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pedrobob
01 Jul 13 20:26
Joined:
Date Joined: 27 Mar 06
| Topic/replies: 8,604 | Blogger: pedrobob's blog
gave it very large timefigurefor a 2yo on Saturday when winning at Newmarket.

Not surprised been knocked into 10/1 today from 16/1 at the weekend. Think will trade pretty short if avoids War Command before the winter
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Report Figgis September 15, 2013 10:43 PM BST
Isn't Australia going for the RPT not the Dewhurst? I don't see him as a Guineas horse anyway. Yes, Stevie, the 1 mile races were on different courses, annoying how Raceform refer to them both as New mile. Toormore still has to improve a few pounds to win an average Guineas but I like how they're putting him away until next year, he's the best 2yo Guineas prospect I've seen from that yard ever, although I know they've won the race three times in the past.
Report Figgis September 15, 2013 10:46 PM BST
Well, apart from Shifting Power that is Wink, still need to see him again though to see if he's as good as I think he might be.
Report Stevie Gerrard September 15, 2013 10:51 PM BST
Yes Shifting Power looked good and like Toormore isn't obvious G1 winner on pedigree but then neither was Canford Cliffs. But Hannon does well to find these horses. Just looking at Arakan's 2 previous best progeny and they were Dick Turpin and Trumpet Major, again both Hannons.
Report brigust1 September 15, 2013 10:53 PM BST
The only reason they go for the RP is a time thing I guess. My hot favourite would be the Dewhurst. I know he's coming back but AOB was frothing about his times and speed. With so many Gr1 horses placing them will always be a problem and he is terrible at it. Shocking.

Shifting Power is a sprinter isn't he? Maybe I got that wrong?

Stevie just look through the owners of the 2000 Gns winners they are mostly owner breeders and the like. That's my guess where the winner comes from.

Talking about Canford Cliffs I hope we don't go through another St Nicholas Abbey debacle. Trained for the Derby, ran in the Guineas, amazing times and homework. Well beaten and off for a year. Never got the horse right until this year. Total b all s up.
Report Stevie Gerrard September 15, 2013 11:03 PM BST
Yes I see what you mean Brigust and I kind of agree but I do think you can get horses like Toronado and Canford Cliffs reasonably cheap and both of them were good enough to win a guineas but it just didn't happen on the day.

But when you go up to the Derby trip it does seem dominated by coolmore and well bred horses and it's very hard to buy one at a price that can compete over middle distances.
Report brigust1 September 15, 2013 11:05 PM BST
Nothing is impossible Steve. Godolphin will end up with Toormore anyway. Coolmore already have too strong a hand and Khalid probably isn't going to be buying.
Report brigust1 September 15, 2013 11:07 PM BST
Of course that all depends on how high Outstrip is up their pecking order.
Report Figgis September 15, 2013 11:07 PM BST
Winning the RPT usually requires a different type of horse, one not as fast as required to win the Dewhurst. A good RPT winner would be a poor Dewhurst winner on comparative time ratings. I don't believe the O'Brien comments at all. It would be unusual for a horse with that much speed to need three runs to show it. Would they have let him go off at 5/2 if he was the best 2yo they'd had? Would a horse with that much speed be aimed at a 1 mile race at this stage? Not in my view. Apart from that he's yet to show he's got the speed for a Guineas, the Derby is another matter.
Report brigust1 September 15, 2013 11:18 PM BST
Fig when they interviewed AOB after St Nics 2000 Gns he said he could have gone for a Derby trial but his horse's homework and times said he was as fast as any of his best milers so the Guineas it was. Sadly they crawled to halfway then sprinted and that didn't suit him because he would stay further.
If I was him I would go for the Dewhurst, Guineas and Derby. The Nijinsky route. But I am not him and he has a load of horses in the mix. In fact I think the Dewhurst will tell him more about his next race.
Report Figgis September 15, 2013 11:31 PM BST
They may have gone on the slow side early on in Makfi's Guineas but the overall time was good so I don't think SNA had any excuse, they also pulled him from the Derby after. I'll be surprised if they aim Australia at the Dewhurst as he's already won over 1 mile and the RPT has been a tried and trusted route for them , they used it with Camelot. If they do aim him at the Dewhurst I'd be a layer but I would've thought War Command was more likely to be targeted at the race.
Report brigust1 September 16, 2013 12:09 AM BST
You could be right Fig. This is what he said after that Guineas.

We would have been delighted to have seen an even strong run. Johnny said he jumped and we wanted to be taking our time but they did a hack canter to half way but lets not take it away from the winner or anything else in the race but obviously ideally for this hose we would have liked an evenly run mile because obviously we were using this as a stepping stone from here to Epsom. We trained him all year with classics in mind it would be easy to go for a Derby trial but he’s working so well and his times were very good as good as all the milers that we’ve had and that’s why we decided to let him take his chance in the Guineas and obviously when you come to a classic like this usually they go a pace obviously we didn’t put in anything to go an even pace in front which we often do. They hacked to half way and it would be interesting to see the sectionals because they hacked to halfway then sprinted and then he started staying on again at the end. We weren’t winding him up for the mile because we had to look and think about the rest of the year for him because he is a horse with natural quick speed and we didn’t want to light him up too much. Now listen it just didn’t work today but we're happy with the horse.
Report Figgis September 16, 2013 12:45 AM BST
Maybe, but I'd say he just didn't have the pace on the day, the fact he was off the track for the rest of the year also suggests all couldn't have been well, it's hard to think a moderate effort in the Guineas could've set him back for the rest of the year.
Report sintonian September 16, 2013 11:47 AM BST
AOB is on record as saying he made a mistake by running in the Guineas with SNA. It is what set him back a year. He was bred for middle distances and so it proved with all his best ratings achieved at 12f.

Australia looks like the same type of horse to me. Can't see him going for the Dewhurst at all unless it cuts up badly and looks a weak renewal.

And I am still waiting to hear what Weld has said about Free Eagle's run the last day. Not convinced it was his true running looking at how tenderly he was handled by Pat Smullen.
Report pedrobob September 16, 2013 12:34 PM BST
Aidan O'Brien well known now for clocking his horses in their homework.

Does anyone know what pace or speed they are being asked to go at home and for how long?

It almost sounds like they are being asked to go full racing speed? Yet in that extract from Brigust on Aidan's post Guineas comments re St Nicholas Abbey, O'Brien talks about trying not to light up the horse, though at the same time he is going faster than all their specialist milers?
Report Figgis September 16, 2013 12:46 PM BST
I still can't see how running a horse over an inadequate trip (which is the only thing that can be inferred from O'Brien saying he messed the horse up by going for the Guineas) could ruin SNA for the rest of the season. Especially as he says "We weren’t winding him up for the mile because we had to look and think about the rest of the year for him because he is a horse with natural quick speed and we didn’t want to light him up too much". Another case of it making more financial sense for the trainer to take the blame, imo.
Report bexley September 16, 2013 1:44 PM BST

Sep 15, 2013 -- 2:55PM, brigust1 wrote:


Again we find ourselves at the mercy of AOB. By all intents Australia is miles his best 2 year old and has all of the entries. He also easily beat Free Eagle about whom jockey and trainer had been eulogising. With 20 entries in the Dewhurst, far more the anyone else it shows how Coolmore have cornered the classic markets. Other top class trainers, better than AOB imo, have almost nothing to go to war with because the Coolmore operation keeps all of the best bred horses. Unless the other owner breeders bring something through like Frankel but he was a huge exception we await AOB's pleasure.


If this is the case for AOB in that 'Coolmore have cornered the classic markets' then why has he only won 1 of the last 5 runnings of the 2000 guineas?

For me at the moment Berkshire and Toormore represent the best form Cool

Report bexley September 16, 2013 1:47 PM BST
and Outstrip and Ertijaal are on form very similar to Toormore, though I accept that Toormore may be as the Hannons say a 'big baby' and currently 'a shell of a horse' and the first guineas horse they have had recently which is a 3yo not a 2 yo type.
Report brigust1 September 16, 2013 4:27 PM BST
The answer to your question Bexley is that he screwed up.

2009. He ran Rip Van Winkle and Mastercraftsman against Sea the Stars. RVW was not fit according to AOB. Both were top class milers of their generation. He screwed up RVW like he did Hawk Wing by running him in the Derby, Eclipse and BC Classic. Like HW he never got over it.
2010. St Nicholas Abbey was his only real shot. Horse not ready.
2011. Frankel won it but AOBs representative Roderic O'Connor wasn't right ether. Next time out he bea the 2000 Gns second Dybawi Gold in the Irish 2000 Gns.
2012. Won it with Camelot. Power finished 17th but next time out won the Irish 2000 Gns.
2013. Three runners but none any good.

Just about sums it up.
Report brigust1 September 16, 2013 4:38 PM BST
Had any other trainer had Rip Van Winkle there is a chance he would have won the 2000 Guineas, St James Palace, Irish 2000 Gns, Sussex Stakes and QE11. As a 4 year old he would have won the Lockinge, Queen Anne, Eclipse, Juddmonte and Champion Stakes and achieved a very high ranking.

Evidence.
I think he was a better miler than Sea The Stars and through Delegator he would have won the 2000 Gns had he been fit.
Mastercraftsman finished behind RVW in the Guineas and he won the St James Palace and Irish Guineas.
RVW did win the Sussex and the QE11.
As a 4 year old they took their time to get over the Breeders Cup Classic nightmare. Crazy idea.
He would have won the Lockinge having already beaten Paco Boy previously.
Ditto the Queen Anne Stakes.
He finished a close 2nd to STS in the Eclipse the year before and beat the Eclipse winner in the Juddmonte.
Won the Juddmonte beating the Eclipse winner.
The Eclipse winner then won the Champion Stakes but they avoided it and went back to a mile in the QE11. Utter madness.

The only reason a trainer can make so many mistakes with so many horses is because he cannot handle them all. Bad for racing imo.
Report Figgis September 16, 2013 5:07 PM BST
Have to disagree, brig, Sea The Stars' Guineas win was better than anything RVW did as a 3yo over a mile, he would've finished second if at his best though.
Report brigust1 September 16, 2013 5:16 PM BST
Couldn't agree Fig. Mastercraftsman smashed Delegator in the St James Palace and Irish 2000 Gns. And Master finished behind RVW in the 2000 Gns. And he beat Delegator 4.5 lengths in the QE11. I only have form to go on and I think with Delegator 2nd and Gan Amras in 3td the 2000 Gns was there for the taking for STS with RVW not fit. A fit RVW then gave STS a lot to do in the Eclipse and I think he was a better miler. It would have been close but I have RVW ahead. No doubts.
Report Figgis September 16, 2013 5:24 PM BST
Well all bar one thrashed Delegator on heavy at the Curragh, so I really don't see how that can be seriously held up as a reliable form line. Gan Amhras finished ahead of both RVW and Mastercraftsman at Newmarket, I think if RVW can be excused for being below his best that day (rightly so) then it's equally fair to come to the conclusion Mastercraftsman improved afterwards.
Report Figgis September 16, 2013 5:27 PM BST
I also can't see how Mastercraftsman could be said to have thrashed Delegator in the SJP, it was a hard fought neck.
Report brigust1 September 16, 2013 8:05 PM BST
We can disagree as long as we like Fig but I honestly believe Rip Van Winkle would have beaten STS had he been 100%. There are numbers of form lines to support that fact but it changes nothing. Even had he been 2nd to Sea the Stars, which you would have b.to be astalwart disbeliever to think he wouldn't at the very least been 2nd then the other races were certainly at his mercy. 

For starters had he been trained elsewhere I think he would have had a run before the Guineas, and because he was a better miler than Mastercraftsman arguably he would have won the St James Palace Stakes. He did win the Sussex Stakes and the QE11.

The following season Paco Boy (he beat him in the Sussex) won the Lockinge then he could have gone for the Queen Anne (Paco Boy was 2nd to Goldikova). The Eclipse was won by Twice Over who he beat at York in the Juddmonte. And Twice Over won the Champion Stakes.

So it is far from inconceivable that Rip Van Winkle could have been a completely different horse. I think he was a top class miler/ 10 furlong horse but he wasn't trained like one.
Report unclepuncle September 16, 2013 8:23 PM BST
I haven't seen Toomore's win on Sunday and hadn't seen his Goodwood win until CH4 showed the finish just before the Champagne stakes on Saturday.

For me the Godolphin horse was the best horse that day but was given a poor ride. He won well enough on Saturday in a muddling 4 runner race and I can see him being the one to beat in the Dewhurst. The trouble with backing him for the 2,000 Guineas is that Godolphin own him.Cry
Report pedrobob September 16, 2013 10:13 PM BST
have Outstrip 102+ and Toormore winning in slow time.
But both impressive and can't dismiss either for Guineas at this stage
Report Figgis September 16, 2013 11:09 PM BST
Think most would agree Outstrip's time was ordinary but I don't see how Toormore's race could be described as slow.
Report pedrobob September 16, 2013 11:24 PM BST
You may be right Figgis. Admit it difficult to be categorical about Toormore at the Curragh, problem is only one other race on the same track to compare with, an ordinary fillies listed who had achieved little on the clock beforehand. Even if you rate those fillies to their best (and it didn't look fast run), difficult to give Toormore a decent figure.

No idea how fast Toormore went early, did you think he set a decent gallop?

He still rates comfortably 100+ with me on his debut win
Report Figgis September 16, 2013 11:36 PM BST
Ped, I have Avenue Gabriel on a lower figure in the 1m Listed race than she achieved when behind Tapestry over 7f, although it has to be taken into account I don't use wfa so a 2yo rating over 1m is expected to be lower than for 7f, so it works out about the same. I have a pretty low figure for the Listed race but it still leaves Toormore with a good rating.
Report sintonian September 17, 2013 4:01 PM BST
I like the in-running comments from RP on Toormore's win at Goodwood.

Held up in midfield, effort and pushed left over 1f out, driven and chased winner inside final furlong, quickened under pressure to lead close home, immediately eased (op 13/8)
Report sintonian September 17, 2013 4:02 PM BST
Last two words suggest he had a bit in hand, regardless of the ride on Outsrip.
Report unclepuncle September 17, 2013 4:07 PM BST
Hopefully we can find out in the Dewhurst.Wink
Report Figgis September 17, 2013 4:12 PM BST
Uncle, I think they said he'll be put away until next year, unless plans have changed since I read that.
Report sintonian September 17, 2013 4:12 PM BST
The IR comments should actually say ''chased leader'' , RP's mistake, but get you get my point. Cool
Report gerard September 18, 2013 1:56 PM BST
Be Ready incredibly popular on here all of a sudden.....
Report FELTFAIR September 18, 2013 2:36 PM BST
Not currently entered in Dewhurst,Racing Post etc. However, this does not mean that the 2,000 Guineas is not on the agenda but will need to step up again compared to the market leaders.
Report Figgis September 18, 2013 2:44 PM BST
"I've always liked him, even before he ran. He's got class and he's my favourite for the future which is why I ran him first time in a Listed race at Newbury," said bin Suroor.
"I'm sure he will improve a lot for this race and the Dewhurst will be the next race."


I'm sure the Guineas is already on the agenda. If War Command turns up for the Dewhurst I'd expect Be Ready to have his measure.
Report pedrobob September 18, 2013 8:33 PM BST
have only 83-73 figures for Be Ready so far
Report BJG September 28, 2013 7:47 PM BST
Quite liked Berksires performance today given how keen he was, showed he can battle
Report unclepuncle September 28, 2013 7:56 PM BST
^ Toughed it out but he looked very one paced and ungainly to me - be amazed if he wins a Guineas.Confused
Report BJG September 28, 2013 8:06 PM BST
Aye most others agree with you th - i appear to be on my own Grin

Think he showed bundles of Speed at Ascot - was a diff type of race today and thought he showed he could do it both ways, pretty nailed on to improve massively from 2 to 3 lookin at him too and the experience of the track will be beneficial too

Has he the class prob the question tho but ive liked wat ive seen so far eve tho the 3rd prob holds the form down today
Report EastLower Gooner September 29, 2013 12:16 AM BST
Berkshire...super professional....liked the way he responded when Crowley realised at the half mile that he was out of his ground off a mediocre gallop. will be some horse if he can strengthen up more over the winter.
Report FELTFAIR September 29, 2013 12:19 PM BST
Hate to say it but I`m in total agreement with unclepuncle re Berkshire.GrinGrin
Report Fallen Angel September 30, 2013 7:32 AM BST
@Feltfair, i thought he looked a bit one paced as well. I think he has beaten less than Kingman on form terms. I still like Toormore trial the most and the time was the sort of figure that I am impressed the most by.
Report pedrobob October 2, 2013 12:05 PM BST
ATR saying Kingman headed for Jean Luc Lagardere Arc weekend, avoids a clash with War Commmand in the Dewhurst
Report Try My Best October 2, 2013 10:53 PM BST
Gosden loves his horses to get their toe in. Doesn't bode well for a nice firm surface in May.
Report sintonian October 3, 2013 1:18 PM BST
He has now been taken out. Looks like the Dewhurst for Kingman.
Report pedrobob October 3, 2013 1:52 PM BST
big clash with War Command maybe, this will sort them all out
Report sintonian October 3, 2013 2:20 PM BST
And Be Ready.
Report Masterminded October 3, 2013 4:13 PM BST
Have they said Kingman is going for the Dewhurst or has he picked up a knock?
Report sintonian October 3, 2013 5:38 PM BST
No mention just yet but not running in France so we'll have to see. He looks like he could do with the experience to me so would be surprised if they don't run again (fitness permitting).
Report BJG October 5, 2013 8:57 PM BST
Out for the rest of this season
Report pedrobob October 5, 2013 11:21 PM BST
has he had a problem?
Report BJG October 6, 2013 10:31 AM BST
In todays RP - just says he is out for the rest of the season
Report sintonian October 6, 2013 1:34 PM BST
Be Ready at 20/1 for the Guineas might be worth a few quid now then given he Dewhurst bound and likely to be fav or second fav.
Report unclepuncle October 6, 2013 1:59 PM BST
Took some 44 on Outstrip this morning  - probably won't even run but couldn't resist.Crazy
Report FELTFAIR October 6, 2013 2:02 PM BST
Kingman now on the drift.??
Report Figgis October 6, 2013 8:23 PM BST
For me, the Hannons are in a strong position with Shifting Power and Toormore. I actually have Shifting Power slightly ahead of Toormore but I would've liked to see another run from him this year to prove that his latest run didn't flatter him. He's been put away until next year though.

"Shifting Power is two from two and the Newmarket runner-up, Treaty of Paris, went on to frank the form at York, but our horse still has a lot of filling out to do, so we have decided to draw stumps and bring him back next season, with the 2000 Guineas definitely in our minds."

Toormore's form is more solid, I have him ahead of Be Ready at this stage but his price is a bit short for me to get involved. However, it might be more appealing if I'm not too impressed with the Dewhurst form, especially as he may skip the trials next year.

Tim Palin, racing manager to the Middleham team, said:"It was a pleasant surprise that nothing took us on in front, and the further Toormore goes the better. That will be for the season now, and he could go straight for the 2000 Guineas next year as he is a very clean-winded horse and he also has such a great attitude."
Report pedrobob October 6, 2013 8:29 PM BST
surely 100/1 Toormore still running for Middleham Park next spring?
Report Figgis October 6, 2013 8:37 PM BST
Would it be a deal breaker for you if Dettori gets the ride, ped? Wink
Report pedrobob October 6, 2013 8:58 PM BST
LaughLaugh ...... you know me too well, Figgis. Would not have backed Treve if Frankie still had a leg to stand on
Report Figgis October 6, 2013 9:11 PM BST
He's probably not riding as inspired as he once was but I can't say I've noticed him do too much wrong. I've not really fancied much he's been on lately and can only remember backing him on 3 rides this season, Asian Trader on his comeback, Our Obsession at York and Treve in the Vermeille and they all won, sorry for the triple aftertiming Grin. They were all favourites and well fancied to win but he did the job. Maybe I've conveniently forgotten some of his losers I've backed but nothing sticks in the mind where he ballsed up. Maybe I've just not taken much notice with me not backing him much. How poor do you reckon he's become?
Report Happybacker October 6, 2013 9:25 PM BST
Frankie is no where near a top jockey any more, and  i would not back any horse he is on. would he have won on Treve today?? Probably but he would have made  so much more work of it. Jarnet rode a superb race today.
Report sintonian October 6, 2013 9:27 PM BST
It took Fallon a few months to rediscover his form when he returned from his ban. Will take Frankie the same amount of time. Will be just as good next season imo.
Report pedrobob October 6, 2013 9:27 PM BST
Frankie was a great jockey, probably in the top 5 or 6 based in the UK last 30 years...... but thought he was past his best at least 5-6 years ago, Figgis, maybe longer than that.

Think the Sandown fall was in 2005, maybe around then thought he had lost his nerve. Used to be cocky as hell, supremely confident, doing what every top jock seems to have a special skill for - finding space and a gap where there appears to be none. He's long stopped fighting for his position, hardly ever rides to the finish if not in a winning position, and looks no better in a finish than any journeyman jock, whereas you could once rely on him winning the tight ones, like Ryan Moore, Richard Hughes, Johnny Murtagh and AP McCoy do now...

I also backed Treve in the Vermeille thinking Dettori had tons in hand and took a very dim view of the ride he gave her. Committed basic jockey error of getting trapped behind a horse going nowhere and giving her far too much to do, hence the thinking that she had a hard race there (like you wondered too). And to say afterwards Treve has to be ridden like that was just failing to admit he made a balls-up, would have respected Dettori much more if he had just said he made a mistake. Jarnet has hit the front 2f out today, just like he did in the Diane, so don't know where this "has to be hold up" or "will stop in front" nonsense is coming from
Report Figgis October 6, 2013 9:33 PM BST
Head-Maarek said: "I want to say thank you to Frankie Dettori as he rode an amazing race on her in the Prix Vermeille. I said to save her for today and he did.

Maybe she's just being diplomatic or maybe she told him to leave it late and just do enough? I don't know. The slow early pace wouldn't have helped either, although it was also slow today.
Report pedrobob October 6, 2013 9:37 PM BST
yes, I heard her say that too. I think she may have been referring to the fact that Frankie was under orders not use the whip that day under any circumstances as the Arc was the target. And to his credit, he didn't, despite getting taken back by a no-hoper when they sprinted into the straight.

If you had known those instructions before the Vermeille, would you have backed her?
Report Figgis October 6, 2013 9:46 PM BST
Ped, it's easy to say now but I think I would have, the only danger I saw was Wild Coco, who I'd been waiting to reappear so I could back her also, but I thought Treve had more than enough in hand of her at the weights. Tbh I'm not that bothered about the whip, I think it's overrated and as long as a jockey is capable of a strong ride I don't think it makes a huge difference. The biggest concern, for me, was a slow pace, but that's often a concern for me in French races.
Report Figgis October 6, 2013 9:48 PM BST
Oh sorry, you meant back her today? No I wouldn't have, I would've been less concerned about the hard race aspect but I still thought she'd probably need to improve, which was always a possibility but at the price I was prepared to let that happen.
Report pedrobob October 6, 2013 9:52 PM BST
no, I meant for the Vermeille.

Amazing the speed Treve showed to circle the field and sweep clear and that after they hadn't looked to go a strong gallop either. Big credit to Jarnet for committing as early as he did, pretty sure Dettori would have held onto her for a lot longer
Report Figgis October 6, 2013 10:03 PM BST
It's a difficult race for me to rate because of the slow pace. She won so well that I'm not saying the pace made any difference to the result, I'm sure it didn't, but I wonder about the actual stength of the form? Did Intello really stay or was it easier for him because of no pace in the race? Some of the beaten horses were never involved and I doubt the bunched finish of those behind is a true reflection of abilty. She was obviously a worthy winner and did it in style but I don't have a strong opinion on the form one way or the other, at the moment I'd rate it behind the Danedream performance.
Report pedrobob October 6, 2013 10:25 PM BST
have you seen any sectionals today and if so, any view on them?
Report Figgis October 6, 2013 10:33 PM BST
Not had a proper look, just what I heard about Treve's late sectionals being faster than Moonlight Cloud's. Actually I'm not too surprised about that as they appeared to be absolutely crawling early in the Arc, even by slow Arc standards. I also thought they were going too quick in the Foret, GLB was pulling too hard and the fact that he only just managed to stay ahead of some obviously inferior horses also made me believe that, taking nothing away from MC. They're only my immediate visual impressions, though, I'll need to have a proper look tomorrow. What's your view?
Report pedrobob October 6, 2013 11:07 PM BST
I haven't seen any sectionals yet, and my eyes were transfixed (and aghast) on Jarnet and Moonlight in the Foret to notice what gallop they had gone. Agree that it was a poor Group 1,  winner apart (and only have Gordon a Grp 2 horse at best), and she had every right to blitz them..... but not from way behind with just 200m to run. Never seen anything like that ever.

If they have run to different winning posts in the Arc and the 7f race, I would be immediately sceptical of any sectional comparisons. Do you know whether they did or not?

Would still be staggered if Treve clocked quicker closing 2f given Moonlight's dazzling finish and despite them not going very quick in the Arc. If Treve can truly run faster than a genuine Group 1 sprinter in Moonlight Cloud for even 100 yards, that puts her into serious superstar category, given she probably stays 12f.
Report Figgis October 6, 2013 11:17 PM BST
Yes, different posts. Don't forget, if they did go too fast in the Foret, even though Moonlight Cloud (and anything else) at the back was less disadvantaged, she was also probably going faster than ideal herself.
Report pedrobob October 7, 2013 7:04 PM BST
anyone know if there has been a problem with Kingman?

Disappointing PR from the Gosden yard with fav for 2000 Guineas. Plenty of other countries where you would be told what's going on and racing public wouldn't have to put up with the silence
Report Figgis October 7, 2013 7:11 PM BST
Connections of Kingman are looking forward to running the colt next year despite having to draw stumps on his juvenile campaign after he suffered a setback.

From Sporting Life website, no mention of what the setback is but implication is it's only minor.
Report FELTFAIR October 7, 2013 7:12 PM BST
What has any of this to do with Kingman??

By the way I totally refute the Frankie knockers. He has been and still is world class.
Report Figgis October 7, 2013 7:12 PM BST
"He's not going to run again this year and we are hopefully going to have him in very good shape for next year," said Teddy Grimthorpe, racing manager to owner Khalid Abdullah.
Report pedrobob October 7, 2013 7:30 PM BST
think that's shoddy PR from Grimthorpe, Gosden et al. What on earth does that mean other than the sky is blue?
Report pedrobob October 7, 2013 7:36 PM BST
By the way I totally refute the Frankie knockers. He has been and still is world class.

Frankie Dettori 16-205 for 8% strike rate, loss of 120.24, £144,084 win prize money, 

Johnny Murtagh 14-63 for 22% strike rate, profit of 44.25, £1,415,331 win prize money....

Feltfair, can agree with the "has been world class" part, but even Godolphin finally woke up a couple of years ago when they brought in De Sousa and Barzalona
Report eric_morris October 11, 2013 7:54 PM BST
One problem. Trained by 2000 Guineas virgin Gosden.
Report eric_morris October 11, 2013 7:59 PM BST
His Classic wins are predominantly courtesy of plodders with little speed.

St. Leger (1996) (2007) (2010) (2011)
Report eric_morris October 11, 2013 8:04 PM BST
A single 1000 Guineas and Breeders Cup Mile totally sheisse with sprinters where is this guys record with speed horses to justify 5/1 fav for a 2000 Guineas. Horrific value this trainer is no HRAC when honing Classic speed.
Report eric_morris October 11, 2013 8:06 PM BST
Wolfhound aside :)
Report eric_morris October 11, 2013 8:22 PM BST
In his favour ... looks a v poor Guineas in depth coming up.
Report A_T October 11, 2013 9:26 PM BST
Oasis Dream was quite fast
Report unclepuncle October 13, 2013 6:56 PM BST
Great to see you back Eric.Devil
Report pedrobob October 27, 2013 11:41 AM GMT
Gosden told Chapman on ATR Kingman had surgery to remove a chip above the ankle, apparently the dam had he same problem. Trainer thought he had a good chance in the Jean Luc Lagardere before that diagnosed.
Shame Chapman didn't press him further and ask how much it will have interrupted his training programme
Report BJG October 27, 2013 2:00 PM GMT
Trainer John Gosden is looking forward to preparing Kingman for his three-year-old campaign after the colt underwent minor surgery for an ankle problem.

The Khalid Abdullah-owned colt goes into winter quarters as ante-post favourite for the Qipco 2000 Guineas in many books, despite having to miss the Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere at Longchamp three weeks ago.

Kingman looked a colt with huge potential when following up a six-length debut success at Newmarket with a smooth victory in the Group Three Solario Stakes at Sandown in August.

Gosden told At The Races: "He had to go in for surgery, which is never ideal. He was coming up to the Jean-Luc Lagardere in good form and I think he'd have been very hard to beat in it.

"He seems to be doing fine. He's back at the farm (Juddmonte) now. Let's see when we get him back in and prepare him for the spring.

"It was just a little surgery on an ankle. His mother had a similar issue and it tends to run a bit in the family.

"It's just a minor thing, a little chip, but enough to stop you running."
Report pedrobob February 11, 2014 11:11 AM GMT
yesterday's RP, Gosden said Kingman back cantering and still planning to go for Guineas. Has been walking and trotting up to now
Report harry callaghan March 17, 2014 6:28 PM GMT
Connections of Qipco 2000 Guineas favourite Kingman will consider giving the exciting colt a prep run ahead of his potential Classic bid at Newmarket on May 3.

John Gosden's son of Invincible Spirit made a huge impression when striking by six lengths on his July Course debut at the of June and took the step up to Pattern class in his stride when easing to victory in Sandown's Solario Stakes two months later.

The youngster missed an intended run on Arc weekend at Longchamp in October, having a chip in a joint surgically removed, but has pleased his team since returning from his winter break.

Teddy Grimthorpe, racing manager for owner Khalid Abdullah, said: "Kingman is fine. He had a very good winter and everyone is pleased with him.

"He hasn't done a lot so far this year, but he is in strong exercise now and all the reports I've had from John have been good.

"I think it's a bit early to say (whether he will run before the Guineas).

"I think ideally John would perhaps like to give him a run if he could, but obviously we will wait and see how the horse is doing nearer the time.

"He's had a bit of a lay-off, but at the same time he's in good form."
Report pedrobob March 17, 2014 6:36 PM GMT
would be great of he could show up in the Craven and get some course experience
Report FELTFAIR March 17, 2014 6:42 PM GMT
Harry were Teddy Grimthorpe`s comments made recently?
Report harry callaghan March 17, 2014 6:48 PM GMT
today i think feltfair...on atr website
Report harry callaghan March 17, 2014 6:52 PM GMT
yep today
Report FELTFAIR March 17, 2014 7:02 PM GMT
Thankyou.
Report FELTFAIR April 14, 2014 9:14 PM BST
Hope you stayed faithful Pedro. The clock rarely lies. Layed 11/8 today, you know it makes sense.GrinGrin
Report pedrobob April 14, 2014 9:32 PM BST
kept the faith Feltfair, just hoping Kingman stays sound now and runs his race.

If something good enough to beat him, will be a great contest
Report FELTFAIR April 14, 2014 10:15 PM BST
From a pure financial standpoint I would like War Command to turn up and I will get the jackpot whoever wins. Here`s hoping.GrinGrin
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