Andrew in Sweden
10 Jun 12 05:18
Joined:
10 Nov 07
| Topic/replies: 1,501 | Blogger: Andrew in Sweden's blog
i like henry as much as everyone else but he got frankels campaign wrong,

So one of the best trainers of all time is wrong ..... and you're correct. I didn't realise this forum had posters of such high esteem.


andrew, its just my opinion, henry is an all time great trainer, one of the best, esp of fillies, and frankel is one of the best milers ive ever seen but i dont think he got it right with frankel, yes hes unbeaten, hes been given poor rides and still won but i believe they have been too conservative with him. im not saying they should have run him in the derby, he prob wasnt ready, but its hard to argue that up until now the horse really hasnt been allowed show what he is truly capable of. there is no reason why he shouldnt have been stepped up after last years brilliant sussex performance and imo shouldve been stepped up before then. henry obv believes he will stay at least 10f now so i still dont get why he isnt running in the prince or wales.

im just keeping this debate alive, i stick to what ive said and by no means do i think I could train any racehorse better than henry or anyone else for that matter but its a forum and we should be allowed express or views openly. i dont understand why frankel is still running over a mile, no idea, i wish i did but i dont, whats the point, he'll beat whatever lines up against him and will start 2/7.

join versatility IS the main characteristic that defines a champion. thats why people dont talk about dayjur in the same breath as they do nijinsky or dancing brave.

going up in distance is the whole point once you have achieved all there is at a particular distance. frankel hasnt achieved half of what sts has. the susses, sjp, queen eliz all over a mile against the same horse, u must be feckin joking. by the time frankel beat up excelebration for the3rd or 4th time in the queen liz, sts had dominated EVERY horse over all distances. to absolutely incomparable achievements. rock of Gibraltar  couldve done what frankel did last year, but there isnt a horse since dancing brave that couldve done what sts did, perhaps camelot who imo has already achieved more imo than frankel winning both the guineas and derby, thats an incredible achievement, not beating excelebration again again and again. immortal verse is an average miler, nothing special, and  dream ahead is a sprinter, and of course i give frankel credit for beating nathaniel and TB but as i mentioned, lets see him beat them over THEIR TRIPS and not HIS for bloody once.

The big problem with Frankel's campaign as I see it is that he could run in the Juddmonte and very little
could oppose him and the race could end up proving very little. Cecil could then aim the horse at the Champion stakes on say Good to soft ground with the likes of Cirus des and a top end Ballydoyle horse in the field and end up destroying them and finishing the race with plenty of energy. If this happened then
the horse may well have been up to winning the best races 1 1/2m races, yet they've left it too late to realise
this posiblity and wasted a lot of time by running Frankel against the same horses at a mile over and over
and over again.  If this happened then Cecil would be guilty of not allowing Frankel to show his versatility and as such  the races he's run in don't do full justice to the horse.

He may well not stay a fast run 1 1/4m especially at Ascot with some give under foot and I suppose it's
possible Cecil could by-pass the Champion and take in the QE2.
If Frankel run's at York on fast ground with a small field he may not have his stamina put to the test
but if he lines up in the Champion he almost certainly will.
The Prix Jacque de Marois and Breeders Cup Mile would have been interesting races for Frankel to run
in if they do a u-turn and decide not to go beyond a mile.

Certainly have no problem with the way Frankel has been campaigned to now, though he has proven all there is to prove at a mile now, his talents are there for all to see.

It is time to step him up and prove himself the champ at 10. What better way to start than at Royal Ascot in what should be a good field. Take the Wales, the Eclipse, the International, the Irish Champ and then step up and beat a triple crown winner in the Arc... that would stamp him as the greatest...

Legendary status not yet certain

Taking on Frankel must be balanced against the danger of Camelot losing his record, says Ian McClean

Like a climber reaching base camp, it is time to momentarily pause and reflect before looking ahead to the final summit. The ripple of Camelot's achievement in winning the Epsom Derby reached as far as the following day's New York Times where it trumped even I'll Have Another's Triple Crown bid for precious column space in a broadsheet not renowned for its racing coverage.

The frailty of the thoroughbred and the transience of opportunity were sadly mirrored in that horse's 11th-hour withdrawal from the Belmont and the possibility of accomplishing a feat last achieved in the US by the mighty Affirmed in 1978. America will have to wait at least another year.

It only serves to bring into even sharper focus Camelot's future and what it might entail. One thing is for certain -- with a CV beginning to match his christening and reputation (now unbeaten in four races including three Group Ones, two of them Classics) Camelot is big box-office. Between Friday evening and last Wednesday (after the extended UK Diamond Jubilee bank holiday), fuelled by the whiff of a Triple Crown, tickets for the premier enclosure at Doncaster sold out online.

Two Camelot questions are being hotly debated: What has he accomplished so far and what should he do next? The hyperbole surrounding his Derby victory is not entirely reflected in the cold slide rule of the handicapper's rating -- falling short of Workforce, Authorized and even Aidan O'Brien's last winner, High Chaparral.

In victory last Saturday, Camelot defeated the smallest field since 1907. At least half the field will struggle to win a Group race of any kind and his main market rival, Bonfire, floundered on the tricky Epsom contours. In four races Camelot has defeated a total of 34 rivals. Between them all, his victims have won just four races -- two of those on the all-weather. It is easy, seductive almost (and compulsive when it comes to the media) to dilute perspective. After all, Marcel Duchamp walked into a plumbing suppliers in New York in 1917, bought a urinal, signed it and called it art.

That is not to say Camelot is not as 'magical' as connections have always claimed. Or that there isn't something sacred in the unblemished perfection of flawless accomplishment. Camelot has effectively reached base camp; to conquer Everest he needs to overcome his elders. When 'the boys at Coolmore' sit down at the table this week there are a number of options for Camelot. After all, he is currently favourite for the Irish Derby, King George, St Leger and the Arc -- and if they'd priced up Crufts or the 1,500m at the Olympics he'd be favourite for those as well. I'm certain the top two items on the agenda will read 'Triple Crown' and 'Frankel'.

It was interesting to hear John Magnier say after the Derby when asked about the pursuit of a Triple Crown: "We're all so old but if you'd asked me 30 years ago I'd have looked the other way". But a lot has changed and Coolmore (and those who make it up) is a different beast now. Historically, winning a St Leger has been inimical to the reputation of a young stallion.

However, Coolmore has migrated from a fledgling challenger brand back in the day to its position as world-leading brand today. Where it once followed, it now leads, and it could in that capacity single- handedly restore a creaky Leonard Cohen of a Leger back to cool high fashion.

Another cheery conundrum to spice up the Camelot round-table is the accompanying squad of Group One horses presently in the yard and how to deploy them. Magnier, as a postscript to the Derby, also referred to the fact that the Ballydoyle operation is presently going through "a good patch". Yes, and I also hear Michelangelo did a spot of painting and decorating.

Aidan O'Brien has already won seven Group Ones this year including all four UK Classics and one in Ireland. The world record number in a season is 25, held by Bobby Frankel. O'Brien's best total was 23 back in 2008. At this stage of that season he had won six. In the wings, the yard holds older horses of the calibre of So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey and Excelebration, all of whom operate in Camelot's range, not to mention Fame And Glory.

So while Camelot is the headline act, his chosen targets will be calculated as part of an overall grander scheme. The Triple Crown might represent the very pinnacle of a three year-old's achievement, but Camelot v Frankel would be the ultimate Everest for racing.

What was unlikely before, is unimaginable after todays performance. I can't see how another 2f will inconvenience Frankel to the extent that he runs 10lb below his best, which is what would be required for any horse currently in training to challenge him.

Cryoftruth

I agree that Excelebration must have been a bit below his best but that was highly likely because he tried to keep pace with Frankel. On the clock the performance is every bit as impressive as the visual display, it looks huge, Frankel's fastest run yet and well above anything I've ever rated before.

He will be even better over 10f and there has been some nice talk today about him possibly racing as a 5 yo the prince may even want this to happen

uncle if he does go Sussex ( which unfortunately is still the most likely ), he will still go Juddmonte

uncle I agree, he should go eclipse but I think he'll wait for the Sussex and as you say step up to 10F at the Juddmonte.

However don't think he's scared of SYT - I think he'd murder him tbh.

The only thing that gives me hope is as I said above he at least mentioned the eclipse post race, and then that he may run up to 4 times more this season

Got a bad feeling its just going to be the Sussex and QEII this year then retirement.

Get the feeling Henry is more than content to keep pounding Excelebration and keep Frankel unbeaten.

Dear God but if he doesn't race against a serious horse soon it will be the biggest waste in Flat racing history

Cecil said on Friday: "He seems fine, he went out yesterday for a trot and a walk and we'll feel our way. I'd say at the moment it's more likely he'll go to Goodwood and to York."

........

So that's a line through the Eclipse. Anyone want to bet he doesnt show up at York either?

The most annoying thing is that now that he has flagged York he has given everyone else plenty of time to set their horses on different paths....

Irish Champion will be strong this year!

As we know HRAC in the past has liked his colts to be specialists at one trip so dont hold your breath.

also...I was fairly disappointed to hear Sir Henry say Frankel won't be going to the Breeders Cup either.

Suppose that's my fault for being disappointed. Just thought given the name they would've at least graced the Breeders Cup once his career. shame.