Coral Eclipse 5th July

Why has Varian started going on about cut in the ground being a necessity? I know KH won the RPT on soft ground but has anybody looked at the times on Derby day? There was no way that ground was any slower than good to firm and I assume connections would've been very pleased with that effort and viewed it as a best performance. He wanted cut at the Curragh as he thought that was the only possible chance KH might have of reversing the form, fair enough, but now seems to be stating it as a requirement before every race. Sounds to me like the usual trainer pressure put on clerks to water.

Well het got fined £12.5k for his late withdrawal at the Curragh so must have felt it was too fast to run.

Yes, as I said, he thought it was the only possible chance of reversing form with Australia.

Which was a view also taken by others.

If KH gets his so called ground, then all he will be winning are nonsense races, because all the good ones will get pulled. They should accept the ground and get on with it. Career best on gd/frm.

You don't think he would have run to get 2nd prize money Figgis? It's fairly decent

^ Agreed Sint - plus coming 2nd again to Australia would not harm his reputation, whereas if he runs down the field today it will.

If he really is just a mudlark then they should just pick and choose when the ground suits - presumably he'll stay in training for at least another year so plenty of chances to win a big race or two over 10-12f.

Well the times point to the ground being slower on Irish Derby day than Derby day so it appears not. I would've thought that as Epsom was viewed as a career best on good to firm then they'd be happy taking that form into this race. Personally I don't think that level would normally be good enough, but that's just me. The only thing left to think is they want soft ground to blunt the opposition rather than it being a necessity for their own runner.

Been belting down in Milton Keynes...hopefully they will have had some of it at Sandown too!

Think KH team  may regret not running against Australia in the Irish Derby later on today ( wishful thinking some might say)

I'm one of the first to criticise clerks but thought Cooper spoke very sensibly just now on RUK and he usually does a good job at Epsom too, given the different nature of the course. Looking at how the ground rode yesterday and the expected amount of rain arriving afterwards he did only what was necessary and I'll be very surprised if it's anything slower than proper summer good to firm ground today, so a job well done in the face of pressure from some connections. Unlike Haydock, but no surprises there.

What part of Milton Keynes are you today JOCI?
I'm near Newport Pagnell today and it hasn't rained all day!!!!

He's from the 'corrupt the market' part of Milton keynes. Tulius pulled because the ground is too fast. Mukhadram/True Story big prices.

I've backed Mukhadram ew at 16/1 and Trading Leather win at 18/1. The case for the former has been made by Sint and others but the latter looks a silly price to me based solely on one disappointing run fto this season when he pulled much too hard (admittedly if that happens again we're in trouble).

So TL - ran a very good race behind Magician in last season's Irish Guineas over a trip too short, just nine days after finishing second in the Dante to a horse who went on to finish 2nd in The Derby. Then won the Irish Derby and second in the King George followed by second in the Juddmonte behind a very decent animal. Stable is flying and Bolger takes no prisoners so if it does rain (unlikely now) he'll be pulled out.

Also (a bit simplistic admittedly), how many horses at his price in a G1 are afforded the luxury of a pacemaker? I think he was a little underrated last season due to his higher profile stable mate Dawn Approach.

I read somewhere that even a return to his best form won't be good enough here - I'm inclined to agree if The Fugue rocks up in PoW form but he'd surely have the beating of the others.

Respect the 3yos - particularly KH and NoT - and fear the WFA allowance but the last 3yo to win this was Sea The Stars and I'm not sure they're in his class.

Finally in terms of the Kingston Hill debate, this is what Varian said to Mark Howard before the season started:

'He has gained his wins on slow ground but he's a good moving colt and I don't see why he won't be as good on better ground' - so they need to be getting on with it really...

I was a fan of TL last year, thought he was a possible Derby winner but he never came to hand in time but I backed him in the Irish Derby. Although he was obviously no world beater I agree that he was a bit underrated. You could forgive him his run first time out this year, as with any horse, but the problem for me is Bolger has usually squeezed everything out of his better runners by the end of their 3yo career and TL was given the usual busy campaign. It would be nice to see TL prove an exception but Bolger's past record has to give rise to doubts.

Was at Wiilen Lake this morning for the 10k race, and it rained heavily.

Very nice. A nice pipe opener before a good days racing.

How has your World Cup betting extravaganza been going.

Yes, genuine good to firm ground, possibly on the quick side of that, despite the top kicking off.

Going well, mainly due to Greece v Costa Rica game, where I backed Sokratis to score @ 27s and both teams to win on penalties. Since then, some winners, some losers. From here on in, will be backing both teams to win on penalties in each game.

(And I was there watching Mrs JOCI Club running) :)

Looks like an interesting race today and thankfully I will be here to watch it live and I hope there are no excuses. Looking through the history of Group 1 winning 3 year olds running in the Eclipse over the last 20 years it looks quite interesting.

'94 Erhaab 3rd
'96 Bijou D'Inde 2nd
'97 Benny the Dip 2nd
2001 Touboog 4th, Black Minneloushe 5th
2002 Hawk Wing won
2005 Oratorio won, Motivator 2nd
2007 Authorized 2nd
2009 STS won, RVW 2nd.

Looking a little closer at them as individuals Erhaab wasn't a great Derby winner having been beaten several times beforehand and beaten since, Bijou D'Inde was touched off by a good horse in Halling, Benny the Dip was beaten by a good horse in Pilsudski in a hot race and who then went on to win several Gr1's, Touboog and BM never won another race, and Authorized was beaten by Notnowcato in a tactical race where Notnowcato came across the track to get better ground. 

I wonder what the future holds?

Have not had a bet in the Great Race 2day
Ground looks in favour of The Fugue again 2day, if she gets a gd clear run at them (stall 1 could be tricky) & performs at her best, I would fancy her to win again.
Excellent & very informative race in store with some gd 3yos stepping up to 10f & The Derby runner-up taking his chance (fast ground not ideal over 10f imo) as he looks a real 1m4f horse to my eye at Epsom.
Gd luck with your bets lads

well have had a bit on NOT...

think he has been crying out for this trip...we will see today, just wanted a tad more rain...i think verrazano will like the step up for a saver and it has to be remembered he has only had 2 turf starts

the money for kingston hill has confused me but hey ho

tricky race in all fairness

well done sint and others...why i deserted the horse i do not know

Well done Sint. I backed him at Ascot but gave up with him.

Surprising to say the least.

Half those jockeys rode like claimers!

Huge pace bias, though KH was simply unable to go with them from half way (ground and/or trip) so I wouldn't blame Frankie, but Buick needs flogging.

The mile handicap was very similar with the front runners not coming back to the field - Sandown has never been a track for quickeners and maybe the overnight rain has made it even harder to come from behind.

Well done winners. Oh dear. Got that wrong.

Well done Sint , nice price , had TL for a place so won on the race , Dettori must have been instructed not to overuse KH imo

The case hardened older horses proved better. All the other jockeys can`t have got it wrong.

Haggas thrilled to bits, good to see!

Well, just goes to show, you can account for horses more easily than you can account for some of the pea-brains on top of them. It's highly likely The Fugue wasn't the same horse today anyway but that still doesn't excuse an appalling ride.

Very well done Sint, good call.

WD Sint
Great ride from Hanagan
Not so the rest (jocks)

I said beforehand I hope there are no excuses. Can't be any, can there?

Well done Sint and others.
Great shout and win.

KH looks like a Leger horse to me. Doesn't have a great turn of foot but can wind it up and stay.

The puzzle would be more realistic to solve if they didnt have the Prince Of Wales as the only race on the round track at R.Ascot as well. Pea-brains on top and in the race planning dept?

No excuses from me, I said she probably wasn't in the same form today. However, there are also no excuses for piss poor rides.

The Fugue obviously got into trouble when the split closed - other than that no excuses for any. Field of non-stayers and average types. Poor race and form won't mean much down the line.

Or you could choose to believe Somewhat would've shat on the PoW field by about 4 lengths.

Well, apart from laying The Fugue (another F&M to add to the poor record in this race) I don't think I did anything right. Will now give up on WC,KH want's further/soft, NOT needs to drop back. I've got a fast time figure so don't think that the beaten jockeys were completely brain dead to stay out of the fast pace but nothing seemed to pick up. The fav was given too much to do for sure but she probably hadn't got over her fast run at RA. Well done those who picked the winner - certainly was a big price.

Mukhadram was in all is said and done a deserved winner  guts aplenty  , his battles with  With Al Kaseem last year will live even longer in the Memory  after that tremendous win.

It is a pity. You wait for a solidly contested Group 1 and it ends in drama. We learned nothing really except that the winner is clearly better than the 2nd and 3rd over 10f. Really like Haggas so if it had to go to anyone he will do for me.

Rail been moved in so I'd hang fire with any final time analysis.

Just watched the 6 runner fillies1m listed race on CH4+1 and even there the first and second were in front all the way. Clearly there is a massive pace bias towards the front end.
Not saying Mukhadram was a lucky winner as The Fugue was below par as most predicted she might be, NOT didn't stay and KH needs further and softer. True Story, War Command and Verrazano just look well below a Group 1 standard.

I said without The Fugue the race was too close to me to call, Mukhadram was among half a dozen runners I had it between, so the actual winning result is not unsatisfactory. What is unsatisfactory was the run of the race, even though I mentioned Somewhat last year as running a reasonably high figure I wouldn't back him to uphold that form over 10f with some of those 3yos behind if meeting again.

*close for me

i tend to agree punkle...certainly a speed bias imo

thankfully a bit of fun here...found it a very tough race to solve but a tad disappointed i didn't keep the faith as always like the winner...very honest indeed and clearly loves the track

the fugue who took a walk in the market - she was ridden like she was just out for the day out and to just look after her...buick appeared to just look after her and from the start of the race in my view... not pretty but not sure what she would of done anyway but she gave a huge start to the others, so we will never know

kingston ran well but was done by the bias and lack of speed...surely now they will train him for the arc where at least he would get his going, whether he is up to that is another matter

Cheers all. Well done Rease and Mac.

I backed Mukh at Ascot too Uncle so nice to see him run like he can. Coming into the Eclipse last year his seasonal debut was a g3 win. This year it was a 2nd in the Dubai world cup so he has improved. Nice TTF points today !

Small point but Tullis being withdrawn from stall 9 would have made Mukhs job a tiny bit easier getting to the front, less traffic.

...less traffic on his immediate inside.

Hannon's record in 9f+ G1's is 0/51. Have to remember that.

What a strange year?,I was not impressed by the 3yrlds today,My first thought was that if anyone had ante post bets on Australia winning the Arc,they may well want to sell.

Have gotta feeling, we may well question for years where in the world that Guineas win by NOT came from?(it suckered me anyway) and I must admit I have jumped to some very poor conclusions in the last 6 months.

Hi MJ. How are you? I'm just planning Breeders Cup trip. Stop jumping to poor conclusions. Do you want to buy a Arc ticket for Australia? Actually I think the 3 year olds acquitted themselves OK. The front 3 nicked the race so without them the 3 year olds didn't look that bad. I know the form is unreliable but that is all we have at the moment. And NOT still looks like the 2nd best 3 year old miler at the moment. At least they learned he probably doesn't stay 10f and may go back have have a proper crack at Kingman, maybe in the QE11, unlike the soft time he gave him in the SJP.

yeah it's not good Sandown though I think that's due to the type of horse they buy. More worryingly for Australia Arc backers, AOB is 0-50 with his 3yo at the meeting, that's what I read yesterday.

There are one or two horses in Germany that look potential Arc horses that have not even been put into the market yet.

Hello Brigust,Australia is the pick of the 3yrlds,and proven his ability,my doubts surround the quantity of 3yrlds that seem quite closely matched,the Guineas being the starting point,a great race,but not a great bunch of figures,form worked out very well.Australia for me is a little bit below what i had expected,AOB expressed his view that this could be his best ever,I am not at all convinced by the visual evidence,the Derby was workmanlike,and the Irish Derby did not reveal anything?,I suspect better to come on a quicker surface,but not sure this horse has an electric turn of foot? The breeders looks his best target,and he may improve with age.I would not take him too the Arc,and they may just put him too stud  earlier than expected?

Odds-on he won't be in training as a 4yo, Mj. Makes you think twice about all these glowing quotes, doesn't it

Hi sintonian,I believe you could expect improvement at four,but the fact they seem quite quick to put him away does make me think,in a similar way to yourself.

I know where you are coming from MJ but what else is there around? Yesterday's race was a funny race but The Fugue has almost the best form of the horses in training so that says a lot. I know it's early days but the French don't seem to have much and if Treve doesn't turn up again the Arc, dependent on going, looks there for the taking. I try to think what a top trainer would do if he trained Australia and I thought the Eclipse would be the obvious next step but he never turned up. Looks like he's going to stay in Ireland for his next run where he may meet The Fugue but he should really be able to beat her. If not then the hype was all it was.

They need to get him a rating brigust,nothing noteworthy yet?You gotta beat the older horses to get an inflated rating,not sure they will be that keen?

Have watched the Irish derby a few times,and i don't like his stride,something wrong for me.

I watched a recording of the Irish Derby and he never impressed me either. Maybe JOB was too confident. However the Guineas and Derby form looks the best around at the moment so the only way really should be upwards.
It's hard getting ratings I think because some of the races aren't that great. I listed above the horses The Fugue had beaten and none were great shakes so giving her a high rating by beating horses that never turned up or were not great shakes doesn't sit well with me. All I want is horses to turn up on their A game over a trip and on going that suits. I thought the Eclipse was going that way but it became a bit of a mess. Cirrus des Aigles has won 5 races since meeting Frankel and three were Gr1 but the horses he beat have not won a race between the since. How can you rate that?

If a jockey decides to drop in behind and 12 lengths off the lead and
that lead is maintained for a half a mile then the dropped in behind horse
is travelling at the same speed but 12 lengths down, so a jockey with brains
would ensure that the horse was dropped in about 4 or 5 lengths behind, this
would enable jockey to cover any sudden increase in speed, but these jockeys are just followers and it NEVER occurs to them
to think any different, the standard is really rubbish nowadays!!!!!!!!
Commentator said it's very difficult to make up ground at Sandown in a slowly run race, strangely DETTORI
said the horse could not go the early pace, then we learn that the race was run at faster than
standard for the race, it is a malaise running through British racing, only intelligent jockeys can
change the system, but do we have any INTELLIGENT JOCKEYS, it's like waiting for the messiah!!!!!!!

Well done Sint and other winners! Great ride by Hanagan and proper performance by Mukhadram. Having backed him e/w in the POW I wouldn't have been surprised to see him get placed yesterday but always felt something would possibly have too much class for him but he was a good winner in the end. You would think NOT is a non stayer, Verrazano was back to his old ways of chucking it in and The Fugue wasn't at her best on the day. I'd agree with others in this thread that there were far too many poor rides in this race. To let the race get away from them as easily as they did was inexcusable and what Buick was up to I have no idea. I see they have made excuses about the ground but I think she was probably just feeling the aftermath of her big run at Ascot. I don't think the 3yos ran badly. Somewhat ran well from a decent position and Kingston Hill ran on well he just needed slower ground/further.

Probably hard to quantify but perhaps Kingston Hill did not have the best preparation given he travelled to and from Ireland last weekend? Dunno.

It did pay to be up with the gallop or just a couple of lengths off it at Sandown yest.
But for me that's nothing new about races their on fast/ish ground.
Most of the big hopes were not close enough (far from it) when the winner struck for home, it was all over from that point imo.
No the best race for 3yos winning this over the years & the best one (3yo colts 10f) Oz was not their after opting to run in the Ire Derby instead .

Just when people thought there was no opposition to Australia Up pops Sea The Moon. As always, dangerous to make assumptions in this game.

Just took the 12s with Billies just in case.

It looks a beast

I think we can expect an annoucement soon from Coolmoore of slight setback and  imminent retirement.

Soumillon given it the expected poor ride also(even he can win on it)

Have now rated the race,I have 134-137,I lean towards the later,but the best performance of the year,and unlikely to be topped!

possibly the best middle distance performance since Harbinger

The Fugue  .. now retired as result of an injury in the Eclipse.

A good filly. Can't help thinking it wasn't unexpected with Australia being targeted at her next two possible targets. Not often do good fillies beat good colts but she did it more than once.

That's because you can't help but wallow in theories.

Her next target was the Nassau Stakes at Goodwood, a race she previously won.

I am usually well behind with information but I was told that was already off the agenda.

You were told eh? Entries came out this week, of which she was in.

Champions Series ‏@ChampionsSeries  22m
"Unfortunately The Fugue sustained an injury to her near-fore in the Eclipse Stakes," trainer John Gosden told the @RacingPost.

Champions Series ‏@ChampionsSeries  22m
Ctd. "We have taken the decision, in the best interests of the filly, to retire her from racing. She has been a pleasure to train."

Well I was told by the person who told me RH's 2 year old winner yesterday that he heard at the weekend she had nicked herself and was an unlikely runner. If she sustained a near fore injury in the Eclipse as reported then she would certainly have been a very unlikely runner in the Nassua. Not rocket science.

Of course it's not rocket science you smug cretin.

Well you re-printed the bit about the injury in the Eclipse. Don't you think that would compromise the possibility of a run in the Nassua? And then the only races left would be the Juddmonte and Irish Champion Stakes where if she were ready she could well be up against it. That is not smug it's just plain common sense. Perhaps you didn't read what you re-printed?

Sad news about The Fugue
Very classy filly on her day.

Sint put a pink pinafore on you there brig , show him you d man by fihghtin back to rass

farewell brig old son

Just counteracting the Homophobia on this Forumn , now getting back to the Horses which is the  purpose of this place , yes sorry to hear the Fugue is  to be retired , he peak performance came in the POW imo  where she was Electric .

be suprising if the plans for Australia had anything whatsoever to do with The Fugue's retirement

You don't think after they knew she would miss Goodwood that the next targets would be York and Ireland where Australia has been earmarked that it never had anything to do with the decision? It was only a nick so why retire her then? Why not wait?

well that was poor , Fig got it right  he aint no sprinter

What difference would it make to The Fugue and her connections if she did get beat by Australia?

It wouldn't make any difference I doubt but with potentially strong opposition meaning the races would not be a gimme why ask her such a question when there is no need?

But no Group 1's are a gimmes ffs. Look how strong the POW was this year and they ran in that. Talking absolute nonsense.

it's not as if Australia has yet proved itself a wonder-horse

I think yo will find she was only nicked in the Eclipse. I think you will find the considered her for the Nassau so the nick wasn't that bad. I think you will also find they have retired her. You may think it is nonsense but that's just a lack of common sense really.

Smug pratt.

They obviously didnt notice the injury straight away hence the declaration for Goodwood.
I don't think there is a conspiracy theory.




Simon Marsh, racing manager for the owners Lord and Lady Lloyd-Webber, said: "I haven't spoken to John today but the filly was absolutely fine last night and I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with her.

"It was a shame we had the shower earlier in the day, which made the ground a bit loose. We just have to move on and we'll look at the Nassau for her next.

"Yesterday was just one of those days."