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lewisham ranger
12 Sep 15 13:26
Date Joined: 08 Aug 02
| Topic/replies: 5,280 | Blogger: lewisham ranger's blog
No two year old has impressed me as much since the mighty Frankel, ironically enough when he won on the same card....
Pause Switch to Standard View emotionless 2000 guineas
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Report unclepuncle September 12, 2015 5:00 PM BST
12/1 was a perfectly decent price (only 8/1 now), but can you trust Godolphins English opeartion to actually get a horse ready for the Guineas? I know Dawn Apporach won for them he was just a Jim Bolger horse running in their silks.
Report lewisham ranger September 12, 2015 5:43 PM BST
yes they would be better off keeping it in newmarket over the winter, but almost certainly won't.
Report Howellsy September 12, 2015 8:24 PM BST
Very ordinary time in comparison to the later 7f race. Frankel broke the clock in his Donny romp.
Report Andrew in Sweden September 13, 2015 7:04 AM BST
Frankel never did the clock in any of his 14 wins, the Doncaster time was 1m 24.83s, slow by 1.53s.

My favourite horse. It was actually this race that I thought he might be more than useful, I backed him in every subsequent race except the Greenham and travelled to UK on 4 occasions to watch him.
Report cryoftruth September 13, 2015 8:09 AM BST
The time may have been ordinary but he won so very easily he could clearly go a deal faster than that.

The 2 he beat are both rated by RPRs as being 100+ rated and he treated them like platers.

Only 2 runs had already a really good group 2 winner. He is obviously a group 1 horse with serious scope to go on from this.

7/1 on Betfair, given he is sure to go for the Dewhurst and unless it's a real bog win it, looks more than fair. I have been around long enough to have seen very short priced ante post Guineas favourites with less substance to their form than Emotionless.

I see comparisons with Frankel a bit unfair. He was undoubtedly the best horse I ever saw, and I remember as far back at Mill Reef and the Brigadeer. Secretariat would be the only other horse to compare to Frankel and with USA doping laws.... Comparing horses to Frankel is fun but fatuous. Emotionless may be a champion, he looks like champion 2yo. But Frankel was rated 148 at the end by Timeform. He could have given Goldn Horn and Treve a stone!
Report Andrew in Sweden September 13, 2015 8:30 AM BST
It's ridiculous to compare Emotionless and Frankel at this stage and as impressive as the former was yesterday and I feel he's a worthy ante-post favourite for the 2000, I would want 10's minimum, there's still several races in the 2015 calendar to show us more candidates.

I remember the BG/MR race well (they were actually due to meet over 10f later but MF got injured) and I think BG and Tudor Minstrel are the only horses who would have given Frankel a race over 8f.
Report Andrew in Sweden September 13, 2015 8:30 AM BST
* MF = MR
Report lewisham ranger September 13, 2015 8:56 AM BST
Dewhurst could be interesting, especially if you get an impressive winner of the national stakes today

could potentially be emotionless vs airforce blue vs that Gosden beast which won on the Donny card on the friday, Tashweeq, I also thought that was very impressive because he swatted a good yardstick in Hallick who for me is also a very nice horse

Throw in horses like Herald the dawn, Recorder, Knife Edge who won at ascot recently, not to mention others, and I think this years crop of two year olds could be very good indeed
Report Figgis September 13, 2015 9:02 AM BST
Howellsy would be referring to the comparative time on the Doncaster card that day, which clock watchers seemed unanimous in saying was an outstanding time performance, rather than the bare time, which most people agree is meaningless where level of performance is concerned.
Report Howellsy September 13, 2015 9:02 AM BST
Andrew, you compute speed figures by comparing the times with other races on the card. I no longer have access to my 2010 figures sadly, but I recall awarding Frankel a huge one. Looking back at the results from that day, I may have overestimated it a bit, but even so there is no way Emotionless could be given anything more than a mediocre speed figure yesterday. Of course, I was very impressed with his performance in many ways, but he does have to prove he can do it off stronger early fractions. I hope he will do just that as I think it would be great if Godolphin finally had a top miler.
Report Andrew in Sweden September 13, 2015 9:18 AM BST
Guys, I appreciate comparing times with races on the actual day is far better than comparing standard times, my initial post was in response to Howellsy stating Frankel did the clock ...... he didn't Wink

Changing the subject, let's hope that some of the Gosden and AOB big guns turn up to meet Emotionless in the Dewhurst.
Report lewisham ranger September 13, 2015 9:55 AM BST
Any views on the National stakes today Figgis mate? I think Air Chief Marshall might be overpriced...
Report Stevie Gerrard September 13, 2015 10:09 AM BST
Time was ordinary but there was a fairly strong headwind yesterday and in the portland and the g2 7f race there was plenty of pace on and horses in behind were getting the benefit of cover from the wind. In the opener the pace was slower and they had no cover from the wind because of the smaller field and also tacked over to the stands side instead of running in a straight line. So plenty of excuses for the time being quite poor.
Report Figgis September 13, 2015 10:20 AM BST
Lewisham Ranger, I don't have a strong view on the race and wouldn't disagree with the market on the front two. I have Herald The Dawn as next best but personally I wasn't impressed with his performance last time. AFB is best on his Coventry run but I'm not sure what to make of the Phoenix Stakes, the comparative time was very slow for such an event and Buratino obviously didn't run to form. AFB looked extremely impressive to the eye but I don't know if he's improved or it was just so easy for him with Buratino below par. Hopefully a stronger pace should reveal more today but at the moment I don't have any of the runners as Guineas class so don't blame anyone looking to get the front two beaten but I'll be sitting this one out.
Report Stevie Gerrard September 13, 2015 10:27 AM BST
Forgot to say the wind changed from a SW direction at 2pm to a more westerly one after 3pm so was a tricky day for doing speed figures really. I'd go with my visual impression that he looks a top class horse and I did give Ibn Malik quite a big figure when he won his maiden so with those 2 pulling well clear then it surely has to be a decent performance. Hopefully we'll see exactly how good he is next time.
Report penzance September 13, 2015 11:09 AM BST
6,7/1 for a race about 8 months away,
with Godolphin training him.Should be
that just to get there.
Report Stevie Gerrard September 13, 2015 11:35 AM BST
Agreed penzance, that's the problem as even if you think this horse is the real deal that price is pretty awful especially in view of the connections. I'm afraid ante post betting looks dead these days, not that I've ever really been much of ante post punter anyhow but I'm sure the prices used to be a lot more generous than that.
Report lewisham ranger September 13, 2015 11:41 AM BST
Thanks Figgis. At the moment backed Air force one with a saver on the O'Brien number two, but to be honest with you I'm tempted to switch to something else in the race, Final frontier has also impressed me so far with his battling qualities although it'll be a tough ask for him.

BTW do Godolphin still send their two year olds to Dubai for the winter? And if so, does anyone think the effect of sending young horses so far and back again might have an effect on their chances in the guineas.

I only ask because I noticed Gosden saying the other day how he was reluctant to send Jack Hobbs to France for a trial race, so soon before the Arc, which was why he preferred to run it at Kempton.

I think the worse thing that can happen is for Emotionless to win the Dewhurst and then they send it to the breeders cup, I can't recall any two year old running in the breeders cup and then going on to win a guineas.
Report Figgis September 13, 2015 11:54 AM BST
Stevie, thanks for the info about the wind change, as for me the collective signs from the first race just does not compute with a poor final time and I suspect strict comparisons will be misleading in this instance.
Report bosra shame September 13, 2015 12:55 PM BST
From memory, didn't Sky Lantern run unplaced in the Breeders Cup and go on to win the Guineas ?
Report Stevie Gerrard September 13, 2015 1:09 PM BST
Figgis, I still get a big figure for Limato though. Weather he is as good as that looks I don't know as he got plenty of cover behind a wall of horses whilst the leaders went too fast. But still it was quite some performance. Really we need weather stations at the track taking readings at the start of each race for it to be accurate. The weather station the met office used isn't that close to the track so a lot of time it's guesswork.
Report Figgis September 13, 2015 1:32 PM BST
SG, no I mean I just wouldn't use a strict comparison where the first race is concerned, as it looks out of step with the rest of the card to me. I don't believe the runners in the first race are that slow and I don't believe the poor final time can be entirely blamed on a slow early pace, even though a strict comparison would lead to that conclusion, as everything else about the race tells me they didn't go that much of a crawl.
Report Stevie Gerrard September 13, 2015 2:07 PM BST
73.97 unofficial time for curragh opener, good to soft possibly. Not sure if that will suit fav in National stakes. Looks a tricky race to call now
Report Stevie Gerrard September 13, 2015 4:20 PM BST
Quite impresses by that Air Force Blue, seems to be progressing well and a mile on quicker ground should be ideal.
Report penzance September 13, 2015 4:27 PM BST
4s with some firms,need your head tested
if you take them odds.
Report lewisham ranger September 13, 2015 5:14 PM BST
Interesting that Limato ran the final two furlongs almost two seconds quicker than Emotionless did and the final time was faster as well... perhaps I was getting carried away with the visual impression...however Limato has sprinter speed so maybe that's not so relevant, as Emotionless is going to be better over a mile

Be interesting class with him vs Air force blue in the Dewhurst anyway, assuming they both turn up... although Ballydoyle have a history of dodging these big clashes they might be tempted to go with this fellow.

He looks like a heavyweight of a horse and dwarfed his rivals today. Be interesting to see if he can do the same over the pond- reminds me a bit of Hawk Wing.

Emotionless also has that alpha male I'll dominate my rivals on the bridle sort of thing. When they clash, something's going to give.

Personally I'd favour the Godolphin horse despite my concerns about the slow time.
Report Stevie Gerrard September 13, 2015 5:37 PM BST
Where did you get those sectionals from LR?
Report Stevie Gerrard September 13, 2015 6:01 PM BST
Just done some timings myself, not easy but yes does look a bit like pace collapsed in race and maybe Emotionless not as good as that looked at the time.
Report lewisham ranger September 13, 2015 6:55 PM BST
I just did it roughly, although I must admit that method is often hugely flawed as camera angles are inconsistent due to where they run on the track, although it does give you some idea I suppose.
Report Stevie Gerrard September 13, 2015 7:01 PM BST
I clocked around 39s for the last 3f for Emotionless so it backs up what you say LR. The horses were finishing slowly in that race and I think the pace into that headwind strung them out. It does temper ones enthusiasm for that performance especially when compared to Limato sprinting clear. I'll reserve judgement now until his next race. cheers
Report Figgis September 13, 2015 8:55 PM BST
Surprised the Air Force Blue time was so much slower than the Moyglare, as I didn't notice them go much slower when watching. It's becoming another Gleneagles situation of not knowing how good he might be, but it does seem as though he's probably improved significantly since the Coventry.
Report jedi sophie September 13, 2015 11:32 PM BST
wouldnt give Treve a stone!!not round longchamp anyway...she is top drawer,as was Frankel.cant compare..
Report Stevie Gerrard September 14, 2015 10:37 AM BST
Figgis, timeform manual sectionals have 36.78 last 3f for Air Force Blue compared to 37.52 for Minding though that doesn't completely explain the time difference, I certainly felt watching they went quite a bit slower for the opening 2f in Air Force Blue's race. Perhaps that and some wind effects might explain it. At the moment I'm not seeing anything really jumping out as a good bet for the guineas. would be wanting double figures for both horses really. Perhaps somethimg else will come out. Any of the French ones look any good yet?
Report Figgis September 14, 2015 12:21 PM BST
I've not seen anything yet either, SG, but AFB and Smash Williams are the ones I'm keeping an open mind about so far.
Report Stevie Gerrard September 14, 2015 12:53 PM BST
I'd forgotten about SW, yes gave him 2 decent figures now, good debut figure followed by a very good one next time although just that 6f hcap to compare it to really. Rockaway Valley gave Air Force Blue a good race fto and I was expecting both to progress into decent horses after that but RV hasn't gone on as well as AFB but I think the first time cheek pieces enabled him to produce his best against SW but he then ran a bit below that on Saturday. The breeding of SW is a strange one being by Fracas and out of a dam who won over 5f, the dam's sister did win the Irish guineas but strange this Fracas producing a horse with this speed as he wasn't a top class horse by any means. Could be an interesting Dewhurst should all 3 line up.
Report ilikewavingatbuses September 14, 2015 12:54 PM BST
Godolphin horse= wont be winning.

gl tho,hope u get a run.
Report ffs September 14, 2015 3:00 PM BST
"BTW do Godolphin still send their two year olds to Dubai for the winter? And if so, does anyone think the effect of sending young horses so far and back again might have an effect on their chances in the guineas."

I think so - but not Jim Bolger's - that should tell you the 'benefit' - some have had success because they climate was very cold where they were - Tesio for example, but that's Northern Italy where it's basically freezing hard and snowing.

Nothing wrong with Irish / English climate for young horses.
Report deepingfox September 14, 2015 10:22 PM BST
Godolphin keep the pre-Royal Ascot horses in Newmarket now, there's far more that don't travel to Dubai now c/w the past.
Report Madhu September 15, 2015 2:00 AM BST
I'm sure I read somewhere that Charming Thought was staying in Newmarket last year?
Report Millerracing67 September 15, 2015 2:57 PM BST
It was a very impressive performance from Emotionless at Donny & he looks to have a gd bit of size & scope to make a very gd 3yo.
I would still have Air Force Blue in front of him atm as i think he looks top drawer & again like Emotionless he looks to have plenty of scope to make the grade at 3yo.
It would be great if both lined-up in the Dewhurst on gd ground.
Report Jack Bauer '24' September 15, 2015 7:03 PM BST
Air Force Blue is very reminiscent of Hawk wing in both looks and racing style. He's got a big engine and a faster early pace would suit him perfectly.
Report bosra shame September 16, 2015 8:19 AM BST
Air Force Blue has more speed than Hawk Wing did at this stage in their development - there is no way Hawk Wing would have showed a turn of foot over 6 furlongs like AFB did in the Phoenix Stakes.
Using Birchwood as a marker, there is a form link to the two of them - Birchwood was beaten just under 5 lengths in the National Stakes by Air Force Blue and by a length and a half by Ibn Malik ( admittedly hampered in running ) at Goodwood. Emotionless beat Ibn Malik by three and a half lengths at Donny ... so on that collateral form line, not a lot between them
Report Jack Bauer '24' September 16, 2015 6:47 PM BST
He's got plenty of speed and will stay the mile in the Guineas no problem. Anyone on at decent prices should be pretty happy.
Report Millerracing67 September 16, 2015 7:31 PM BST
I am (14s with power) Cool
Report Millerracing67 September 16, 2015 7:31 PM BST
Air Force Blue (that is) Wink
Report Jack Bauer '24' September 16, 2015 7:39 PM BST
Well done. I have some decent bets at double figures too and am quite pleased at this stage with not much else looking too hot considering it's almost October.
Report lewisham ranger September 16, 2015 8:47 PM BST
Air Force Blue looked good so far but must be at least a slight doubt he will see out the guineas trip- neither the dam nor the sire ran beyond seven furlongs?

Prefer Emotionless myself. Unbeaten unlike the O'Brien horse and the clue is in the name- the jockey is generally E"Motionless" Wink
Report impossible123 September 17, 2015 12:09 PM BST
I like Emotionless too - very impressive in his last race. Despite Air Force Blue being the 'fav' for the 2000G Emotionless is the clear 'fav' for the Dewhurst next month; the fly in the ointment is Shalaa - will he turn up? What a race if all three take part!
Report Millerracing67 September 17, 2015 4:33 PM BST
Shalaa is middle park bound am sure, don't view him as a gns horse myself, sprinter.
If both of the other 2 line-up in the Dewhurst my ££ would be on Air Force Blue who has the impressive performances at G1 level winning form already.
As for next yr i dont see the mile being any prob to him.
Report appformat September 18, 2015 12:33 AM BST
Think Emotionless has lot of gears.
Report impossible123 September 18, 2015 9:02 AM BST
Lets hope Emotionless and Air Force Blue turn at the Dewhurst next month.
Report RBoyd86 March 25, 2016 4:47 AM GMT

Sep 12, 2015 -- 2:24PM, Howellsy wrote:

Very ordinary time in comparison to the later 7f race. Frankel broke the clock in his Donny romp.

ill reply but almost wont since miller racing has posted on here.......

Q1   Shallaa is commenwealth bound thats obvious but its been obvious for 6 months and people where still talking about 2G JG is a proper trainer, doesnt strecth them out when no need.

Question 2 HOWELLSY are you my old teacher lol? NMKT? If so Pm me.

Q3... Fav is solid.... 2 Horse race, and E is available 16-1 1/4 odds... Surgery went well. Hes a monster. Win, lose or draw...

Report Howellsy March 25, 2016 3:31 PM GMT
Hello Mr Boyd, yes but prefer 'former' to 'old'! I've been reading your posts on Emotionless with interest. Let's see if he turns up fit and well on the day. Can't have him myself. I've no idea what Pm means!
Report RBoyd86 March 31, 2016 4:53 PM BST
lol ok my former teacher! There is more than one way to skin a cat is a phrase im not exactly keen on but very true here. My point being that as when i mentioned Emotionless was trading at 16-1. Imo the race is a 2 horse race as i stated and i had some positive reports (theres ben a lot since) and you know how newmarket is (ive never bar frankel known everyone to know about a horse before its debut more than EMOTIONLESS) and what happens to a talking horse in newmarket, generally win or lose the money comes. Add to the fact that if u scrubbed out his dewhurst run then hed be around the 3-1 mark now (and you can excuse it due to a legitimate injury) I figured that at 16-1 it was a great back to lay opportunity. Now of course there are risks (reg injry etc) but it looks like im on course to be able to lay him off for a nice free bet on the win part (money as i said would come, has started to come B365 16-1 to 10-1) last few days. However the main part is that im going too end up with a 4-1 place bet on a horse that may arguably may not be more tahn 7-1 on the day to win. Ive been backing him daily ew from 16-1 to 10-1 and i expect to be in a very nice position race day with a gd free bet on the win part and a very nice place bet that i will keep (at this point in time)
Report RBoyd86 March 31, 2016 4:56 PM BST
so it not really that i fancy him its that i knew the wrong so yea i think hes an extrememly talented horse but im more interested in the fact that there was a lot of juice in the price. Ps i also said there would be a positive report on him and that interview CA did it Dubai showed you what he thought of the horse. And we are not talking about some AOB "LISTEN, hes the best weve ever trained CRAP" he reels out every 5 minutes.

Pm means private message lol You can do that on here.
Report impossible123 April 2, 2016 10:08 PM BST
Charlie Appleby could not stop talking about Emotionless in the Dubai Preview interview, and today post their success in the Lincoln the Chief Executive of Godolphin, Mr John Ferguson, again spoke about how pleased he was with the present progress of Emotionless.
Report unclepuncle April 3, 2016 8:54 AM BST
Ferguson said he was doing well on CH4 but also said he had a lot to prove and that Air Force Blue looked exceptional.
Think they will be delighted to be second tbh.
Report impossible123 April 3, 2016 10:45 AM BST
Godolphin has two bullets for the race, one (Buratino) with a victory over AFB on good/good to firm going and the Emotionless ran with an injury after leaving the stalls; I agree AFB is a worthy 'fav' but at evens is far too skinny despite beating Massaat convincingly.
Report metro john April 6, 2016 10:58 PM BST
The fav looks way too short, for me Royal Artillery looks the value and still unexposed, but not that keen on War Fronts?, still JG got form lines everywhereLoveCool
Report RBoyd86 April 7, 2016 11:56 AM BST
very nice horse RA but too much of a step up and they'd be mad to not exploit that hip mark. JG to good a trainer to ruin that surely.
Report Howellsy April 14, 2016 9:31 PM BST
Have you laid off yet Boydie? What did you make of the gallop? I suppose we don't know what weights were carried but it'd be hard to be positive about the visual impression.
Report impossible123 April 18, 2016 6:03 PM BST
I wonder if the stable is still backing Emotionless post that gallop.
Report geoff m April 18, 2016 6:13 PM BST
Nobody seems to be backing Emotionless after that gallop continues to drift.
Report sinfin April 18, 2016 6:16 PM BST
at the moment I can see both races being small fields under 10 in each
Report impossible123 April 18, 2016 7:46 PM BST
To be honest I'd be taken aback if he runs in the 2000G given same ground condition.
Report keynes April 18, 2016 8:21 PM BST
but only thing really being backed is the fav. with two weeks to go, market is absurdly illiquid.
Report FELTFAIR April 21, 2016 9:01 AM BST
Oh dear.
Report Sankara April 21, 2016 9:18 AM BST
What a surprise.
Report unclepuncle April 21, 2016 9:21 AM BST
Report kincsem April 21, 2016 1:01 PM BST
I'll be looking for something at big odds.
4/6 Air Force Blue is a crazy price even if he is "the best I've ever trained" again.
Report elmasters April 21, 2016 1:20 PM BST
very very disapointed

first antepost bet and also my largest ever horse bet dowm the drain
Report GILLJAYSMOUSE April 21, 2016 1:22 PM BST
I would have layed it straight after that racecourse gallop, it was terrible.
Report lingbleed April 21, 2016 11:02 PM BST
had him too , also had him in a double with first victory in the 1000 , so now am hoping first victory  grows wings . For the record am not confident
Report go-all-in April 22, 2016 9:54 AM BST
Feels like Richard Pankhurst all over again. Though thankfully I haven't lost as much as last year!

Never again will I back a Godolphin inmate antepost. If anybody sees me even suggesting it, please have me sectioned.
Report brain dead jockeys April 27, 2016 9:30 PM BST
when horses are not working well why dont godolphin just admit it and stop the nonesense
Report Tascro April 28, 2016 10:36 AM BST
first victory entered in pretty polly. Looks like an oaks route. think she is very interesting
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