Epsom Derby 2017

O/T
kinscem...I believe I had a bet with you. Could you plz tell me who won? I'd forggoten the terms and conditions. Cheers!

Where did Wings Of Eagles come from to pick the pockets of the principals ie Cliffs Of Moher, Cracksman and Eminent? O'Brien: "Both he and Cliff Of Moher could run in the Irish Derby, if the Coolmore boys agree."

Its all in the form book. Try reading it.

I laid him at 70 last week when I thought he was France bound but backed him at 50 today for the same stake. And now he is fav for the Leger. If only I knew prior...........

Good lad

It could have been so much worse for you

Oh yes, I took 50 but believed he drifted out to 95 and more here. Because of that I chose Venice Beach (Donnacha) instead of Wings Of Eagles whose jockey (Beggy) I backed in the Irish 1000G (Hydrangea) for a fore/tricast combi with Eminent, Cracksman, Cliffs of Moher and Khalidi; the fore/tri combi for a 40/1 winner with 5/1 and 7/2 for 10p paid £223.80 and £921.34p respectively.

Anyway, well done to jockey Beggy as his cut of £921.5k winning prize is probably equivalent to a year's remuneration.

Went to 100/1 on here. There comes a point where the price was just ridiculous for its chances. Whose the clown now Jedi Sophie.

It is most disappointing for COM backers to be beaten by an unfancied horse from the same yard

Sure is, although as punters we can't complain they weren't all trying. I imagine if I was part of the ownership, however, I'd feel like I shot myself in the bollocks . Wonder if they'll continue with this strategy in future.

The operation is set. The days when the defeat of El Gran Señor was a serious blow to there plans has long gone. As long as they win and keep the Sheikh in his little box screaming to get out, they will be well pleased. Another masterclass from Aidan and his band of merry men. They are the best by a street.

It was a ridiculous price (here) just because there was money for Venice Beach.

How good is this renewal despite the winning time was 1.4 secs quicker than standard? Inconclusive, is my opinion, but Eminent ran well despite the ground was a touch too quick for him; he also came from some way back (12th) unlike the 2nd and 3rd who had every chance but did not quite (seem) to see out the trip.

Very interesting if the 1st 4 take on one another again in the Irish Oaks next Month on ground with a bit of juice. I cannot say the same result will prevail.

Give the winner some credit. He hardly had an interrupted run and the jockey had to pull him about to get a run. Would have won by 3 lengths if a clear run and won going away in a good time.

As long as they win and keep the Sheikh in his little box screaming to get out, they will be well pleased

Well they're not exactly going to be suicidal after bagging first and second in a Derby but they're obviously far less pleased than if the result had been the other way around. As anyone would be. O'Brien still insisted on talking up the 2nd over the winner.

COM no superstar by their standards is he?

COM no superstar by their standards is he?

Obviously not after being beaten by their 40/1 rag. But after what would've looked an impressive winning run coming from near last to first and beating the other form horses they could've talked him up and passed him off as one, which is what matters to them.

Pathetic aftertiming from Try My Best and impossible123.

See the other thread dickhead. How much you lose

You've never backed a 100/1 winer in your life. I had Qualify as well Sankara which makes 2. 341 posts. Haha a true racing fanatic

my view on the race is ryan moore, is crap around Epsom, he has his horse in virtually last place, and uses up all the petrol getting to the front. frankie gave his horse a great ride and gave supporters good run for their money.

Come on the runner up has done nothing wrong. Sweated up badly before the race and just got a bit tired. Ryan did nothing wrong. Cracksman never going imo and did well to finish where he did. 3/1 dear oh dear what a shambolic price for cracksman

Point proved.

obviously a COM backer. You blaming Moore for losing your dough Sankara. Please enlighten us on the ride

Sankara...you are pathetic. I laid the winner at 70 (here) on 18th May at 15:15 and backed him at 50 yesterday at 19:16.

AOB has suggested the winner and the 2nd could go for the Irish equivalent if the boys agree, and the jockey of the 4th Eminent has told the trainer to go there too on 1st July; if so, interesting,...a smaller field on softer ground could mean a different result likely, in my opinion.

Don't bother with the loser. I know Figgis was keen on COM and others but not bleating about the result. Why? The best horse on the day won comfortably

Get your loan application in Sankara to replace the shitload that you lost today.

what's eric_morris' username these days?

The winner won fair and square so no complaints on that score. As for the quality of the race I have it as poor. They went a fast pace but the overall time performance is still quite mediocre for a Derby. The leaders were treading water towards the end and the winner picked them off. Going into the race I thought CoM was just about good enough to win a moderate Derby if he stayed well enough. He almost pulled it off and while I certainly wouldn't say he was a non stayer it was quite obvious he'd had enough in the last few yards, but that was always the risk.

Even though the winner won it on merit I wouldn't back him at a short price to repeat the feat. I can't see him having the pace to win a race run at a slightly less frenetic pace, well he's never shown it before anyway. As to which horse to take from the race I wouldn't want to back any of them at a short price. Maybe one of them can improve again in the near future but I wouldn't be confident which. What I am confident of is that the Oaks winner put up a better performance than the Derby winner and I think connections should really consider having a crack at the colts if she comes out of the race well.

will be interesting to see the sectionals they may have gone way too fast for a furlong or two at some point leaving many out of gas

A fair summary Fig

Hope they aim Eminent at the Eclipse instead - tailor made for him imo.

Hope they aim Eminent st the Eclipse - tailor made for him imo.

the anvil and douglas the sacrificial lambs today.

wings of eagles (well named given the way he flew home) clearly wasn't regarded in the same light by "the boys"

ul figgis since you picked out a cracking bet. thought that was the only one to take out of the race and I'm sure he'll reverse placings with the winner if they meet again.

A cracking bet that lost . u lot make me laugh. Not a good word to say about the winner. U couldn't make it up.

LR, possibly he will but I wouldn't be totally confident. Not because I don't think he has the ability, more because you never know how they'll come out of a race run like that. Running a similar style race took a lot out of USAR last year and actually I have rated last year's winner better than this year's. He could turn out to be a better horse over 10f but I'm probably going to pass on him (and the other placed runners) in future unless I see any of them improve on this form.

Thing is if WoE had finished nowhere I guarantee we wouldn't have seen anyone pop up on this thread to claim backing him

typical figs trying to fashion an argument that he was right when he wasn't. FFS you lot should be committed. I stand by that cos you neither have the good grace or intelligence to admit when you are wrong . A cracking bet that lost. What a set a losers you lot are. Cantt remember the last time that Fig backed a big race winner with all his time bullshat. I said your summary was fair, U lost be still want to make people think u won. Dear oh dear

typical figs trying to fashion an argument that he was right

Where did I say I was right?

And where is your post about this cracking 100/1 shot before the race?

see the other thread numpty. I backed eminent and the winner. The white van is coming around for you and brigust. The asylum awaits

see the other thread

Ah, the 'other' thread, I see

go and do your speed figures for the next redcar seller thats coming up. I cannot believe that a true racing fan would disregard the winner of the Derby so readily cos he didn't back it. Praise the winner cos he was better value than the winning distance suggests.

I cannot believe that a true racing fan would disregard the winner of the Derby so readily cos he didn't back it

Strange, as you seemed to accept it only twenty minutes ago

A fair summary Fig

and then you wanted to have a dig at somebody whose arguments have turned out to be correct. Just say well done in future and I will do the same the next time you might have a winner in the distant future. Every pig finds an an acorn so I will have to accept that you might stumble across one in the next couple of years.

and then you wanted to have a dig at somebody whose arguments have turned out to be correct

If you'd posted your 'arguments' on this thread (the Derby thread that we've all been discussing the race on) before the race then I'd have happily said well done. As you didn't then don't pathetically expect everyone to congratulate you on your convenient aftertiming

I'm the one with the funds in the bank. Never after time without backing the thing. Keep making excuses Fig and trying to deflect the fact that you lost AGAIN. If you ever want a tipping competition just say and I will show you up for the fraud you are.

Try My Best, the point is that WOE is a horse with very limited tactical speed. I can think of horses that have won big races in such a way - Talent's Oaks win comes straight to mind; Giacomo in the Kentucky Derby. I'm sure others can think of other examples. It will be difficult to replicate today's set of circumstances at a track like the Curragh, and certainly in a small field King George. It's a result that does the Derby no favours - Pour Moi is hardly the most fashionable stallion. And just for your info, the last time Figgis backed a big race winner was, er, yesterday, a bet he put up weeks before the Oaks. That's the way most of us like to operate - pre race disclosures carry so much more clout than post race revelations.

u probably had a saver on cracksman as well lmfao

I'm the one with the funds in the bank

You do sound quite irate in spite of this, so probably a good job you didn't lose on the race like me, hate to think how you'd have taken it

hey up Howellsy another loser has joined the scene. I don't attack anybody, even said that cracksman ran a great race for brigust who had got a great price. imo he was never to going to win the race. result he lost. but you lot can't help yourselves. Bullshat artists and people who should give the game up and can't admit when they are wrong. A typical english trait.

Evening Howellsy, what is your take on the race, CoM and the others?

Always admit when i get it wrong. I am  the same in victory as in defeat. Would have been the first on here to say well done to brigust if cracksman had watered the track. Just ashame that u lot can't do the same. Anyway goodnight losers

Despite the soundbites of AOB CoM could turn out to be another US Army Ranger ie rushed to make the Derby and paid the price later on. A renewal in the Irish Derby is awaited keenly, and my money will not be on CoM if Eminent shows up.

If I'd just had a massive win on the Derby I doubt I'd be so angry. Still, each to his own.

I've just logged on to the thread for the first time since the race
and found a poster called Try My Best has twenty four posts after the race.
I can't remember him posting before the race.  Perhaps he did.

Figgis, it's always hard to know the extent to which slight personal frustrations are affecting one's interpretations. I can't help wondering what might have happened if Moore had been closer to the pace, like Cracksman. It's a strange thing about the Derby - it seemed like a 'blistering' pace yet DMac finished very close up. I suspect the trackers went very quick between the 3 and 1 pole to catch him and paid the price close home. Moore's ride was a virtually exact replica of how he rode US Army Ranger and the Queen's horse a few years ago, and Tartan Bearer - it may well be that the horses just weren't good enough, but surely he must be curious as to what might happen if he sat closer? If any of these horses had been world beaters, I'm sure they would have won, but all I'm interested in as a punter is whether they could have won given a more tactically astute ride on the day. Lester Piggott reckoned the best tactic was generally to be in the first 6 coming around Tattenham corner. As for the winner, I just can't see how that set of circumstances can be repeated again, so find it hard to see how he can follow up. It reminded me a bit of the filly Talent a few years back - visually an impressive winner but no tactical speed and never able to repeat it. Nevertheless, I would love it if WOE could be ridden handier and could win the Irish Derby, and then come back in trip and win a top 10f event. There's no prejudice against him at all- just a feeling that this'll be another year when the Derby winner doesn't win again, which doesn't do the race any good, especially as there are plenty of people who like to undermine it.

the way he won reminded me of Lammtarra - picking them off in the final 100 yards and going away. of course very different form pre-race.

we have to remember these are really still developing juveniles -  WFA does not regard them as mature for another 12 months - so there could be spurts of big improvement at any time especially this time of year

let's hope he gets another chance - but it would not be a surprise if he is sold to Japan or something

one good thing is there are connections from yesterday who probably feel their colt is capable of great things so we may see a better field in the King George than we've become used to of late. if i owned Cracksman or Eminent I would wait for Ascot and give the Curragh (and the inevitable 6+ Ballydoyle runners) a miss

Anyone that backed WOE well done has obviously improved alot and wasn't a complete rag (100/1+) so there must have been a feeling in the yard there was a little bit more to come from the Chester Vase form. A bit galling for COM to run a huge race only to come up short especially after a similar outcome from USAR last year. My initial take was that it wasn't a great race given the top 10 were covered by 8L but i suppose time will tell. The time of the Derby does actually compare fairly favorably to the 1m 4f handicap in the next race and was run 4 seconds quicker than that. Considering the field size of the derby and conditions it was well set-up for a good clock time but it will be a headscratcher for the timebeing.  My final take was that i thought Cracksman ran probably better than the bare result given his inexperience. Anyway its been a great ride from picking out 2 yoy form to being at Epsom watching it yesterday. The derby is always a great puzzle to solve even if the result isn't necessarily what I would hope for.

Will be interesting to see how the betting shapes up if the front three/four take each other on again at the Curragh.

Don't think any of the front 4 will run in the King George.

Awful night in London last night. Our hotel was nowhere near it thank goodness but what started off as an early night ended up well into the early hours. Had planned an early start, off to spend a few days with friends north of the border and hopefully get in few rounds of golf.

I think Cracksman was the moral winner yesterday, through gritted teeth. He was in the heat of the battle from the start and was still running on at the death. Epsom is clearly a fast horses track with the winner ridden like a non stayer, CoM, Eminent and Benbatl the speed horses, Capri is a 10f horse according to his trainer and then come the supposed guaranteed stayers. Douglas MacArthur, Best Solution, Glencadam Glory, Permian, Dubai Thunder, Venice Beach, Khalidi. Had this been a true stamina test Cracksman would have won easily. In my humble opinion of course.

All eyes are on the Curragh now, though I wouldn't mind if he missed it, which will suit him admirably then a month later the King George. I would fear a top class 3 year old filly in the King George but I wouldn't fear the non stayers Highland Reel, Jack Hobbs and Almanzor.

And finally, the Derby result shows again how misguided those people are who think AOB is a genius. He had the Derby winner in his yard, managed to get him beaten several times and only won a p oxy maiden. If that had been Curley the BHA would have been all over him. And I am convinced that wouldn't have happened if he were trained elsewhere. He would have been placed differently, raced differently, potentially been unbeaten and would not have come in unmentioned and under the radar. But that obviously suits a team owned by bookies where more money is made from bookmaking and from breeding.  Still the CoM backers clearly didn't mind being kept well and truly in the dark, treated like mushrooms then fed a good dose of c rap at the end. Good luck to you.

Awful night in London last night. Our hotel was nowhere near it thank goodness but what started off as an early night ended up well into the early hours. Had planned an early start, off to spend a few days with friends north of the border and hopefully get in few rounds of golf.

I think Cracksman was the moral winner yesterday, through gritted teeth. He was in the heat of the battle from the start and was still running on at the death. Epsom is clearly a fast horses track with the winner ridden like a non stayer, CoM, Eminent and Benbatl the speed horses, Capri is a 10f horse according to his trainer and then come the supposed guaranteed stayers. Douglas MacArthur, Best Solution, Glencadam Glory, Permian, Dubai Thunder, Venice Beach, Khalidi. Had this been a true stamina test Cracksman would have won easily. In my humble opinion of course.

All eyes are on the Curragh now, though I wouldn't mind if he missed it, which will suit him admirably then a month later the King George. I would fear a top class 3 year old filly in the King George but I wouldn't fear the non stayers Highland Reel, Jack Hobbs and Almanzor.

And finally, the Derby result shows again how misguided those people are who think AOB is a genius. He had the Derby winner in his yard, managed to get him beaten several times and only won a p oxy maiden. If that had been Curley the BHA would have been all over him. And I am convinced that wouldn't have happened if he were trained elsewhere. He would have been placed differently, raced differently, potentially been unbeaten and would not have come in unmentioned and under the radar. But that obviously suits a team owned by bookies where more money is made from bookmaking and from breeding.  Still the CoM backers clearly didn't mind being kept well and truly in the dark, treated like mushrooms then fed a good dose of c rap at the end. Good luck to you.

Sorry guys.It's been a long night. Will be back for the Curragh but in the US of A for the King George. Have a good one and be lucky. That includes you Loto and Uncle.

I can't help wondering what might have happened if Moore had been closer to the pace

Howellsy, I said the other week that I'm not a fan of how he rides the race. On watching it unfold my first thoughts were 'Here he goes again'. Have to admit though as I saw the good pace and him come with what looked a winning run I thought he'd got it right this time.

If any of these horses had been world beaters, I'm sure they would have won, but all I'm interested in as a punter is whether they could have won given a more tactically astute ride on the day

Yes I know what you mean. Like you say a true great would still win but it's obvious none of these horses are world beaters and a better ride can make all the difference to marginal distances. I'm still not a fan of riding the race like that as I think it can bugger a lot of horses up afterwards. I remember years ago a horse called Bellotto being given a ride like that and while admittedly he was also no world beater anyway he never seemed the same afterwards. In years following I've seen a lot of runners perform poorly straight after similar rides in the race.

There's no prejudice against him at all- just a feeling that this'll be another year when the Derby winner doesn't win again

Yes that's how I see it. Obviously if WoE is priced up way over the odds then he would become a tempting bet but that probably won't happen. The only thing that puts me off being confidently against him next time is the others behind him are obviously nothing special either. I know all the form ratings will have CoM as having improved greatly but I actually have him 2lbs lower than his best last year. That's a negligible difference really and is probably just due to the longer trip but I see him as having flatlined, which, along with the hard race, would make him vulnerable in the near future. Neither could I confidently back the third or fourth to turn the form around so I'll probably just be watching the Irish Derby without a bet.

Certainly think COM had a very hard race - Cracksman was coming back at him - I would not want to back him next time

I don't think Moore did anything wrong - the winner came from a long way back too but nothing else from behind was closing - WoE was "the last to challenge" (in the words of Pat Eddery) and may just be a very good horse

WoE was "the last to challenge" (in the words of Pat Eddery) and may just be a very good horse

I can't think he could be very good as it does look to be pretty ordinary form overall for a Derby. He could, however, turn out to be better than the rest again next time even if the race is run differently. At the moment though I'm negative about him as even though he undoubtedly improved yesterday he still only picked up the pieces when the others were spent. So in view of his previous form I'm not convinced until he does it again.

Certainly think COM had a very hard race

Another thing with CoM is he obviously gets pretty edgy about the whole racing scenario anyway, a hard race like that could affect him more than most.

I've probably overstated how much the pace affected the race, it was far from a pace meltdown or anything like that. I just think WoE was made to look better by coming with his run late as the others had given their all. CoM was noticeably tiring in the final yards, the others less so. WoE had some trouble in running but I wonder if that actually helped him by only allowing him to challenge late. He was travelling well at the time so a case could be made that he could've won by the same distance even if going for home earlier. For anyone who takes him at face value I imagine there will be some juice in his price next time, as this win is bound to be viewed with a bit of suspicion by some (including me), with plenty thinking the form can be turned around and he doesn't have the 'sexy' profile of his opponents. If he does follow up I'll have been wrong to doubt him and end up missing the boat.

winner could be a high chaparral type

fast improving stayer for me

Enjoyed reading the thread, plenty of informative and knowledgeable views and a little bit of needle too (there's no harm in that as long as it's not abusive).

Just a few random thoughts going forward:

Cliffs of Moher could turn out to be this year's US Army Ranger!
Four of the Ballydoyle horses finished in the first seven separated by just 5 lengths adding credence to the idea that they're relatively closely matched
Douglas MacArthur hung on pretty well having being on the pace from the off - earlier showed his battling qualities when winning the Derrinstown and I would n't be writing him off in the Irish Derby and beyond.
I also wonder whether The Anvil and Douglas MacArthur were prescribed pacemaking duties due to the draw - possibly something to bear in mind for future reference in similar mobhanded scenarios
I think Gosden might have run five with a view to combating Ballydoyle team tactics (three of his finished in last five) and for that reason I wonder if he might be reluctant to send Cracksman to the Irish Derby (think Tartan Bearer)
The racing media will draw parallels between Enable and Taghrooda with a view to the King George but I seem to recall it was Sheikh Hamdan who was keen on running in the King George, Cracksman more likely to run in King George and Enable take in Irish Oaks for me.
Eclipse would make sense for Eminent surely?
Finally, Salouen had an absolute nightmare - baulked and nearly brought down (between 3 and 2 out I think),still regained some momentum and tried to run on after that (eased a little towards the post) - he would have finished much closer with a better passage and can certainly win a nice race this summer.

AOB said Cliffs of Moher (CoM) could be Eclipse bound. Could he be on the same wavelength as some here regards CoM's Derby race eg he was coming to the end of his tether? I think the prospect of CoM winning a prestigious Group 1 12f is very limited.

If CoM does take the Eclipse (10f) route it seems unlikely Churchill will be up in distance until the Juddmonte International at the earliest; if CoM excels over 10f even less chance of Churchill doing so to avoid an encounter, I firmly believe.

Went to 100/1 on here. There comes a point where the price was just ridiculous for its chances. Whose the clown now Jedi Sophie.LaughLaugh

What are you talking about TMB???

Congrats if bet winner,well done,assume you bet half the field because wouldve been about 14th on my radar....But why im mentioned by you i have no clue!

Went to 100/1 on here. There comes a point where the price was just ridiculous for its chances. Whose the clown now Jedi Sophie.LaughLaugh

What are you talking about TRY MY BEST???

Gloating baffoon!

Well done if indeed did bet winner,around 14th on my radar....Couldnt bet with counterfeit!

Jun 3, 2017 -- 11:02AM, Jack Bauer '24' wrote:

It is most disappointing for COM backers to be beaten by an unfancied horse from the same yard.

so Jack, did Wave really get the 7f ? Sickened, didn't do any jumping up and down but tried to coax his to the finish line - the last 50yds was just too much, even Cracksman made nearly 1L back on him,

Such a long time in the planning, .. 1.12 in-play .. at least I didn't lose much, but oh what a sweet victory it would have been,

AO'B gutted !

Jun 3, 2017 -- 10:45AM, Figgis wrote:

Christ on a bike

awful, huh

did it COM go to 1.12 in running? damm didn't realise that. only had a select number of prices flashing up on my phone.

Jun 4, 2017 -- 12:14PM, Fallen Angel wrote:

did it COM go to 1.12 in running? damm didn't realise that. only had a select number of prices flashing up on my phone.

yeah - for the big races or those u've subscribed to on TF they give the in-play high/low + comments + ratings,

they give the in-play prices + ratings v soon, like withink 1hr

Jun 4, 2017 -- 11:06AM, impossible123 wrote:

AOB said Cliffs of Moher (CoM) could be Eclipse bound. Could he be on the same wavelength as some here regards CoM's Derby race eg he was coming to the end of his tether? I think the prospect of CoM winning a prestigious Group 1 12f is very limited.If CoM does take the Eclipse (10f) route it seems unlikely Churchill will be up in distance until the Juddmonte International at the earliest; if CoM excels over 10f even less chance of Churchill doing so to avoid an encounter, I firmly believe.

It's tempting to think so, and definitely the standard line at this stage, but I wonder if CoM is good enough ?? How good was yday ? Will he need to step up on that again to win a 10f G1 - if he does so well then surely they'll be kept apart,

Will be interesting to see how Ribchester gets on, and the other 4yo+ 1m, 1m2 horses

Brig .. Down but not out. I have had an awful fortnight backed Chelsea for £1200 in the FA Cup laid off some then thought playing well enough would at least get back in game 1 down backed them again switched over back again Moses walking had Rodendenron at 25/1 laid bit off to mean not supping smart price and cracksman EW at 33/1 went for glory really no other way describing madness put lay up for £500 at 2 for a few bottles of dom pom was done at 2.04 lowest got some ammo though for RA been backing Gold Cup favourite for ever since last year Hills went 2/1 then an even more generous 3/1 for a while for a jolly good wodge. Ended up winning should of and could have been more. Hindight is a wonderful thing. Be careful on them planes world is a dangerous place. Had also backed Churchill at 20/1 in Derby more down the drain.

Presently the next nominated target for Ribchester is the Queen Anne Stakes on 20th June where he is evens fav; the Eclipse is on the 8th July, and is too close to do both, in my opinion. However, Hawkbill (same ownership) is in the Eclipse too along with Eminent, Cracksman, Cliffs Of Moher (CoM) and (Churchill), the last named very unlikely post the defeat of CoM in the Derby.

I believe on a flat track Eminent and Cracksman (in the order of preference) would have the edge on CoM over 10f or 12f; which of these two horses (unlikely both) decide to take on CoM in the Eclipse the other will probably win the Irish Derby on 1st July if ridden with a bit more restraint even with Wings Of Eagles in the field, I believe.

That should have been Chelsea at 6/1. when we get to Arc time think we'll see mile and half english and irish horses are well down the pecking order French will be miles in front wouldn't be suprised to see japanese have a very good one or two. Like Figgis says hard to know how good winner was i'll throw a couple of bob at it in the Irish derby because price might be value there you go. probably more down the drain.

Will the winner Wings Of Eagles (WoE) win another 12f Group 1 race again? Probably no, is my opinion; will he run in the Leger after winning the Derby? Only a maybe,...if he had finished 2nd it would have been an emphatic yes!

O/T
There are more talented horses in the Arc than last year's eg Almanzor, the rejuvenated Jack Hobbs and Seventh Heaven if the ground is good/good to firm, to name three; the Japanese ones are a formidable threat if they would secure non-Japanese riders for them.

so Jack, did Wave really get the 7f ? Cry Sickened, didn't do any jumping up and down but tried to coax his to the finish line - the last 50yds was just too much, even Cracksman made nearly 1L back on him,


Wave certainly stayed 7 furlongs as a 2yo and CoM stayed the distance yesterday, he was just outstayed by a much stronger stayer who was more suited to how the race was run.

I don't know how you think Cracksman made nearly a length back on him when CoM was never more than half a length ahead of him at any time. I agree with Figgis that Ryan Moore does not ride this race well. He ties to make up ground in the hottest part of the race and uses up too much energy doing so.

Cracksman was given a perfect ride by Dettori, had CoM been given the exact same ride I think he would have won. He would have been asked to deliver his effort slightly later and not use up his energy making up ground on horses being asked to quicken. Moore needs to watch how Piggott used to ride this race.

As for the future, the biggest factor for these young horses is how they come out of this race and how much improvement they have to come. That is impossible to predict so I wouldn't have a strong view about which of the first four will be best in future and I certainly would not back the winner at a short price to confirm his superiority.

I think those that were up with the pace early on paid the ultimate price in the end eg Douglas Macarthur, Best Solution, Permian and Venice Beach, and only Cracksman managed to finish in the frame - an extremely credible performance for a horse so inexperienced.

On the other hand Wings Of Eagles, Cliffs Of Moher, Eminent, Benbatl (last at one stage) and Glencadam Glory all came from behind to finish in to achieve their best position, I believe. But the sting in the tail was the winner came from even further back than his stable number 1 Cliffs Of Moher to nick it.

Cliffs Of Moher stays 12f but is extremely venerable to one that stays 12f in a truly run race. Also, I believe Cliffs Of Moher was definitely running on fumes at the end; he was not going away from the 3rd or 4th who was unsuited to the track and had a troubled passage in running too.

All to play for in the Irish equivalent on 1st July.

Douglas Macarthur ran an amazing race to be beaten less than 5 lengths considering he and The Anvil went off so fast they were largely ignored by the rest. He has had a very hard race and may never recover his best form, but hopefully not.

Wings Of Eagles was an unlucky winner.
He had bad luck twice in the straight and still won.
Visually he looks to have a big head, which often means a big neck and a big front and big engine.
He probably was lucky to be running at his own pace at the back of the field.

"Wings Of Eagles was an unlucky winner"

Try saying that to the Coolmore boys!

No worries, Wings of Eagles will be doing battle with his cousins at the Cheltenham Festival next Spring.

Even by your dreadful  standards that's a ridiculous thing to say I123.

I still think Waldgeist would have won the Derby particularly off the pace that the Ballydoyle pacemakers set. There is a quote by the owner in the paper today "Andre Fabre thought for the future the French Derby would be better because it is easier. Epsom is a tough race and we want to go on with him. He will improve more and the Arc is the perfect distance."

I do not know if it has been mentioned but an obvious comparison of the Epsom Derby winner Winged of Eagles would be Frozen Fire. The latter showed a bit of form most notably his second in the Dante before being out with the washing at Epsom and then winning the Irish Derby. He was also overpriced but was greatly assisted by being held up off a strong pace - he went onto win nothing thereafter.

Well done to anyone who backed Winged of Eagles, he was overpriced based on his dad winning the corresponding race and his price in comparison with Duke of Venice who he wasn't far behind at Chester when he still looked green that day. That said, his form would not be good enough to win a typical Derby.

I agree with Clerkmore in that given the pace, Waldgeist would have won the Epsom Derby, he would have been my ew play in the race so I am gutted that he didn't take his chance.

Figgis - how are you, well done with the Oaks winner and obviously unlucky to get touched off in the Derby. I like Jack Hobbs for the Arc, I think he has improved this season and will continue to do so given he is a son of Halling. What are your thoughts and anyone else who wants to chip in?

I do not know if it has been mentioned but an obvious comparison of the Epsom Derby winner Winged of Eagles would be Frozen Fire. The latter showed a bit of form most notably his second in the Dante before being out with the washing at Epsom and then winning the Irish Derby. He was also overpriced but was greatly assisted by being held up off a strong pace - he went onto win nothing thereafter.

Well done to anyone who backed Winged of Eagles, he was overpriced based on his dad winning the corresponding race and his price in comparison with Duke of Venice who he wasn't far behind at Chester when he still looked green that day. That said, his form would not be good enough to win a typical Derby.

I agree with Clerkmore in that given the pace, Waldgeist would have won the Epsom Derby, he would have been my ew play in the race so I am gutted that he didn't take his chance.

Figgis - how are you, well done with the Oaks winner and obviously unlucky to get touched off in the Derby. I like Jack Hobbs for the Arc, I think he has improved this season and will continue to do so given he is a son of Halling. What are your thoughts and anyone else who wants to chip in?

I do not know if it has been mentioned but an obvious comparison of the Epsom Derby winner Winged of Eagles would be Frozen Fire. The latter showed a bit of form most notably his second in the Dante before being out with the washing at Epsom and then winning the Irish Derby. He was also overpriced but was greatly assisted by being held up off a strong pace - he went onto win nothing thereafter.

Well done to anyone who backed Winged of Eagles, he was overpriced based on his dad winning the corresponding race and his price in comparison with Duke of Venice who he wasn't far behind at Chester when he still looked green that day. That said, his form would not be good enough to win a typical Derby.

I agree with Clerkmore in that given the pace, Waldgeist would have won the Epsom Derby, he would have been my ew play in the race so I am gutted that he didn't take his chance.

Figgis - how are you, well done with the Oaks winner and obviously unlucky to get touched off in the Derby. I like Jack Hobbs for the Arc, I think he has improved this season and will continue to do so given he is a son of Halling. What are your thoughts and anyone else who wants to chip in?

Sorry for posting three times, computer factor...but it was a good post!

Hi Swagger, I wouldn't knock Jack Hobbs's Arc chances it's just that I'm not really sure what to make of the Meydan win. Seventh Heaven won easily next time but that was a race she was fully entitled to win on last year's form so there's no proof yet that she's improved. Postponed was subsequently retired, Highland Reel obviously didn't really perform and the others weren't up to much by Gp1 standards. The time wasn't great, which was due to the pace and no reflection on the winner, but it adds another element to the doubts about the form. I'm also a bit wary in future about a horse that has had to skip nearly a whole season due to problems. They sometimes come back to run a good race or two but aren't always able to maintain that form. All sounds a bit negative I know, it's just that I'd like to see a bit more from him this year before backing him, even though I'm bound to be taking a shorter price by waiting for further evidence. I won't be having an Arc bet yet but my long term pick would be Enable, depending on how Gosden campaigns her from now.

Waldgeist (4/1) is in the Irish Derby long with the Epsom Derby winner and 3rd Cracksman (fav) so soon we'll know how good Waldgeist is. But brace oneself for a different result, if so.

If Wings Of Eagles wins the Irish Derby will you promise to leave the forum?

Brigust- Cracksman was the moral winner. FFS give the game up.

I have made no secret, and will make no apologies, for thinking that the Coolmore operation is, in my opinion, being run by and for a bunch of crooks. They run their horses in teams in order to maximise their own chances and to minimise the opposition's chances. And anyone who watched the way they manipulated the 2000 Guineas this year will know they have no scruples or morals as far as the racing public are concerned. They run their horse unfit, tactically and they are often ridden unethically and potentially illegally but the leaders of our sport and the media turn a blind eye because of the power they wield.
It may not be illegal but it is clearly immoral.

So to answer your question TMB with the Coolmore mob finishing in 1st and 2nd place I do believe Cracksman was the moral winner. And I certainly will not be taking advice from you about what I feel is best for the sport of my choice.

blah blah blah. What a poor loser

You should be very careful calling people crooks who might just take exception and take you to the cleaners. Obviously you didn't lay off hahaha. What a mug.

THE 2018 Investec DERBY at 4.30 on 2nd June in Epsom Downs...

449 Entries out today (next scratching 6th March - then 3rd April)

Catch Me ifyoucan
Open a 2018 Derby thread

Too much guesswork, even as the race approaches. Great spectacle, went to Epsom last year. Sense of occasion, imo and simply cant not have a bet. Been lucky but don't think a really fruitful betting medium overall