Horse Antepost
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05 Jun 12
15:25
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Date Joined:
09 Mar 04
IF and if its a big IF....but if the Frankel vs Black Caviar race happened in the Sussex then I think O'Brien would have an interesting decision to make.
I mean Camelot is a triple mile and Guineas winner and with Black C and Frankel duking it out for 6 to 7 furlongs (maybe even 7.5furlongs)...it could just leave 1 of them in front but totally dead in the water in the last 50 yards or so. You all saw how Frankel was in the St James albeit he's a lot stronger this season but if he ended up like that he would be vulnerable to an ultra strong closer like Camelot.
If they lost then fine...they could save loads of face by pointing out the horse is better at 10f+ but if he won well jesus almighty christ they would've just taking out the top top rated horses in the world. Could retire him right there and then and hail him as the greatest of all time and make zillions at stud.
(yep spent too much time in imaginary land this weekend) but you could see where I'm comming from here.
I mean Camelot is a triple mile and Guineas winner and with Black C and Frankel duking it out for 6 to 7 furlongs (maybe even 7.5furlongs)...it could just leave 1 of them in front but totally dead in the water in the last 50 yards or so. You all saw how Frankel was in the St James albeit he's a lot stronger this season but if he ended up like that he would be vulnerable to an ultra strong closer like Camelot.
If they lost then fine...they could save loads of face by pointing out the horse is better at 10f+ but if he won well jesus almighty christ they would've just taking out the top top rated horses in the world. Could retire him right there and then and hail him as the greatest of all time and make zillions at stud.
(yep spent too much time in imaginary land this weekend) but you could see where I'm comming from here.
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Frankel's wearyness in the final furlong of the St.James was almost certainly down to an impulsive ride from TPQueally. He kicked for home with 4 furlongs to run. It was amazing Frankel won, really.
Not sure if you are aware Elg but the trainer of BC has already said she wont run at Goodwood and she has no entry. |
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was thinking the Falmouth would be right up her street.
they go fairly slow in that sometimes so it could be her's for the taking. |
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You can be sure Coolmore will throw as much ammo as possible to try and lower Frankels colours this season. Maybe the Eclipse might be Camelots chance, though i dont fink ive seen owt to beat Frankel yet !
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doubt you will see Frankels colours lowered in the Eclipse.
Very surprised if he goes there. |
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Coolmore will not go anywhere near Frankel.Not because they dont think he can be beaten(Although i very much doubt it myself) but why would they want to try and lower the colours of an unbeaten son of Galileo!! Makes no commercial sense whatsoever and therfore will never happen.
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im sure they wouldnt mind too much if he's beaten by another of their future stallions to be honest.
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It's hard to think of any of the past Guineas legends beating Frankel over a mile and Camelot was hardly a vintage Guineas winner. Frankel would absolutely murder him over a mile or anything shorter.
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Coolmore win either way.
No lose situation |
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Coolmore are a breeding operation above everything else.They want 2 UNBEATEN colts.One son of Galileo and one son of Monjeau.Mark my words these two will NEVER meet.
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not saying they'll ever meet(extremely unlikely) but cant see how frankel going unbeaten will make them any more money from galileo?
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Plat', I'm too young to remember the Brigadier, but I do remember El Gran Senor and I reckon he'd give Frankel something to think about. At least that's the view of a rum-induced heretic anyway!
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I liked El Gran Senor too Mystic. I also remember the Brigadier.
I personally think that The Brigadier was about the same sort of horse as Frankel in terms of ability. He was a bit more tractable though, enabling him to perform well at 10 and even 12 furlongs. He has just an amazing prolonged and just withering turn of foot - his defeat of Sparkler a brilliant French champion miler by (I think it might have been 6 lengths) was certainly Frankel type form. We'll never know but he was a very great miler too. El Gran Senor - maybe 6 lbs behind the pair. |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOOoh3UPujU&feature=related
This is quite a decent quality piece of The Brigadier. Similarities to Frankel are quite striking; taking it up 2 out and bolting clear without apparent effort. If I was making a book it would be 10/11 Frankel 10/11 Brigadier 12/1 Bar any other miler I can remember Chances of Camelot meeting Frankel - zero in my view. Coolmore have a lot to lose through everyone seeing Camelot get utterly stuffed by Frankel. |
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Thanks for the link Cry', pretty Frankel-like as you say.
However, this is still the best Guineas I've, not just because of the ease of his win but also because who he beat: Chief Singer, Lear Fan, Rainbow Quest, Keen.... The way he moves from midfield into the lead is just pure class, worth a watch a least. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOk9wPGokPA |
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I'm not sure I buy into this stud value argument.
I agree that if Frankel gets beaten, it will not make a jot of difference to Galileo's stud career. In that respect his value is set and his record immense - whatever happens Frankel will go down as one of the best milers ever. Potentially the people who would lose out on Frankel getting beaten are Juddmonte, but again would breeders really not use him if he got beaten by Camelot over 10F? No. Would his fee be lower - possibly by a small amount but surely his his legacy is already written. If they were that scared about him getting beaten, they would not have kept him in training. When it comes to Camelot, I can see that 'unbeaten son of Montjeu' will be an attractive marketing proposition. But he is already a champion son of a champion sire and that bloodline will be one that breeders will be extremely keen to buy into. It appears that the die is cast for him to go for the St Leger to hopefully complete the triple crown. We still talk about Nijinsky to this day and he wasn't unbeaten. The only nagging doubt about Camelot is the fact that this year's classic crop do look below standard and he will likely need to prove himself in an all-aged race. He may go Irish Derby and then St Leger, which would then leave him two potential opportunities as I don't see them sending him to the Breeders Cup The Arc would probably be the most likely but what a great end to the season it would be if he went to the Champion Stakes to meet Frankel. I actually think that both parties are actually very sporting and the interest that could build in this meeting would be immense, and just what the Qipco series was designed to achieve. A bit starry eyed I accept, but I could see this happen |
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Yes Mystic
I remember El Gran Señor well, he was underrated. However, he beat Chief Singer 3l. The Brigadier beat MIll Reef and My Swallow 3l. Chief Singer was a top class horse alright, he won the Coventry Stakes first time out at 2! He was no Mill Reef though. I reckon ELG was a 136+ horse, Frankel and The Brigadier were/are 144 horses. It's hard to accept what The Brigadier did, a bit like Arkle as its so long ago now, but he was a monster alright. It would be fantastic if Frankel met Camelot, just fantastic. However, I think they thought Excelebration would give Frankel a hard time at Newbury. Joseph pulled his mount out to the outside to challenge Frankel, as if he expected to really have a go. THere would have been genuine surprise when Frankel beggered off to win so very far. I see Coolmore as being quite willing to have a go, but they really know what an utter monster Frankel is and will not show Camelot up by seeing him thrashed, as they realise that Camelot is a champion and a great horse, but that Frankel is a horse you see once every 40 years. |
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People always have a vested interest in talking-up their horses. Don't get me wrong, Frankel is clearly a special horse, but a lot of his 'stock' is based on his 5l demolition of Canford Cliffs at Goodwood. Canford Cliffs was reportedly 'not right' after that race and promptly retired.
Apart from Canford Cliffs, what has Frankel beaten? Excelebration is a genuine Group 1 animal, but as far as Guineas form is concerned, beating multiple Group 1 winners Chief Singer, Lear Fan & Rainbow Quest carries more substance than beating Dubawi Gold & (the ordinary) Native Khan. I can't find the official distances, but from memory/Youtube, EGS beat Lear Fan at least as far as Frankel beat Native Khan, and the latter ain't no Lear Fan. All opinions of course, which is what makes this sport fascinating. |
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Even a 5l beating of CC 'only' puts Frankel in the region of 138. The remainder of his form is pretty consistent around the 135 mark. Still a bl00dy good horse, but not definitely better than EGS.
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EGS rating is based on one race and he never raced at weight-for-age.
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I reckon Frankel ran over 140 this season and that was first time out with more to come.
I was genuinely surprised he demolished a fit and fancied Excelebration like he did, very surprised actually. I do like these sort of discussions though, and of course EGS was brilliant, and at the end quite unexposed too. He retired too young like a few around the same time. I always thought another vincent OB horse - Golden Fleece was possibly a true great - but he retired early then went and died before he could do anything at stud. |
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On my handicapping Frankel consistently runs to around the 135 mark. Using the exposed Side Glance as a yardstick, I think he did the same again today. A true champion, but not worthy of a 140+ mark (yet).
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Mystic Wind, what about the time he clocked today? It was extraordinarily fast compared to the rest of the straight times. Personally I reckon the last 5f rode a bit slower and the Windsor Castle looks a poor race, nevertheless, the Coventry was at least up to standard.
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