Tingle Creek

surely the tizzards should look down this route there not gonna win the KG if they start know, was thinking the same for dynaste could be worth a go at 2 mile on heavy.

Can't find the entries. Has it been re-opened due to lack of interest?

Well, found mention of the entries but as usual the racing sites are sh!t slow at getting the list of horses out.

Finally found it. Some wishful thinking going on in that lot. Mad Moose???
Alderwood
Balder Succes
Ballycasey
Claret Cloak
Dodging Bullets
Felix Yonger
God's Own
Hinterland
Mad Moose
Oscar Hill
Oscar Whisky
Pepite Rose
Somersby
Third Intention
Twinlight
Vukovar
William's Wishes
Wishfull Thinking

Big field possible but  with the weather set pretty fair the going should be decent and I'd be disappointed if the old guard were good enough.

Balder Success @ 100/30 seems fair enough and, if he runs, I'd also be keen on Third Intention @ 25/1 with a view to laying off in running at single figures.

Balder Succes missed Cheltenham as they don't thing he likes the track, but his only run at Sandown was also hugely below par. Maybe he is a flat track bully?

Anyone happen to know whether Ballycasey is likely to turn up? Would definitely be interesting imo.

I don't know but he is also entered in John Durkan at Punchestown on Sunday, I'd've thought Twinlight would go to Cork on Sunday to run in the Hilly Way chase he won last year.

Don't think I'll be getting involved in this until final decs - there's decent cards in Ireland at Navan,Cork and Punchestown over the weekend and Oscar Hill, Pepite Rose, Vukovar and Wishfull Thinking are all entered in the Peterborough Chase at Huntingdon on Sunday as well as this.

Worst tingle creek field I can remember.

Moscow Flyer v Azertyuiop v Well Chief it is not.

I would side with Balder Success too. I think his run last time out was good enough especially given he blundered and lost his chance after that. It is never easy winning handicaps in the 160s so I reckon they must have been aiming him at this race. Doubts are who rides him and the trainer does not often deliver in these top races despite all the ammunition he gets. I hope he wins though as he's in my TTF list.

If I could stay 2 mile I would run in this myself! Whats gone wrong a shortage of 2 mile hurdlers and chasers and no obvious outstanding Gold Cup horses either. Well there are a few 2m hurdlers but very few competitive grade 1s.

Ballycasey the stand out horse to me as well. PP are as low as 7-1 for the QMCC against a top priced 16-1 which suggests they think he will be campaigned over the minimum.

wdwdwd

Balder loves small fields, think this one will be a little too big for him and there will be too many for him to bully

This is a very weak renewal, but without a strong fav I'd be tempted to see out a double figure winner. Still looking at the card

Twinlight shortlisted if ground comes up softish

Although Millins chase record over here is dire!!!!!! hmmmm

Twinlight a bit of a strange one - not a horse I would trust. I doubt if he is grade 1 class but I've been wrong before. I would imagine he goes for Hilly Way chase in Cork which he won last year.

I know it sounds mad, but Mad Moose for a place? lol

Ballycasey taken out of John Durkan and not entered in Hilly Way so looks increasingly likely he will end up here, Felix Younger and Twinlight both have alternative engagements in Ireland.

Backed MAD MOOSE at 120, few a few quid on him lol
Down to 70's now

Just need him to be declared, then for him to actually run and not refuse to race (AGAIN), then to actually put in a good run after a year off........... and win



Not asking for much! lol

Should PP be taken notice of CCM? Them and B0yles are habitually different on Irish runners in most markets.

I would say they are worth listening to Sint.

Interesting post by Tory on the tell Us More thread...

FAO CCM

The guy who does Road To Cheltenham at the oddschecker site has picked up on something you noticed. Quoted below.

"Finally, some bookmakers make it their business to have a mole in a top yard. Last season when Pricewise put Annie Power up for the Champion Hurdle, Paddy Power were a stand out 14/1, (10/1 was the biggest price other layers in the Pricewisebox were offering.) During the summer Paddy Power seemed the first to know that Faugheen was staying hurdling and Vautour and Un De Sceaux were going chasing. It’s interesting they offer only 7/1 on Ballycasey for the Champion Chase, (Stan James go 16/1). Whilst they’re ducking Vautour generally, they are especially under the general price for the JLT, (they offer 9/4, top price is 100/30). In the Gold Cup they’re top price Champagne Fever (12/1) and Sir Des Champs (25/1) and bottom price Boston Bob, (14/1 – top price 25/1). If you’re thinking of backing a Willie Mullins horse ante-post, it’s worth checking Paddy Power’s prices."

Anyway, Tell Us More is best price at Paddy for the Supreme, and Paddy has him shortest for the Neptune.

Sorry, posted by Tucho,

Dodging Bullets for me. He may have taken longer to get fully fit than they thought and seems to be the one who will be best suited by the conditions on Saturday. It is a pity that there is a lack of star quality this year.

Williams Wishes e/w 33-1. Stable going well, kept dossing up in handicaps before injury inc over C&D, not ground dependent, nice return over hurdles and it could be a very average renewal. Boom!

Just backed Oscar Whisky at 8/1. Think this race could be right up his street. With the front two in the market questions to answer over whos going to beat who this time around and are their form up to the level of this ones? His run in the PP where he jumped fluently and only got tired in the closing stages will bring him on a bundle and although 2 miles might not be his optimum i think he could well get away with it at this track and on his preferred testing conditions in this field!

Will Ballycasey be coming over for this?

Oh and of course i have only backed OW due to him being 8/1 and 8.4 on here lol as I always tend to do anyways, above are reasons to which i would have just done him on the day otherwise.

What race were you watching STS? OW's PP run was almost the opposite of what you just described. He jumped ok, but very slowly at times (particularly the last three when the pace was lifted), and then he stayed on really well to the line and would have been second a furlong on. Even so, I still think he's interesting at the prices if the ground doesn't dry up too much. He needs to be a lot quicker through the air at 2m however.

I am a big OW fan but just don't see him as a 2m chaser. Yes soft ground may help his chances,but I just don't think hes quick enough at the distance. I am hoping he don't run cos I will have to back him and will probably lose money,rather that than he actually proves me wrong and I aint backed him!!

I like him for the Ryanair though.

I honestly don't think he will need to prove himself as a 2mile chaser to win this. Think he could prove to be the class in the race. Neither in front of him in the betting achieved quite as much as he over hurdles, a churdle 3rd being one of his good runs. With only a little bit of improvement to which his seasonal debut could give he could be the one to give them most to think about. Would be great compo to the team Hendo

yeh,you may be right. Shall wait till the final decs and see his opposition.

Current market tells me he's an intended starter fwiw happy with the 8s ive got anyways. I would say there is a chance, small i know, but still a chance Gods Own could run in the Henry V111 chase.

Out of the rest, i am interested in a couple, Vukovar though the price has long gone and Ballycasey if turning up

To be honest I was expecting him to run at Cheltenham the following week, how confident are we that he will run at Sandown? heard anything from connections STS??

No unlike some i have no contacts. I am confident he will run here based solely on the market on here. There are just certain yards you can associate with knowing what their plans are going to be before the press does just by looking at the respective ap market on the exchanges and Henderson's is one of them. Though 90% of the time the market is a great guide to many!

I think Henderson may have said he was running when SS was declared unfit to do so.

Hes been saying for sometime now he is a 2 and a half miler,which we all knew before his World Hurdle debacles anyway. He has a 2 and a hlf m race next week.
I guess hec sees a soft ground 2 mile race without the the top horses as a chance for him to win a big race......okey doke and I hope hes right.
I do worry hes quick enough and I do worry about his jumping on a course where they come up quick.

Fascinating stuff.

*The fences come up quick

OW simply does not jump well enough to win a Tingle Creek. Yeah he had good hurdles form, how many hurdles are there in the Tingle Creek?

He's up against genuine 2 milers and at Sandown he cannot afford to be sloppy, which he has been several times over fences so far.

I doubt that there will be much between Balder Succes,God's Own and Oscar Whisky. The price sways me towards Oscar Whisky of that trio.
But Somersby will think it is his birthday with nothing of the calibre of Sprinter Sacre,Sire De Grugy,Al Ferof or Sizing Europe to contend with. I think he is worth a little e/w at 8/1.

10 declared :

Balder Success
Gods Own
Oscar Whiskey
Vukovar
Somersby
Dodging Bullets
Hinterland
Third Intention
Williams Wishes
Pepite Rose

Balder Succes & Gods Own worthy favourites.

But, Somersby will be extremely fit now, back down at his favourite trip; arguably the second best 2 mile chaser of last season. Strong pace hopefully, could battle on and go close. 9/1 is fair.

Third Intention looked a revelation down in trip. Jumps well, could steal a march? 25/1 looks juicy.

William's Wishes ran respectively on reppearance after injury. Prior to that, was shaping into a Champion Chaser. Small saver @ 25/1.

Third Intention for me now that Mad Moose wasnt declared :(

OW is a joke. Ran twice in world hurdle and now at the age of 9 is back to 2m. If i was the owner on captain conan i'd want to know why he's not running. Genuine 2 miler with top form at the track and was a last minute job running in it last year.

I thought Captain Conan wasn't ready to race yet after the injury he picked up last season?

You may be right ACS, i just think he hasn't been trained for the race. Josses Hill not running in the Henry VIII either? Not entered for anything other than the Arkle. Anyway i digress from the thread. OW running in this has similarities to last year when CC was thrown in when SS was taken out.

Yeh,i get what you say Peaty.Ive said before what a mess Hendo has made with the campaigning of OW.
Hes many times said hes an inbetween horse(2and halfm).
They tried to win the WH and was apparent he was out his comfort zone getting well beat,and then had another go!!
Hes now back at 2m,and obviously cos no SS or SDG,so trying to nick a big one.At least it will be a distance that the horse will be fine at,but he aint a 2miler for sure.......as his trainer admits.
I could accept a 2m hurdle race on soft ground...that's what I believe he should have been running in as a  hurdler,and on decent ground he should always be running at 2 and a half mile.
To be honest I think he should still be hurdling. Yes he has done pretty well in general over fences,but I don't think hes a natural over them,and at 2m will get found out,unless his jumping suddenly improves,and it will have to around a course like Sandown.
Hes omne of my favourites and I always want him to run well,and will want that again tmrw,but I really don't think he should be there.
Having said all that,he probably bolts up tmrw.

Just to add:
As much as I love the horse,i don't think I would want our premier 2m chase outside the festival won by a 2 and  a half miler.

The clock says a three horse race, Balder Success,Gods Own and Dodging Bullets.

Think Balder Success can reverse the Exeter form with Gods Own on 7lbs better terms so I will be backing the former and Dodging Bullets.

I cant decide between Gods Own & Oscar Whiskey

Oscar Whiskey price wised! Good job i am on at 8s

Though i admit i never have any bother getting on anyways

Thought he would have gone for Somersby,looked the most likely imo,and a likely winner and bit of value at 9.Solid performer at this level and will do for me. Hope OW runs well.

Somersby has the form in the book and highest RPR. The others are a mix of potential and chancers. I'll back Somersby EW in case a superstar emerges from the younger brigade. I'll have egg on my face if it's Vukovar. I love the way he travels but don't understand the gamble on this race.

Please hope that it's not abandoned!

Don't like the silence. Another inspection at 12?

Racecourse twitter feed at 09:22 this morning:
"6th December 2014 09:22:29 It's #TingleCreek Day and the weather has come up trumps!

It's on.

Somersby ew for me, good luck...

No bet for me, hope Balder does it.

Have a sneaky feeling Pepite Rose might run a good race at big price.

Am absolutely shattered. Don't really know what to say about Oscar,except I really wish he had never gone chasing,and to be honest I think there were enough signs in his races for his trainer and owner to have realised chasing was not his game.

Desperately sad about OW but I have no sympathy whatsoever for connections. Sorry. The horses was never suit by the the conditions of this race and I think they were just chancing it.

* the horse was never suited

Happy with Somersby. He's a good yardstick but tends to find one too good. Agree with the comments about poor Oscar Whisky. He owed connections nothing but they put him in the second best race for two mile chasers in his first ever two mile chase at the age of nine. Henderson deserves the heartache he will undoubtedly feel and it goes to show how desperate he is to win back the trainers' championship.

I feel gutted about Oscar, but this blaming the trainer and connections is going a bit far.  He fell quite early on and under no pressure, its the worst part of this sport and sadly fatalities occur too regular.  Oscar was a race horse doing what he loved.  This race was wide open, with no Sprinter or SDG, so they had a go, and no I didn't think he'd win, but it would not have been the greatest shock if he had taken the race would it.  However,  we all know what happened.  IMHO in this instance there is no blame attached, if he was 13 then maybe, but he was 9 and in his prime.  Its a really hard sport and if you want to follow it then sadly you have to accept that this will happen, no matter how hard that is to swallow.

Agree with the nature of the sport etc but he, imo, was never the type of horse suited to it. The Owner would have played a big part in the decision to run too.

I get the fact that 2 miles was probably too sharp, but they had a go to win a grade 1 with no "real" star 2miler in the race. The only argument I would have is that they could have gone to Ireland tomorrow for the John Durkan over 2.5 miles for a grade 1 or the Peterborough. Just all very sad.

I think it's an over reaction to blame the connections. Hindsight is a great thing. Horses have died in their ideal conditions before too.

Plus this was a race about 4f short of Oscar Whiskey's ideal trip plus it was a weak race. What about a stayer like Third Intention running in the race, there does not seem to be much aggro towards his connections.

With respect that's bullsh!t. Read what buddelia was saying days before even the final entries were published. I did and hindsight proves he was talking sense. Third Intention started chasing at the age of 5 and has had plenty of experience of two mile chases, including around Sandown. The point you seem unable to grasp is that Oscar was put over fences late in life and was given his first experience of a two mile chase in the second best race of its type. Oscar raced today for prize money counting toward the trainers' championship. Don't underestimate the rivalry between Henderson and Nicholls. I certainly believe Henderson has a heart and trust he will be regretting his decision tonight.

Also I think Fry was lucky getting Vukovar back in his box. Another chancer with inadequate experience that I made my place lay of the day on Knight Commander's thread. However sentimental you might be, horses are used in this game.

Autocue you are talking "bullsh!t- With Respect" !! Oscar Whiskey has had several races over fences by now mostly over a little further than today's race including some at the highest level. As I say hindsight is a great thing. Doesn't matter what Buddelia says - can he predict what horses if any will be injured tomorrow?

Shockster's summary of today's race has been the most accurate on this thread
He fell quite early on and under no pressure, its the worst part of this sport and sadly fatalities occur too regular.  Oscar was a race horse doing what he loved.  This race was wide open, with no Sprinter or SDG, so they had a go, and no I didn't think he'd win, but it would not have been the greatest shock if he had taken the race would it.

OK, so you don't think Hendo threw Oscar into an unsuitable race in the hope that he'd grab a bit of prize money off Nicholls? Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Fact is Oscar never previously ran in a chase of less than two and a half miles and he now has a dead horse who might have had a chance to collect precious prize money in the Ryanair, so he's the loser in this and he'll be all too aware of it.

The argument that he was wrong to run due to past jumping mistakes, 2m trip, etc would be a valid one if we didn't see dozens of horses running over inadequate distances and with jumping frailties every day of the week.

Every racecard is littered with bad jumpers and horses running at a trip above or below what's known to be their best. This would seem to be part of horse training culture and there's nothing seen to be wrong with it.

All the trainers do it including the top ones. Sad that Oscar Whiskey died today, yes, but wrong to run, no.

Autocue - talking about the horse collecting money in the Ryanair yet berating the trainer for running in a Tingle Creek.....hmmmm Surely the fraction of a stride faster they go in a G1 2m chase could not make such a difference

Geraghty is quoted as saying he thinks Oscar might have broken his leg on take off which you clearly can't legislate for, can't be a very pleasant experience for the jockey either and you can see Barry in the background of the camera shot holding the reins of the poor horse who is clearly agitated and frightened...does n't make comfortable viewing for anybody involved in the sport in anyway including punters.

Vukovar has an entry in the King George and Fry was quite open in stating that today was a bit of a voyage of discovery in terms of finding his optimum distance (whether a Grade One is an appropriate medium for such an exercise is a moot point) but they obviously think the horse is talented hence the ambitious entries, no idea what prompted the gamble on him in the week other than he's from a 'trendy' stable.

Third Intention is a strange one - said they were going to run him over 3 miles at Haydock, ran him over 2 miles there instead where he won a race that fell apart, hence the entry here.

And where was Uxizandre and (to a lesser extent) Cue Card today? Finally, Poole Master won the Sefton today despite not appearing to particularly like the experience when running over the National fences in the same race last year.

I would have prefered Oscar Whisky to run in the 2.5 mile (or thereabouts) handicap at Cheltenham next week but I don't condemn them for running today, there are many examples of horses running in the 'wrong' race from a punter's perspective but it's a bit like Henderson slagging me off for two horses that unseated in the Becher Chase today when he was n't privy to my thought processes (jockey's fault - would've been first and second otherwise obviously).

^backing two horses that unseated

I dont think Oscar was doing what he loved,i think he was doing what his connections told him to do.
For me he has never really looked comfortable over fences,just like he weren't at 3m over hurdles.

This is what I don't get:

He ran in the Churdle, ran well enough and was clear to all that he would be better over further. He then won 2 Aintree hurdles and pretty much campaigned around that sort of distance-fair enough, thats the horses optimum distance, and trainer kept telling us that. Not happy with that though, so lets take on Big Bucks. Again fair enough, give it a go, we can always step back if it don't work. It failed producing his worse ever run,taking him out his comfort zone, what do they do? have another go next year-same result. Ok now what? lets try chasing, quiet late in the day after many years hurdling but give it a go. He goes chasing and struggles to win small field chases at his optimum distance against horses he would pick up and carry over hurdles. That would tell me he aint as good as a chaser, and at that stage I would have thought the right thing to do would revert back to hurdling. Nope, lets persevere, so off to Cheltenham festival, falls at the 1st fence. This season runs a fair race in the Paddy power running on at the finish like a horse that is probably getting a tad further with age as a lot do, but still cannot beat Johns Spirit at level weights, another horse he would have thrashed over hurdles. What next? well we have a couple of chases coming up soon over his sort of distance-chelt and Huntingon, what do they do? run him in a 2m chase, the top 2m chase outside the festival at that.Now all the time they were messing about with his campaigning, not once did he ever go back to contest a top 2m hurdle race-they said he was not a 2 miler, ok I understand.
So what the heck was he doing lining up in the Tingle Creek???

Now I aint saying anyones to blame for the incident yesterday,it could happen anytime,and I certainly did not predict that outcome. What I did say was that imo he should not be anywhere near a top 2m chase,and all the evidence as to why not was clear to see by watching the horse over the years.
Had their star chaser been fit,OW would be running at Cheltenham next week,i have no doubt about that.
They tried to nick a big pot having the opinion that it might be a soft Grade 1, but they used a horse that by their own admission was not a 2miler,and was now looking more like a stayer, took him out his comfort zone....again!!and have paid the ultimate price.
No,they are not guilty as to what happened yesterday, but imo they are banged to rights as far as his campaigning is concerned, and that unfortunately has had the saddest of endings.

RIP old fella...you will be sadly missed.

Those are fair points Buddelia. He was badly campaigned and that post highlights that. He was probably a victim of being "top-class" over an intermediate distance of 2m 4f but not top-class at the championship distances of 2m or 3m over either obstacle. He certainly seems to have been much more popular horse than I had thought too.

Agree also with your summing up Budd about campaigning of Oscar and it is very well put.  However, I really can't blame anybody for yesterdays tragic end. We'll have to agree to differ, but the end is sadly the same.

SYT, its a shame imo that we don't see the 2 and a half m distance as a championship distance at the highest level, as I do think their is an argument that over the years these sort of horses are just as classy...if not more than a lot of Gold Cup and World Hurdle winners.

Shock,
We aint really disagreeing on the blame factor mate,as I said above that sort of accident could happen anywhere at any time, and by all accounts was bit of a freak thing to happen, and we cannot put the blame on individuals in that scenario.

I think some people have perverted the argument on here. I don't see evidence of anyone predicting that Oscar Whisky was going to be killed yesterday. What I do see is plenty of evidence that people had a bad feeling about Oscar being put in an unsuitable race. You can then argue, with merit in my opinion, that yesterdays death could have been avoided if the horse’s interest had been put before the trainer’s quest to retain the championship. There was plenty of foresight without having to resort to hindsight as some have insinuated.

Paul Kealy “Nicky Henderson could well run Oscar Whisky, but I think that would be a mistake as I don’t think he jumps fluently enough for 2m around Sandown...the race for him is surely next week’s Caspian Caviar Gold Cup...he’d be throwing away a good favourite’s chance if running at Sandown.”
Malcolm Heyhoe “Oscar Whisky is not the most convincing of jumpers, which will be an even bigger problem over this shorter trip than when a fair fourth in the Paddy Power Gold Cup.”
Simon Holt “However, that was over two and a half miles as was his staying-on fourth to Caid Du Berlais in the Paddy Power Gold Cup first time out and he could struggle to stay in touch over this minimum trip.”
GG.com preview “We all know how good this horse is but this assignment is clearly something of an after-thought on the back of a hard race in the Paddy Power Gold Cup. His jumping over fences has never entirely convinced and two miles around Sandown in a Tingle Creek is no place to make a mistake, as just the one will scupper his chance.”
Buddleia “I am a big OW fan but just don't see him as a 2m chaser.” “I do worry hes quick enough and I do worry about his jumping on a course where they come up quick.” “he aint a 2miler for sure.......as his trainer admits.” “Yes he has done pretty well in general over fences,but I don't think hes a natural over them,and at 2m will get found out,unless his jumping suddenly improves,and it will have to around a course like Sandown.”
Wicketd  “OW simply does not jump well enough to win a Tingle Creek. Yeah he had good hurdles form, how many hurdles are there in the Tingle Creek? He's up against genuine 2 milers and at Sandown he cannot afford to be sloppy, which he has been several times over fences so far.”
Peatysandy “OW is a joke. Ran twice in world hurdle and now at the age of 9 is back to 2m.”

The first thing I thought when the news of OWs death broke was, "Oh dear, Budd is going to be gutted". The power of the forum eh?
Hope you're OK old boy?

Still gutted mate,he was a lovely horse,and a real genuine one.

Life goes on though...as always.