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Monte Christo
08 Oct 12 14:58
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Date Joined: 17 Mar 04
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Has anyone any idea when the books are out this year ?

TIA.

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By:
Chad Collins number wan
When: 08 Oct 12 19:47
12 Oct I think https://www.racingpost.com/bookshop/jumps-racing/racing-post-guide-to-the-jumps-2012-2013--pre-order-today-/945
By:
Millerracing67
When: 09 Oct 12 13:32
They are ready to order now (from 5th Oct) with Raceform. Tel: 01933 304858.
By:
Monte Christo
When: 09 Oct 12 13:41
Thanks guys , much appreciated.

Need plenty of study time.Grin
By:
Chad Collins number wan
When: 15 Oct 12 13:44
Just got my book and we will indeed need plenty of study time, major changes this year...

1. Change of bonus races - International Hurdle and Aintree hurdle replace the Tote Trophy and Racing Post chase (good move this IMO) - means more slots for your 2m-2.5m hurdlers
2. Only £5 per line, not £10 so loads more perms, but loads more entries to beat!
3. No sub window in Feb, so get your GN types in up front if that's your thing
4. Comp starts with PPGC as usual but you can leave entries till end November (seems daft to do that intentionally but good if folk have missed the deadline)
5. Price bonus – now you get bonus for any horse that wins, based on its actual tote win price, not any banding as in the past
6. “Star horses” – each line has a nominated horse that gets double price bonus points for any wins.  So pick a 20-1 winner of a bonus race and you'll get 90 points.

Should be interesting anyway!
By:
JOCI Club
When: 15 Oct 12 19:44
Thanks - that's an interesting set of changes.
By:
TEN2FOLLOWER
When: 15 Oct 12 21:25
No book here yet.

You'd think with me being so high in the flat list that I'd get priority.  Laugh
By:
duffy
When: 15 Oct 12 21:58
Very good set of changes imo, trying to figure out the racing post winner as a bonus race was nigh on impossible and a waste, the move to let you enter later but at a cost of missing out on the PP bonus race could pay off as you'd be steered toward some fancied horses there after i suppose, plus if something wins that is a skinner in terms of the comp you'd have got away with it(i'd still enter at the start though)Grin.....all in all, very exciting changes.
By:
tomdeane
When: 16 Oct 12 07:38
Yes, I like these a lot.

The Tote price seems a good addition, too, although it does leave the possibility of someone putting together a superb perm only to see it get chinned by a "Star horse" that wins at 66-1! Not sure if he was in it but Mister McGoldrick paid 147.00 when he won at the Festival in 2008, in what would have been a 25-point race. So by my calculations, he would have been given 319 points for that!

The move to make it a fiver a go is genius, as that will encourage more perms up front. Plus, a lot of people will re-enter after the Paddy Power, especially if it is won by an outsider.
By:
REM
When: 16 Oct 12 08:56
Thanks for the heads up. Not surprised they dropped the RP chase as it's no longer the RP chase (I have actually targeted this for the Feb prize and came up with the winner one year, but still missed out on the monthly prize). Note sure about the Tote price change or the star horse. There's a real prospect of turning this into a lottery - or is that the intention? To encourage entries beyond the bonus races all they had to do was drop the bonus. The drop back to $5 will encourage me to get stuck in, but more likely to play with dark horses for a smash and grab rather than conventional perms. I wonder if the new Tote owner has a hand in this?
By:
Chad Collins number wan
When: 16 Oct 12 11:33
Seems like the price bonus points are capped at 50, but yes with the star horse that could still be 100, so a random big priced handicap winner could easily have a massive impact on the comp...
By:
Dooberama
When: 16 Oct 12 12:24
Just hate the star horse thing.  It is already the case that if you miss a popular big winner, you have no chance of winning, now I expect you'll need to get your star horse in to the top 2 or 3 points scorers to win.

I don't like the £5 thing either.  Entering a lot of lists is already a pain.  I have been caught out several times by the hanging flakey site and losing several entries, it can only be worse with double the entries.  You can't really counter this either, as if you enter them in blocks, it is inevitable the bank block your card. There is absolutely zero chance we will spend more money on the competition because of this change.

The late entry thing feels really messy.  I assume you can't pick winners in arears, so do you leave half your entries until after the paddy power hoping for a skinner?  Then if a favourite wins, you never enter your 2nd lot?  Or do you have to commit more than you intended after a skinner?  And, perish the thought, what happens if the Paddy Power winner gets a nasty injury or dies, do we all commit another lump to the competition? Is it ethical to still take entries after the favourite has won the Paddy Power? Wasn't there a problem a few years ago with people making paid entries for competitions they had no chance of winning? Terrible idea.

So I just don't appear as too much of a moaner:

I am glad the price bonus is capped at 50, so lose my objection to that.

The subs change is welcome, as I never really took to them, and the new bonus races are a clear improvement.

But this all feels like too much at once, if the prize fund falls, how do they know what caused it?  Evolution is surely better than revolution?
By:
duffy
When: 16 Oct 12 14:09
There may be something to the idea of putting in a line on the eve of hennessy/fighting fifth weekend so you have the definite runners to choose from I suppose, especially if the PP was won by an outsider.

With the hen/FF being on december 1st, you could get off to a flyer for the december prize with the entries in front of you.
By:
Waterwheel Inc.
When: 16 Oct 12 20:26
Just got my book and was a bit caught out by the changes. Whilst scrapping the Totesport Trophy and RP Chase makes obvious sense, I came on here expecting a bit more discontent.

For my part I'm left unenthused for the competition now and the star horse rule in particular is bo**ocks! It all feels much like a fantasy football structure and though I love playing fantasy football I feel the structure was right for this comp as it was.

The delayed entry (a common thing in ff) and the star horse are making it feel like a lot more of a lottery.

The way to play it that immediately comes to mind for me is to target any big priced fancies during the late entry period as star horses in otherwise straightforward lists. I cannot think of another way to extract any value from my 'star horse' (I hate even having to refer to it with that stupid name).

I'll enter simply because I always do, but I'm not looking forward to it as much anymore.
By:
Dooberama
When: 16 Oct 12 21:17
Can we pick big price winners that have already happened and get the points for them? 

I read it that way originally and thought I must have misunderstood. Surely that can't be right?
By:
duffy
When: 16 Oct 12 21:33
no-one would enter for the first day and if there was a november prize there would be a 40000 way dead heatGrin
By:
tomdeane
When: 17 Oct 12 00:53
Waterwheel's logic seems sound - I think the star horse is probably best used by picking an outsider with a chance the day before the competition starts. Hopefully, if you pick one in the Paddy Power that you like at a price, you should have more chances with it throughout the season even if it disappoints in the big one.

I have a feeling this extra 'lottery' element will appeal more to the small to mid-perm player and put a lot of the bigger players off, so it'll be interesting to see how the prize funds are affected. I still think they'll be bigger as more people will be tempted to re-enter new perms before December 1.
By:
duffy
When: 17 Oct 12 01:15
There will be huge swathes of entries put in at the end of november consisting of horses running over the hen/ff weekend along with a bula and kg horse, trying to pick up the december prize.
By:
Chad Collins number wan
When: 17 Oct 12 08:41
I guess overall I am probably just about in favour of the changes, not sure if it'll mean a bigger prize fund or not though.  £5 per entry in some way negates the random factor brought in by the new price and star horse rules, i.e. you can go your same overall number of normal, structured entries using a quite tightly permed shortlist but then have a load of off the wall, more random entries as well - at least that's my initial thought on how to play it.

I think at the end of last season the Peter Martin guys said that would be their last go, but interested to see what they make of the changes - http://petermartinconsult.supanet.com/racing/ttf/current.htm
By:
ChildOfMine2
When: 17 Oct 12 09:17
Like most of the changes except tCoolhe late entries - Half the fun was trying to pick the PP winner Excited
By:
Clerkmore
When: 17 Oct 12 13:06
You can now enter in Betfred shops now also. I don't know whether or not that will make any difference to the number of entries. One thing that hasn't changed is that they are taking 30% of the pool!
By:
Clerkmore
When: 17 Oct 12 13:07
1 "now" was enough in the first sentence.
By:
ChildOfMine2
When: 17 Oct 12 14:08
Are Betfred the sponsors this year?
By:
Clerkmore
When: 18 Oct 12 18:36
No monthly prizes is also a big change!
By:
D Route V E Bleu
When: 18 Oct 12 20:14
No monthly prizes is a shocker i say,for most of us atleast we gain interest every 1st of the month for Jan Feb and March when no chance of getting in top ten for overall.
With no bonus window,looks like we'll have to get our Arkle/RSA horses in from the off instead of Feb for Chelt,throw in the late entries available and tote bonus star horse scenario - dead easy ha
The fiver and 2 replaced bonus races are fine by me
By:
Exotic Dancer is my banker
When: 19 Oct 12 01:30
I have never liked the bonus horses; the benefit of adding a bit of interest for the festival prize was massively outweighed by having shrwed november picks marginalised (especially novice chasers).

I have previously suggested getting rid of the boundaries for bonus points and actually like the reduced cap (would prefer 20 points) and the star horse. Identifying potential outsiders becomes important whilst the impact of big priced 'flukes' is reduced.

As regards bonus races i would prefer to see fewer, instead having a new tier of 30 point races (value over 50,000) with tweaks to the other bands. I would also like to see points for 2nd and 3rd places (structure 10,4,2 up to 50,20,10).

I hope that the number of horses is sufficient to prevent noticeable omissions and would prefer the list to be revised as late as possible (the book containing the first of two list editions) so that injured horses can be removed and replaced with horses that have recently come to attention.
By:
aft
When: 19 Oct 12 06:43
Duffy - you seem to be ignoring the fact that there are NO monthly prizes!

The major deficiency in the rules is that (even disregarding the difficulty of pinpointing the moment when late entries are deemed to be received) there is no indication as to when late entries become activated. Are points accrued for races scheduled/started/finished one second/ten minutes/one hour/one day after receipt?
I think we should be told!
By:
ChildOfMine2
When: 19 Oct 12 07:25
This is beginning to sound more and more complicated, especially the late entries rule (unless lates can only be done online) - Recipe for disaster perhaps?
By:
aft
When: 19 Oct 12 08:31
Who knows - perhaps late entries don't score any points until 1st December!
It is a shambles!
By:
duffy
When: 19 Oct 12 13:08
aft
no, didn't know about the monthly prizes being done away with, don't have the book so just following it on this thread, surely there must be a deadline where late entries have to be in by and then start scoring by.!!
By:
REM
When: 21 Oct 12 09:33
Book arrived yesterday.

On reflection I think the bonus points for win and place will make hcappers more attractive than in the past (but how many are there in a list of 400?). I think, however, that removing the monthly prize and subs is a bad move. It's now all-in for the big prize and there is no way to overcome an injury. Perhaps it should be 12 selections with just the best 10 actually scoring - that way you can carry two zeros. I sense that they want a lottery, but where's the fun in studying and plotting if any ten has as much chance as any other?

Do the PP gold cup entries come out this week btw?
By:
penzance
When: 21 Oct 12 11:46
no monthly prize,any big meeting prizes?
cheers.
By:
duffy
When: 21 Oct 12 16:56
Will we have the big launch tomorrow in the paper?
By:
Chad Collins number wan
When: 22 Oct 12 10:12
It's very interesting about the no monthly prizes thing, I only picked that up after a few readings of the book, they don't highlight it as far as I can tell - only give the overall %age dividend...
By:
TEN2FOLLOWER
When: 22 Oct 12 18:35
I don't like the lack of month or meeting prizes.
By:
Chad Collins number wan
When: 23 Oct 12 20:42
Agreed, lots of people are going to be dead and gone by December, the monthly prizes kept the interest right to the end of the comp.  Starting on shortlist now, lots of work to be done, although the cheaper price has definitely encouraged more people to join my wee syndicate, so that's good news!
By:
ChildOfMine2
When: 25 Oct 12 06:27
Lads, theres a ten to follow comp on the Irish Sports forum.for whoever wants to enter. Its free and Betfair have put up a prize fund.
By:
trev w
When: 25 Oct 12 19:37
no monthlys is a terrible idea....the big permers will just enter even more @ 5 a go....and not worth looking at your listd till chelts....used to like thinking of landing 10k for x masSad
By:
Chad Collins number wan
When: 26 Oct 12 08:08
^^^ you're right, always used to follow things closely week by week, now no point at all in even thinking about it till Chelters...
By:
duffy
When: 26 Oct 12 14:26
childofmine
only irish trained horses though?
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