he didnt 'just scrape' home in the guineas, watch the race again, he is completely on top by the line.

as for being great?

can u name any other horse that has achieved what he has? in 300 years of the sport? dancing brave couldnt do it. mil reef couldnt do it. he broke track track records and won the arc after pulling half the race after a long season, bad passage etc..

the thing about sea the stars is that there were never any excuses for him. there didnt have to be because he always had plenty left in the tank.

it wasnt a fluke.

someday another 3 yr old will do what he did, but we'll all be dead unfortunately!

well sure u could say that about any horse lava! i mean if two derby winners never met u could speculate til  the cows came home u know. He beat 9 (multiple) g1 winners in the arc alone. im of the opinion that of course there will be stronger years than others but overall, there is a window with regard to ability when talking about horses. i mean take workforces derby for example, as much as i think sea the stars or dancing brave are better than him, id wager that had they both been in WF's derby where he broke the track record, they would not have beaten him by THAT much. of course this cannot be proven, but the horse although under gf cond ran a hell of a race and he would not have been that far behind.

this is why i think sts is a remarkable horse, because he always overcame his rivals even when he looked like he might get beat as in the juddmonte. some will look at that run and say, pah, mastercraftsman, who is he? hes an irish guineas winner for a start. he is a g1 2 yr old winner too and winner of a couple more g1s (i think, i didnt check tbh) but i know his form fairly well and he is a very  very good  horse with proven g1 form. he looked to have sts in trouble but like the champion he was he pulled out more and then won comfortably. thats the problem with sts, he wasnt exhubrant so it is more difficult to impress, unlike frankel for example.

he had his excuse to throw away the arc too and couldve easy got trapped in a pocket but was able to just round the pacemakers like they werent there. it doesnt look like anything but he clears them in a matter of strides and thats where the race was won and where we wouldve been talking about where mike lost the race had he been a lesser horse. he also raced once a month for 6 months and was truly tested to the extreme unlike frankel which is a pity. and to win all of theose races inc guineas / derby / arc he had to be a special horse. was that year SO weak that a horse could finally complete the treble at 3? in all the years and after all the greats that have passed through our hands? none of them could manage it. there was always something, poor rides, poor temprement, injury etc. there was never any excuse for this horse because he always got himself out of trouble but because he could manage that people put the form down even tho his form is rock solid. sure like anyones form if u look closely enough u will find holes and i will find holes in any horse u mention if u like. sure we'll mention delegator , but he was a good horse with meehan imo, and godolphin are a terrible operation. fame and glory is often regarded as a slow boat. just look at the races hes won. theres npo doubt hes a stayer but he beat everything bar sts in the derby. and rip and mastercrafetman are multiple g1 winners. conduit won 2 breeders cup turfs and a king george and the leger and was also 4th in a japan cup.

cityscape
lord shanakil
stacelita
dar re mi

all g1 winners and  multiple gp1 winners who have v close form with midday, sariska, and even canford so this definitely not a below average year and infact stands up to far better scrunity than even frankels  form collectively as a group of horses.

zarkava too as brilliant as she was faced fillies her entire life at her home track only running away from longchamp only once and to think what sts did, travelled and connections were scared of a challenge however she did follow the typical french classic campaign so for that she prob cant be crabbed too much but her achievements in comparison with regard to races won pale in comparision to sts. she only faced 2 decent fillys in her life in goldikova and dar re mi and albeit they were v good, goldi improved massively as she got older and if u look at her record at longchamp, it appears she doesnt love that track given her win % there compared to her other races. the rest of the fillies did well to win listed races, the form is diabolical. of course she did win the arc in great fashion and nobody can take that from her but she was prepped for that race and given a mid season rest. sts didnt have the luxury as his metal was being tested by g1 winners every race.

to top it all off mick kinane rode the iron horse and montjeu amongst others and said sts was easily the best hes ever ridden and not only that, he said he only ever got through 75% of the horses ability, and judging by the campaign he had, the trip he had in the arc and the way he eventually won the race, i believe him.

all the best.

ilikewavingatbuses - an excellent reply to my post. It is indeed nice to share opinions with a person who has genuine knowledge to back up his own opinions.

The form of the STS Derby is indeed not great and that can't really be denied as Fame And Glory is still a grinder and at the time RVW was more of a Coolmore hypester than performer. Conduit improved for me late in the season and his win in the BC Turf was a really top quality effort but clearly not on the scale of STS. If kinane said STS was better than the mighty Iron horse then that is indeed impressive. 

To be fair also STS never ducked any race and you can only beat the opposition put in fron of you and he certainly did that!!! Numerous tracks all victories and no excuses.

This indeed is something other trainers could learn from. Examples of this are Richard Hannon who treated Canford Cliffs like a china doll always taking the safe option and missing any race because the horse sneezed three weeks prior an engagement!!! Thankfully however CC goes what he and Hannon deserved when Frankle whooped em!!! After that Hannon realising his apple would get tonked ongoing by Frankle promptly retired the horse and then stated CC didn't run his race!!! Richie baby CC was never that good and he got thoroughly exposed as being good but not the great you made him out to be!!!