You answer your own points there Cry. Faster than the Abbey and Moonlight Cloud in the finish? They went fast early on in those races and died at the end, unlike the Arc. They went no pace so getting the position you thought was so costly was exactly the opposite. It was costly for those who both waited too long and got into bother. I suggest you watch it again where virtually the whole field come in the straight on the bridle. Unlike in Danedream's Arc where the field turned into the straight flat out.

I thought Treve looked exceptional obviously but one swallow does not a summer make. My only bone of contention is when people claim it was a great field she beat, it wasn't. And I am prepared to wait until she runs without the obvious and proven advantages a 3 year old filly gets at this time of year before I acclaim her as a great on the known form. I have seen many horses bolt up then fail to sustain it so I can wait.

Next season there are many races restricted to 4 year olds and upwards or for fillies only so she should make hay.

The ratings agencies can say what they like. Apparently she is rated 1lb higher that Excelebration. Is that good? Apparently she is rated 1lb lower than Black Caviar unbeaten winner of 15 Group 1's. I don't care what the current 'expert' ratings agencies say. I'll be more interested in what she wins next season and what she beats. I wouldn't give a single toss what the ratings agencies say. They even dropped some horses last season because their figures didn't add up.

Pedro I don't rate here the equal of or higher than any of those you mentioned with Dalakhani the exception. He beat Mubtaker who Hurricane Run subsequently beat by miles.

The problem is Treve is fresh and the others we know more about. I have never been a great STS fan because his Arc wasn't great either and I'm not really sure beating Fame and Glory and Rip Van Winkle amounts to super stardom. Zarkave beat better horses, came from last to first in the Arc but then retired. Danedream won in record time in a stronger Arc than Treve's but then showed as a 4 yeat old how beneficial the 3 year old allowance can be. Hurricane Run looked spectacular at the time, like Treve, but it turned out he beat nothing in the Arc. Sakhee was exceptional in the Arc and bolted up beating a Vermielle winner but the rest weren't great. The last 3 Montjeu (my favourite), Sinndar and Pientre Celebre were simply better horses  but again were 3 year olds who were either retired or failed to show their form properly at 4 years old. They all won very hot Arc's beating previous Arc winners easily.

Treve never beat an Arc winner and Orfevre's 2nd in the Arc the year before must have been among the worst Arc' run with no Gr1 winners coming from the first 10 horses home.

Just think Pedro when Frankie`s back in the plate next year sky is the limit.

In 2013 in UK,

Frankie Dettori 16-205 for 8% strike rate, loss of 120.24, £144,084 win prize money, 

Johnny Murtagh 14-63 for 22% strike rate, profit of 44.25, £1,415,331 win prize money....

Feltfair, your undimmed admiration for Frankie is admirable 
But I doubt he can help your pocket too much .....

brigust coming from last to first is irrelevant it does not make a win any better.

Your last 2 comments show how far we are apart AT. I think I have made my views clear, as have you. Best of luck.

Treve was clearly different class on the day but I'm with Brigust on this. Timeform have Treve 134, 8lbs of which is credited for wfa. So to run to the same mark next year she'll need to improve 8lbs. Maybe she'll do just that but it's far from a given. For me, Danedream's win had a far more solid look to the form, even allowing that her main opponents weren't quite at their best. She proved it was no fluke when winning the King George the next year, however, it did go to show that she wasn't really 6 lengths superior to St Nic, as a literal reading of the Arc form suggested. Next year will Treve be beating 130 rated horses (assuming there are any around) comfortably by 2 lengths and upwards in a truly run race when meeting those horses at the peak of their powers? I can't answer that for sure, but at likely short odds I'd be looking to oppose her.

The point about WFA is a good one. It's arguable that horses that excel at 3 are merely precocious. If they don't race at 4+ you can never really tell whether they are outstanding horses or just ones who developed early and benefited from  generous age allowances. Perhaps the only real champions are the ones who continue to do it at 4+ like the Brigadier, Frankel, Miesque, Alleged. We'll see what Treve does next year.

No I never lump together. I look at each race on it's merits. I do think Hong Kong and especially Singapore races are generally easier to win the Japanese much things change and it depends upon the opposition. The JP is generally run at a generous pace and the course average time is similar to Longchamp I think. May be wrong there but I did look it up once.

The reasons I came to my conclusions about the Arc is because I went through every runner and every bit of form and it just left me flat. I really do like stars running.

In my calculations I rate German, Italian and Singapore Gr1's as Group 2's and Meydan is rapidly heading that way. But, as I have said it does depend upon the runners.

It will be an interesting race if only to find out how good Novellist is by comparison.

Gentildonna has still to prove she didn't win this last year because of her WFA allowance. In her fillies only wins before that she beat Verxina into 2nd 4 times so there doesn't look like strength in depth in that division.

Orfevre did the same as a 3 year old beating the same horse 3 times.

Kizuna as I have said won a 2 horse Japanese Derby where the next 4 home haven't won a Gr1 between them before or since.

Gold Ship seems a bit in and out and Fenormeno stays 2 miles.

All in all we seem to be lacking a couple of real stars in many divisions, like Treve, to look forward to, win or lose.

Pedro, won 55k on Authorized when he won the Epsom Derby with Frankie doing the steering. Would you be a fan?

Feltfair, can understand the allegiance now!
I hope 2007 was the last year you entrusted him with your hard earned....

^ Thanks for the youtube link.
They dressed up for their appearance this year.

Sooooo Novellist sold to the same owners as Orfevre.....gotta wonder if he really was sick Arc weekend.

So 2nd year running the German Arc co-favourite/best form horse is withdrawn in the week leading up to the race under dubious circumstances only to be retired to Japan. LMAO. Should have bought Treve instead. Makes it kind of awesome that Treve p***** all over Orfevre.