’t have been any kinder to Ballydoyle. Their two main hopes Wings Of Eagles and CAPRI were drawn in stalls three and one respectively, whilst their three stable mates who have all made the running at some point in the past were drawn in two, five and six. Their main opposition, Cracksman and Waldgeist, were drawn in seven and eight respectively.

The best plans involve tend to involve an element of surprise to bring about a favoured conclusion and that may well have played a role in this race. With the leading Ballydoyle hope Wings Of Eagles having thrived in a strongly-run race in the Derby and with him having no less than three potential pacemakers in the Irish Derby, it would have been perfectly reasonable for the connections of Waldgeist and Cracksman to assume that the Irish Derby would be run at a similarly strong pace. As it turned out, the Ballydoyle runners used this assumption as a potent weapon against their rivals.

While the fast-starting Grandee briefly threatened to upset the plan, the Ballydoyle runners were soon able to get into formation at the frontend. It was The Anvil that made the running, with Capri and Wings Of Eagles taking up ground-saving positions on the rail in Indian file behind the leader, with their stable mates Douglas Macarthur and Taj Mahal providing those two with cover on their outside shoulders.

While Pierre-Charles Boudot had immediately taken Waldgeist back to the rear of the field, presumably in anticipation of a strong pace, one can sense that Pat Smullen was less keen to commit. Smullen is as tactically astute as any rider in Europe and has ridden in enough Irish Classics to know to expect the unexpected when it comes to riding against Ballydoyle.

Having started on terms, it was noticeable that he delayed committing to a position for as long as he reasonably could, staying towards the outside of the field to give himself the option of pushing forward or taking back based on how the race unfolded in the opening furlong. With the field about to start to steadily turn right-handed, Smullen had to make a decision or be stranded out wide on the turn, so having seen The Anvil and Douglas Macarthur push forward, he made what was a perfectly reasonable decision in that moment to take his mount back rather than push forward into what at that stage looked likely to be a strongly-run affair.

It was after all of the runners had committed to their positions that the next key stage of the race unfolded, with Ana O’Brien steadying the pace on The Anvil in front and the pursuing Ballydoyle runners keeping the intervals quite wide behind her. This may have given the visual illusion of a well-run race that had strung out the runners, but the sectional times revealed that the pace was on the steady side.

As Mick Kinane mentioned in his excellent ATR course guide, the Derby track at the Curragh is deceptive in that the field are almost constantly on the turn from after two furlongs until they enter the straight. Thus, for a jockey to try and make ground up on the outside in the middle part of the race in response to a steadier-than-anticipated pace would mean sacrificing ground and cover to those closer to the rail that could well outweigh any positional advantage gained from taking closer order.


The final piece in the tactical jigsaw came as the runners turned for home, with Capri enjoying a dream tow into the clear towards the inside as Douglas Macarthur and Taj Mahal edged to their left whilst leaving a gap for Wings Of Eagles to make his challenge. This left the Ballydoyle runners stacked five wide with two-and-a-half furlongs to race, obliging both Cracksman and Waldgeist to swing even wider in search of open ground to launch their challenges.

From there, it was a case of who could make the best of their position and what ensued was a tremendously-exciting finish, with Capri holding off the late challenges of Cracksman and Wings Of Eagles by a neck and a short-head.

For Capri, this represented redemption for a run in the Derby that was better than it appeared on paper. As well as not being ridden in a way that maximised his stamina, Capri had ended up racing widest of all and made his bid earlier than ideal, with him not seeming to enjoy the track either. All told, a 3¾-length defeat wasn’t a bad run in the circumstances and a jockey of Seamie Heffernan’s experience and tactical awareness didn’t need a second invitation to right that wrong at the Curragh.

While Capri certainly improved for the more orthodox track and a much more positive ride, there is also little escaping that he benefited from the best position as the race panned out. The race couldn’t have gone any better for him and he only just held on from his pursuers. That said, he certainly has the potential to stay further and the St Leger seems the right target for him.

Of the beaten runners, there is little doubt that Cracksman is likely to have won this race on another day in slightly different circumstances. The way the race was run left him with a big task on his plate upon entering the straight and he only failed by a neck to overcome it.

This is what I mean.

If you are happy Felt that is really all that matters. I am not happy about it and I have been banging on about this lot for years. The list is absolutely endless.
This is a report from 2008.

Aidan O'Brien last night left the British Horseracing Authority's London HQ with a terse "no comment" after being hit with a £5,000 fine for breaking the 'team tactics' rules when Duke Of Marmalade won last month's Juddmonte International at Newmarket.

Duke Of Marmalade's jockey Johnny Murtagh, an 11th-hour addition to the charge sheet, and Colm O'Donoghue, rider of pacemaking 66-1 outsider Red Rock Canyon in the 10-furlong Group 1, were each given a seven-day ban.
"I had no doubt that everything was fair on the day," seethed the master of Ballydoyle, who was acquitted of a similar charge, brought after George Washington's victory in the 2006 Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Ascot.

"It has become second nature - almost paranoia - it comes out of my mouth without thinking, that no interference or trouble should be caused to anybody.

"One journalist led Johnny down the garden path, and a lot of other journalists jumped on the bandwagon," added O'Brien, dropping a heavy hint Murtagh would cease to give interviews with the press in future.

The problem the BHA has, as with the Top Cees case, is that they can be sued if they get it wrong. And Coolmore are very, very rich.

The pressure is growing against the Coolmore gang and their 'team tactics'. Yippee.
Kevin Blake (Attheraces)and Lee Mottershead (Racing Post) on Monday, Julian Muscat (Racing Post) today, all raising concerns. Keep a look out for a letter in the Post anytime soon. Shame on them!