Derby form...

A career at Timeform beckons

Totally agree penzance!

Same as it ever was.

yes figgis not the great race anymore.

MJ, no for me it's still the same. It's very rare to get more than one 3yo colt in any season that can run to a high level over 12f in early June. Derbys that contain more than one are very few and far between, but that's always been the case.

Too many alternatives,but admit I dislike Epsom, York would be a better venue,Not keen on all the good racing down south,and believe many like myself(sick of the southern pomp)

when did Western Hymn run?

He never,made a mistake there!

thank God for that, thought I'd missed something!

Gosden said he was going to look for a conditions race for him over 10f, mind you he's been looking for a race for Remote all season...

To judge Kingston Hill we need to see him over 12f again, 10f not his trip especially on summer fast ground.

Romsdal not run since. 3rd
Arod not run since. 4th
Red Galileo not run since. 5th
Western Hymn not run since.6th
True Story ran with the choke out in the Eclipse.

The 2000G form looks top class, and i would suggest Australia is equally top class over 12f.

You can't make excuses for True Story imo. TS runs that way most of the time. He is just not as good as the trainer hoped. He is dropping in Grade for his next run.

To be honest this seasons classic generation are being compared to the classic generations of 2012 and 2013 who remain in training who were dire when compared to the 2011 classic generation, if the 3yo's can't hold their own this season against their elders then we are in a pretty poor state of affairs compared to the racing we were watching three years ago

Hmmm the only two I'd be looking at would be True Story and Kingston Hill who haven't run badly at all. Kingston Hill ran well enough over an inadequate trip and that Newmarket romp by True Story is looking like a one off. He's not even run a bad race really I doubt many thought he'd finish in front of The Fugue. Pinzolo has been stuffed in both Derby's he run in. Same with Geoffrey Chaucer. I'd be inclined to think that neither are anywhere near good enough so you wouldn't be expecting them to be winning or for that matter even going close in G1 races.

True story wants the blinkers- visor,they help,and maybe a little further.

Geoffrey Chaucer is the one I don't get. I see very little in his pedigree that says 12f, the sooner he's dropped back to a mile in a single figure field on fast ground, the better. Breeders cup mile would be perfect.

You can't make excuses for True Story imo

No horse can run keen in a G1 and expect to win regardless if it`s how it always runs. We are assessing the Derby form here True Story was beaten more than 10L by Australia in the Derby and 4L in a muddling Eclipse at 16/1. What was we expecting from him?

I haven`t seen the Derby form take anything of a knock yet. I agree with Masterminded.

What about the Montjeu stamina Twonky?

I'm looking at the female line, which looks quite dominant, with plenty of fast ground milers in there. Zafonic, Machiavellian,  Henry the navigator,  divine proportions! Elusive quality leading to ravens pass.

You are going deeper down than to cross overs i can`t even see twonky.

I see Helsinki by Machiavellian/Helen Street(Troy)

Zafonic? - Gone West/Zaizafon (The Minstrel)
Henry ?- Kingmambo/Sequoyah  (Sadler´s Wells)
Divine?- Kingmambo/ Myth To Reality (FR) (Sadler´s Wells)

I don`t have an exclusive breeding data base and must be missing something.

Don't think your missing anything tbh, I mainly work off the dam line for stamina. Though breeding is not an exact science and my way of thinking is not infallible. We know that some sires are very dominant in the stamina lie, Galileo etc, but on this line, it looks like a family of milers, irrespective of grandsire.

There are always exceptions. From the Mr Prospector line, Bosra Sham, Dubai Millenium and Nayef amongst others, improved for a to middle distances and with age. So it's possible that Geoffrey Chaucer could improve stamina wise next season, but, ATM, what he's shown on 2 attempts so far at 12f, I doubt it.

You may be right twonky, it will be interesting how Aiden brings him back. The horse probably has excuses with coughing recently. It does seem strange that he missed the Irish Derby through coughing but was believed to be right as rain again a week later to travel over to the German Derby. A bad experience there and a bad experience at Epson won`t do a Montjeu mind too many favours.

He is entered in The Meld Stakes(Group 3) at Leopardstown on July 20th over 9f. The horse needs a confidence booster but in a way his flop in form is karma for Coolmore for fleecing punters in the Derrinstown with the public schooling.

It's not really a week later Angel when you consider they had to make a decision on Sunday evening/Monday morning to pay £65k supplement fee. We're talking 36hrs at best!

Yes sint i should have included the supplement stage for the decision time scale.

Geoffrey Chaucer's trainer Aidan O'Brien said: "He was due to run in the Irish Derby last weekend but gave a few coughs in the racecourse stables. He had passed all the tests we do leading up to the race, but we played safe and withdrew him.

"We checked him out fully when he got home and he was fine. We've been very happy with him during the week and he's in good form.

I think he stopped before stamina was an issue and was beaten too far for it to be his form. He could have a heart problem like Sprinter Sacre or something similar that doesn't show up readily. He has quite decent form so should be winning races at around Gr3 level at least.

Yes brigust, he was starting to get niggled along 5 furlongs out in the German Derby and eased right down like he was at Epsom. Something not right with him.

Not sure the AOB camp in the best of health this year.

Eagle Top/Kingston Hill match up in the Great Voltigeur August 20th could be telling regarding the Derby form.

Just to add it would be better to see the Derby winning 3 year old take on the older crop in races like the Eclipse and the King George as used to. This is what you get when one stable/owner has an abundance of horses bred in the purple.

Why isn`t Australia( yes i know Magician) and Kingston Hill( why isn`t he running?? ) in the King George? It used to be a mouth watering prospect of the Derby winner and placed horses taking on the the top 4/5 year olds in training to really test the form.

It`s a shame it really is.

Eagle Top is being supplemented into the King George, Angel. And apparently Varian has said no way will they target the St.Leger with KH, though they could still go for the Great Voltigeur over 12f.

I think the KG needs Eagle Top to be supplemented sint, I think that Gosden will be keen even with the £75k to add her to the line up. The race is there for the taking and £600k first prize is worth a go at.

And why Kingston Hill was put in the Eclipse and misses the KG is madness. Ok, they are not targeting the St Leger but they are not interested in taking the £600k in the King George over the 12f which the horse wants. I can not fathom it out. The Great Voltigeur is £85k to the winner, KH could still be ok for that race as well if it ran in the KG....25 days between.

*add him

sorry my OP,should have been Geofrey C
and not Western Hymn.

Western Hymn now reappears in the G2 Prix Eugene Adam at Maisons-Laffitte tomorrow.

The admirable Master Carpenter also runs.

Now that does surprise me. WH, to my eyes, needs a trip based on the dam' s stamina influenced Darshaan line. The course will suit with its very long straight, but 10f?  Throw in the usual slow French pace and 9/4  is laughable.

Went of a well backed 6/4 and won very easy.

Well, made a pigs ear of that assessment

not sure what the next move would be, Juddmonte International is plausible but looks a hot race, he was n't stopping so maybe the Voltigeur as a Leger trial.

Derby form looking half decent now I think...

I'm coming around to the idea that Western Hymn will be a big threat in the Champion Stakes at Ascot if it rains - the race he lost in Deauville was messy to say the least - the likes of Australia, TGG, Mukhadram, Trading Leather, Telescope may not show up if ground is on the soft side, will be inconvenienced by it if they do run and have been on the go all through the summer.

The problems are that 10/1 is short enough and Gosden might do something funky like running either Remote, Eagle Top or both instead.

CDA would have a massive chance obviously.