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Juddmonte International York
Juddmonte International York
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And when you criticise Baillmont
I've already said, this isn't my way of reading form, it is the way you analyse all recent races. It's noticeable that when this method is used for past races you term it as criticising and maligning. try to remember the Group 1's Excelebration won he beat Rio de la Plata and Cityscape. Cityscape has only won a Group 1 in Meydan, not in existence in 1986, and Rio de la Plata has been well beaten in Group3s since. So I take it you are maligning Excelebration then? |
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I never said he was high class
That was high class form, as was St Estephe's six length defeat of Over the Ocean in the Prix d'Harcourt at Longchamp on his only previous appearance.  cuckoo. |
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That form was high class but Clownform never said St Estephe was high class. But they were miles closer than your mailicious and deceiving 'moderate'comment. Which he clearly wasn't.
Next point???? |
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You have so far concentrated your 'assessment' on a horse that finished 9th in the Arc. Is that all you have?
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That form was high class but Clownform never said St Estephe was high class.
No, you said it was high class form. |
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You have so far concentrated your 'assessment' on a horse that finished 9th in the Arc.
It was you that made an issue over the merit of his form, seemingly now you're eager to divert the argument, as usual. |
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Next point????
Next point, that you've conveniently skipped, was Bering, and your incredibly vague qualifiers for him being a highly rated horse. Entirely glossing over his previous ordinary form (by Gp1 standards) and using such laughable terms as he was a "top horse", comparable to other top French horses and because he was expected to run well that's good enough. |
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You brought up St Estephe. I didn't. I only defended him AFTER you maligned him to try to prove a point.
I'll try it again. So you are maligning Excelebration then? |
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A quote from Clownform.
For much of the season Bering was hailed in French racing as the 'wonder of age'. He was to France what Dancing Brave was to Britain. Even before he won the French Derby in striking style. And it was you who said what St Estephe had beaten so I drew a natural comparison only in response to your comment. Think about it!!! |
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*'wonder of the age'
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Yeah, which just proves hype isn't confined to Coolmore or these islands.
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Sandown, I obviously have a bias, as I put up a very strong opinion on here of Harbinger before the KG. I had a big bet and I expected him to win. I thought he'd win comfortably but obviously I didn't expect him to win that easily. Of course he won so easily because the rest ran below form to varying degrees, but I would say the same is nearly always true for any wide margin winner in a Gp1, it is generally the result of a top performance by the winner and the others being a bit below par. I believe most handicappers are more aware of this now whereas in the past it seems to me that for a lot of those races the form was taken literally.
Is this one race, which you have palpably failed to prove, the extent of your wild and inaccurate claims???? |
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Just what was wild and inaccurate? And as you never gave an opinion on the pre-race King George thread at the time you could always fit the result to suit your post race views
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I believe most handicappers are more aware of this now whereas in the past it seems to me that for a lot of those races the form was taken literally.
Those wild and inaccurate claims. Don't change the subject unless you have nothing else to add! I don't know what pre-race King George thread you are talking about but just because someone doesn't have a prediction what will occur in a race that automatically precludes from having an opinion after the race. I didn't see your pre race prediction for Dancing Brave's race so perhaps you just fit the result to suit your post race views. |
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Don't change the subject unless you have nothing else to add!
Change what subject? You mean like analysing Bering's pre-Arc form instead of spewing Coolmore type hyperbole? If you specifically pointed out what you're referring to in the first place instead of vague references to everything I could've answered in the first place. In recent impressive Arc winning performances, such as Treve and Danedream the performances could've been rated even higher if taken absolutely literally. However, handicappers have used some sense and discretion to estimate that many of those behind ran below their best. Whereas in Sea Bird's Arc, for example, we have a race run in a very slow time, on likely soft ground which wouldn't suit every horse and is always liable to produce exaggerated margins, with many horses feeling the effects of a hard season, just as many will this year come October. Yet we're supposed to believe that those behind ran to form, that's aside from the fact they unbelievably rated it on a 6 length winning margin instead of what the photo showed to be nearer to 4 lengths. I'd say handicapping has advanced since those days. I didn't see your pre race prediction for Dancing Brave's race so perhaps you just fit the result to suit your post race views Another example of your inability to comprehend the written word. As I stated, those weren't my methods for analysing a race, it is exactly how you go about downgrading any recent performance. |
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As for my pre-race prediction for Dancing Brave in the Arc, I backed him, the only time I did, only small bets for me back then, though, so only a few quid. Unfortunately I took McCririck's tv advice and refused the day before odds of 9/4 to take pari-mutuel price, which returned an abysmal 11/10.
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Another example of your inability to comprehend the written word.
You just cannot help yourself. Your ability to communicate has no bounds. You mean like analysing Bering's pre-Arc form instead of spewing Coolmore type hyperbole? And that is your reference to handicapping? You should be in the circus. It just shows you have a total inability to hold a debate with talking complete rubbish and making up your excuses. Just for your information Sea Bird 11 beat Reliance who was an unbeaten multiple classic winner who needed the ground to be soft. So he beat a top class unbeaten multiple classic winner on his preferred going. Add to that Sea Bird was unbeaten in 5 races and Reliance was also unbeaten in 5 races that season. And you wrote: In recent impressive Arc winning performances, such as Treve and Danedream the performances could've been rated even higher if taken absolutely literally. No it couldn't. Treve's race was falsely run and both Treve's and Danedream's form before the Arc never warranted a high rating. That is exactly why Harbinger's rating is so ridiculous because he had no comparable prior form to support a high rating. But perhaps you don't consider Harbinger as recent? |
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And that is your reference to handicapping?
No it was a reference to your Bering was a top French horse...like other top French horses...he was expected to run well therefore he did....wonder of the age...and other meaningless blatherings. Just for your information Sea Bird 11 beat Reliance who was an unbeaten multiple classic winner So what? Camelot was an unbeaten multiple classic winner before the Leger, meaningless. Reliance was also unbeaten in 5 races that season. 5 races you say? So a fair chance then that he might've been feeling the effects of a hard season. Treve's race was falsely run Sea Bird's Arc was very slow considering the supposed conditions. That is exactly why Harbinger's rating is so ridiculous because he had no comparable prior form to support a high rating He did for me, that's why I backed him  |
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I don't why I should educate you but here goes:
Sea Bird won first time out as a 3 year old in April and he was so impressive against quality opposition he was immediately installed Derby favourite. He then ran in the Prix Lupin meeting the French 2000 Gns winner he bolted up by 6 lengths. He then ran in the Epsom Derby where he won in a canter beating the Irish Derby and King George winner. He then ran in the Grand Prix de St Cloud again winning as he liked. Finally he won in the Arc by 6 lengths with the first nine home being Group 1 winners. Reliance first time out won a maiden at Longchamp. Next in the Prix d'Hoquart he beat Carvin, who had won the Grand Criterium de St Cloud, by 5 lengths. Next in the Frnch Derby he easily beat Diatome who had finished 2nd to Sea Bird 11 and who went on to win the Washington International. Next in the Grand Prix de Paris he beat Diatome again by 6 lengths in a canter. And finally he won the Prix Royal Oak Beating Gr1 winner Carvin. The difference between Reliance and Camelot was that even before the Arc he had beaten many more Gr1 winners in 4 races than Camelot did in six. You may sneer in that schoolboy manner, looking around to see if your mates are watching, but it will only be when you grow up that you will realise just how silly you look. |
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impressive against quality opposition
Tells me nothing. he was immediately installed Derby favourite. So was Australia after the Guineas, Before the Guineas too, but obviously not as short. He then ran in the Prix Lupin meeting the French 2000 Gns winner he bolted up by 6 lengths This year's Guineas winner was beaten further by Mukhadram in the Eclipse. Australia goes on to comfortably beat Mukhadram. He then ran in the Epsom Derby where he won in a canter beating the Irish Derby and King George winner. Australia won both the Derby and the Irish Derby, he recently beat horses further than they were beaten by the King George winner, therefore it could be reasonably argued by some that he would've beaten the King George winner. He then ran in the Grand Prix de St Cloud again winning as he liked No mention of who he beat there? I'm guessing because it wouldn't amount to much. Finally he won in the Arc by 6 lengths with the first nine home being Group 1 winners. 6 lengths that would've been rightly judged as 4 lengths if the race was run this year. None of which proves how close those behind ran to form, or even if their prior ratings were correct. Next in the Prix d'Hoquart he beat Carvin, who had won the Grand Criterium de St Cloud, by 5 lengths So basically he won a PDJC trial from a horse who had won a 2yo race not particularly associated with producing great horses. Next in the Frnch Derby he easily beat Diatome who had finished 2nd to Sea Bird 11 and who went on to win the Washington International. Next in the Grand Prix de Paris he beat Diatome again by 6 lengths in a canter. So much depends on how highly you rate Diatome, and as it appears he beat him more easily second time around that horse could've been below par. And finally he won the Prix Royal Oak Beating Gr1 winner Carvin. A race more associated with stayers. |
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OK now for the crunch. This is something I have been waiting for a long time for. I have had to patiently wait while you crucified almost every great racehorse of the past.
While I have been on this forum you have consistently knocked horses such as Dancing Brave, Shergar, Nashwan, Reference Point, Sea Bird 11 in fact the list is almost endless. So now what we all have been waiting patiently for: Tell us all who you think the greatest Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe winner is. |
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I will line up the form books ready to assess your decision. After all the reason for slagging off Dancing Brave was based on the 9th horse home. Can't wait to see who the 9th horse was in your selections race.
And with Sea Bird soft ground and stamina are a no no. And with Reliance a Gr 1 winning 2 year old was out. The list is endless. I really cannot wait. |
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While I have been on this forum you have consistently knocked horses such as Dancing Brave, Shergar, Nashwan, Reference Point, Sea Bird 11
I haven't knocked any of them, I have merely applied the methods you use to continually downgrade recent horses and races. Methods which when applied to the past have you seem to have a problem with. |
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*which when applied to the past you seem to have a problem with.
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And as for Nashwan, I said he was a good Derby winner, it was you who said he wasn't up to much.
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That is total bollox. And you know it.
What you failed to notice is that all except Dancing Brave never won the Arc because I knew you would say that. So back to the main question. Tell us all who you think the greatest Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe winner is. |
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So now what we all have been waiting patiently for
The megalomaniacal traits rear their head again, assuming that you're speaking for everyone. |
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Tell us all who you think the greatest Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe winner is.
A typically dumb question. Is this supposed to mean the best horse to win an Arc or the best Arc winning performance. This may be news to you but the two aren't inextricably linked |
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I always knew when the crunch came you would be gutless. You spend all your time on here slagging off horses of the past yet you haven't the balls to put forward one you think is better.
I've put forward perfectly sound reasons why I rate the horses I consider great racehorses and all of the time you have sneered and ridiculed the horses I have chosen. So do the decent thing and tell me what you consider the greatest Arc winner is if they don't match up in your opinion. As expected you squirm like a worm. And I make no apologies for calling you gutless and a worm because you have spent all afternoon doing your best to slag off two of the greatest horses I have seen and two of the greatest horses anyone has seen. Shame on you. |
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So do the decent thing and tell me what you consider the greatest Arc winner is if they don't match up in your opinion
Do the decent thing and pose a specific question instead of a banal Thommo style effort. |
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You have slagged off Dancing Brave, Bering, Triptych et all as hype and poor form. You have slagged off Sea Bird 11 over rated on slow ground against slow, stamina laden horses. Well I rate them as the best two Arc winners I have seen. And I am not afraid to say that or defend them.
Over to you. You can duck and dive and weave around but all I want is an answer not an excuse. I know immediately when asked and so will every racing fan. So get on with it. I have a plane to catch in the morning and will be away for a week so step on it. |
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You have slagged off Dancing Brave, Bering, Triptych et all as hype and poor form.
Try to twist it to suit yourself but I have said I'm simply using the same devices you use to disparage recent runners. One rule for one in your book. |
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Sea Bird was undoubtedly a great horse. He has also undoubtedly been overrated - look at the race objectively at the correct camera angle and it shows he won the race be a distance which would be called on a Uk racecourse today of no more than 3 lengths.
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if had kept in a straight line it would have been 6 lengths easy, what does me is the commentary he,s clearly sitting a close 2nd yet the commentator barely mentions him until he takes the lead
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Just as expected Figgis. Just as expected.
Sorry A_T I disagree. Having seen some of the camera angles on the racetracks today shows how it can be clearly distorted. So who to you think is the best Arc winner then A_T? And who do you think is All22? In closing can I add that none of you seem to take into consideration is that IF Sea Bird 11 was over-rated then Brigadier Gerard would have been the highest rated racehorse according to Clownform, since 1972, so I would have every reason to claim it was wrong. BG was only rated a pound behind Sea Bird 11 so a 5 length win would have done it. However I have always thought, and still do think, the result was correct. I have already detailed why BG should be rated higher than Frankel using Clownforms own ratings but I have to accept the fact that probably isn't going to happen. So according to you guys Brigadier Gerard should have been top rated until Frankel and according to Clownforms own ratings he should be top rated now. That brings a smile to my face and I thank you for that. I'm off on hols tomorrow so it's bed for me. Touring in hot weather with good friends is all one can ask. Have a good one guys and win loads. Bye MJ. Be back before you have even missed me. |
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The thread that keeps on giving.
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A_T, don't tell me you've never seen a photo finish camera angle distorted by up 2 to 3 lengths? A total nightmare for the judge and it's amazing some people bet on photo finishes at all with such camera trickery going on
In this country the distance would be now measured through times anyway, which prove it was clearly less than 6 lengths. |
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brigust
Have a good un |
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And who do you think is All22?
its all in the name brig |