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GN..End is near?
GN..End is near?
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boy wonder, at last some sense couldn't have put it better myself the problem is from the moment aintree started making changes in the late eighties the genie was out of the bottle.As for the national waning in popularity with the general public after last years fatality's, the turnover on the race says otherwise.
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boy wonder, they have fucled up and made it worse, they need to unfucl it...
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all the negative publicity from last year has had the opposite effect in terms of viewers and attendances. Us humans eh? We're all animals deep down.
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Even if true, which it may well be, saying we're going to run the race over bigger fences with worse horses carrying more weight isn't going to wash.
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Yes of course who neede to see changes in the 80's it was great seeing Dark Ivy flop to ground with a broken neck, or Julian Wilsons commentary in 89 "The field have to avoid a dead horse" 2 died at Beechers that year, one Brown Trix fell in the brook with a broken back.
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Dark Ivy incident could have happened anywhere though, the horse just in front immediately to his left jumped right and the horse just in front immediately to his right jumped left, result he hit the fence half way up and did a full somersault. Again, crowding was the problem rather than the fence in itself. Less runners, lessen the drop even more on the outside at Beechers are the only options.
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Sorry to be negative on a thread full of positive ideas but making the fences bigger and using increased danger as a speed deterrant doesn't sound like it will work or be approved. If they need slowing down then all i can think of are weight, ground and inclines.
Also I dont think flatening the outside of bechers particularly works either - everyone will still risk a drop rather than risk losing ground because the jockeys think they can always try again next year if the horse gets wiped out. |
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Agree it is unlikely the changes can be undone but 10 less runners would have an effect as there would simply be less of them going for that same ground and giving riders a reason to choose the outside at Beechers would make sense too, even if only one or two did. Can remember Rhyme N Reason being wide when he made his mistake there, didn't cost him the race.
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Maybe im being harsh, I suppose some jocks are intelligent enough to go wide and safe - dont think many though!
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Close analysis of the fatalities over the years proves, without a shadow of a doubt, that weight of numbers is not an issue. Since 1980's Only Duncreggan in 1983 could be argued, as a result of having no space to jump.
It's been mentioned on this thread, and elsewhere, that horses should meet a strict qualifying criteria, and have to show an aptitude for the fences. Sadly, this would be nothing more than a waste of time. People read too much into experience over the fences, and although some horses obviously take to it, it's no guarantee that they'll always be a safe conveyance. It's unlikely that Black Apalachi will be back, but if he did, he would be labelled an "Aintree Specialist", despite failing to get round on 3 out of 5 occasions he's tackled the fences. Apologies for the length of this list, but hopefully it'll go some way to proving the above point. It doesn't include, Pulled Ups, Brought Downs, Carried Out, or Slipped Saddles. Winners who've failed to get round on other attempts over the fences. Gay Trip Rubstic Aldaniti Corbiere Hallo Dandy West Tip Little Polvier (twice) Seagram Party Politics Royal Athlete Rough Quest Red Marauder Bindaree (twice) Hedgehunter Silver Birch Mon Mome Placed horses since 1980 who've failed to get round on other attempts Royal Stuart (twice) Rough And Tumble Three To One (FOUR times) Spartan Missile Royal Mail (twice) Delmoss (twice) Lastofthebrownies Rinus Brown Windsor Romany King Lauras Beau Docklands Express Moorcroft Boy Camelot Knight Superior Finish Addington Boy Blowing Wind What's Up Boys Lord Atterbury Clan Royal Royal Auclair (Three times) Philson Run McKelvey My Will State Of Play Black Apalachi (Three times) Winners of The Becher Chase, The Topham, & The Foxhunters, who've failed to complete on other attempts Indian Tonic (Twice) Into The Red Young Hustler Young Kenny Ardent Scout Vic Venturi Hello Bud Tiepolino Glenrue Won't be Gone Long JJ Henry Northern Starlight Gower Slave Clan Royal Dunbrody Millar Irish Raptor (twice) Gwanako (Three times) Eliogarty Double Silk Blue Cheek Killeshin Torduff Express Forest Gunner (Twice) Katarino Scots Grey (twice) Christy Beamish Trust Fund Cloudy Lane It's often stated that horses have to be of a certain standard, here's a list of horses who have ran in The Gold Cup, who have failed to get round. Bonanza Boy Golden Freeze The Fellow Black Humour Chatham Master Oats Challenger Du Luc Banjo Senor El Betrutti Double Thriller Escartefigue The Last Fling Rince Ri Marlborough Alexander Banquet (twice) You're Agoodun First Gold Take The Stand (twice) Ballycassidy (three times) L'Ami Monkerhostin Tikram Iznogoud Idle Talk (twice) My Will Iron Man (three times) Knowhere (twice) Contraband Ollie Magern Madison Du Berlais Calgary Bay Tidal Bay Weird Al Synchronised I think that's enough, without having to list horses who have won or went close in The Other Nationals, The Whitbread, The Hennessy, Racing Post Chase etc. Change is needed, I'm a Grand National "nut", and I sometimes hate myself for it. It needs the powers that be, to really look at it closely, and actaully think about it, rather than just guess. Ignore the number of runners, ignore the obsession with getting a "classy" field. These aren't factors, and won't improve the safety one little bit. Keep Bechers in all but name, level the damn thing out completely (can't believe I'm saying this, but enough is enough), get rid of The Topham & The Foxhunters (got away with it the last 2 years, but always a PR disaster waiting to happen), and alter the layout at Foinavaon, and The Canal Turn, the only point of the course where it could be argued that weight of numbers is an issue. |
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While you're at it - why not remove the hill at Epsom, straighten out Tatt.Corner and run The Derby over a mile.
Your last paragraph is a total joke. |
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Facts, no need to be so snide, the thing is, we're obviously in the same camp. It's only a suggestion, anything to save the race, if it was up to me, I wouldn't change a bloody thing.
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Cheers for them ideas facts I will bring them up at my next ban horseracing meeting.
Well done Fabulous you have put some work into that and also reminded me of a few of my favourite horses. It's really crap that we should all be celebrating agreat race won by a grey who seems to have been around for years and has competed in the top company and probably never got the recognition he deserves,unfortunately his performance is still being overshadowed. I have commented a lot on these threads and a lot of it emotionally charged through Saturdays events. What is interesting is that yesterday I started a thread saying lets look forward to a great week of racing Newmarket, Cheltenham,Newbury and Ayr. I also put that lets hope we see a new star on the flat. When I checked it had had over 90 views yet no one added anything to it. Just as facts has done to you most on here just want to criticise. |
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Steamship 16 Apr 12 19:41
Cheers for them ideas facts I will bring them up at my next ban horseracing meeting. Well done Fabulous you have put some work into that and also reminded me of a few of my favourite horses. It's really crap that we should all be celebrating agreat race won by a grey who seems to have been around for years and has competed in the top company and probably never got the recognition he deserves,unfortunately his performance is still being overshadowed. I have commented a lot on these threads and a lot of it emotionally charged through Saturdays events. What is interesting is that yesterday I started a thread saying lets look forward to a great week of racing Newmarket, Cheltenham,Newbury and Ayr. I also put that lets hope we see a new star on the flat. When I checked it had had over 90 views yet no one added anything to it. Just as facts has done to you most on here just want to criticise. I agree !! |
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Ps Facts, having read my post, can I just say that I meant level the landing side of Bechers, rather than the fence itself
 Apologies. |
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Fabulous - excellent, informative post @ 19.03 - thank you.
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Howellsy the 'choice' arguement used by the anti-brigade is quite ludicrous on the basis that choice is completely immaterial in our relationship with domesticated animals and never comes in to it.
Does the police horse/dog have a choice in being put on the front line? Does the mouse have a choice whether or not to be experimented on in the name of medical research? Do the dairy cows have a choice in being kept permanently pregnant do satisfy the demand for milk? Does the family dog have a choice in getting it's balls cut off? Does the kitten have a choice in being ripped away from it's mother and sold to a stranger who may neglect/abuse/starve it? Does the cow have a choice to be slaughtered for meat? The answer is no because our cultural and legal attitude towards animals is that they are property and their choice doesn't come in to it and this has always been the case. So to say 'yes but the horses don't have a choice and humans do is a useless and hypocritcal arguement unless you also advocate a complete rehaul of our relationship towards domesticated animals as property. (Which as I understand is almost what Animal Aid want for animals not to be used by humans for any work/leisure/research purposes. Which although they are completely barking mad at least they are consistent in their madness.) The only arguement can be based on whether or not the risk in the national is acceptable given the deaths. My fear is that many who wan't the National banned feel that the risk is also too high in all NH racing and if the National goes NH racing will follow. |
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If the powers that be accepted the choice argument for the national then the whole sport is gone as the runners in the 3.55 Beverley tomorrow haven't chosen to be there either...
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The only arguement can be based on whether or not the risk in the national is acceptable given the deaths. My fear is that many who wan't the National banned feel that the risk is also too high in all NH racing and if the National goes NH racing will follow.
Don't worry - will never happen. |
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Synchronised and According To Pete both dead after the Grand National.
Money and Grred alive and well. |
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Failed on that one then !
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Whoever made the point about the prize money is spot on.
How on earth can we have a handicap over 4 and half miles as the biggest earner,above all the Grade 1 races??. Whats next? the Cesarewitch more than the Derby?? Its a handicap ffs,and thus should be treated as such and the money drastically reduced.Maybe then we would have proper staying handicappers running in the race and the classier horses competing where they should be,after all their are enough other races for them throughout the season. Also buy reducing the temptation of connections entering the race,it would give the horses more chance of running in races more suited to them.Around this time of year we have races at the festival like the Kim Muir,we have the Irish National,the Scottish National,the midlands National and the Whitbread,so its not as if they have no other races to be trained for. Take the ridiculous prize money away and change it to what a handicap should be,may just help save the race. Maybe a reduction in the size of the field and a review of the troublesome fences as well would help. Do all that we would still have the spectacle,but it would imo be a spectacle with more suitable horses running in it,and less casualties. |
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The National now has great horses running in a lottery style race, whilst one of our greatest staying chases the old Whitbread has become for horses of a lower mark.
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Have no problem with the prize money myself. The National is the toughest race in the Calendar and should be rewarded as such imo.
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Agree it has gone too high relatively, should be a bit less than the Gold Cup which is the true blue riband event. Not a lot less, say 10-20%.
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Sint,i see what you say,but for me its a handicap,however tough it may be,and should not be anywhere near the amount won by the Gold Cup winner or Queen Mother winner,the best horses should really be earning the best prize money imo
Anyway,my point is more about resisting the temptation for the wrong horses to be entered in the race,with the current conditions of the GN putting the race in jeopardy,and trying to work out a way of keeping the race. I really dont see a problem with lower graded horses running in the race if they are suited to its conditions,ie tough staying handicappers,which is what the race is,a tough staying handicap. Its my belief that if we had say 30 of those types running in the race,we would still have a race that we enjoy,and one that would be less controversial. |
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Disagree. You can have any type of horse running - and if there are 40,30 or 20 runners, there is still the likelyhood of fallers,refusals ,brought down etc- as in any race run over fences(or hurdles come to that). And potential therefore for horses to be injured /killed. This goes on up and down the country everyday for most of the year - and accidents happen. Its the sport.
The only reason all the hysteria arises out of the Grand National is that its a 'once a year' spectacle - with the worlds press on it - and every 'loony tune idealist' just salivating at the prospect of a 'horror show' so they can have their 15 minutes of glory. Todays newspaper is tomorrows fish & chip wrapper. |
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yes i realise we will always have casualties in horse racing,and thats in every race be it a 5f sprint or a 4m chase.
The point i am making is that the way things are going we could lose the race,and all im doing is trying to find ways to prevent that. I dont expect everyone to agree with me,of course not,its just opinions i have on what can be done to safeguard the future of the race. |
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Facts - you clearly care about racing and the National so I find your attitude strange. The National is the most dangerous race on the calendar. It is also the highest profile by far. The negative PR effects of these injuries are a disaster for the sport. Sports seen to be cruel to animals have been banned by society, most recently fox hunting but there are plenty of others. Every year in which there are injuries in the National it's massive ammunition for the anti-brigade. Injuries at other tracks are just not the same because they aren't on BBC1 in prime time watched by 10 million people - rather they are seen by a handful who are probably already committed racing fans. Even the deaths at the Festival cause only a small ripple compared with those in the National. That makes those accidents sad and regrettable, but not a big threat to the sport. The National, however, has the potential to destroy jump racing if this continues.
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One thing im pretty sure of,thats we cannot afford to be blase about this and bury our heads in the sand.
And certainly those that can put pressure on the race aint going away,and the more we are seen to address concerns can only help the race and the sport in the long run. |
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^Exactly right Budd.
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I'm saying its hysteria - and will be forgotten about in a few weeks. Same as last year - and year before. If the powers that be want to pander to the loons, then they can alter a fence reduce field sizes whatever. But I believe this is an uneccessary overreaction.We shouldn't let people who's sole knowledge of horse racing is the 15 mins they see on the box once a year, dictate the future of NH racing.Wouldn't happen in any other sport.
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Facts why are those people that want racing bamnned the loons? They do ask serious questions about this race and the sport in general. The hysteria is not forgotten and that is why 5 live did a programme the day before the race. What was a great event for the BBC is something they are probably glad to get rid of. 10 million viewers this year you wont get half that now next year partly to do with the move to c4 but also to do with this. What we got out of this race was 2 horses dead 2 others injured a jockey with a broken leg. Before the race tears by connections of ATP and tears from the owner of the horse that won and him saying this decision had split his family. Makes our sport look great.
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Steamship 17 Apr 12 14:09
Facts why are those people that want racing bamnned the loons? They do ask serious questions about this race and the sport in general. The hysteria is not forgotten and that is why 5 live did a programme the day before the race. What was a great event for the BBC is something they are probably glad to get rid of. 10 million viewers this year you wont get half that now next year partly to do with the move to c4 but also to do with this. What we got out of this race was 2 horses dead 2 others injured a jockey with a broken leg. Before the race tears by connections of ATP and tears from the owner of the horse that won and him saying this decision had split his family. Makes our sport look great. That's why they broadcast it then. To sensationalise it. Why didn't they broadcast the rest of the year ? A total assumption on your behalf - no factual evidence that this will be the case The 'split' in the family was whether to retire the horse or not |
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No the split was because of the race.Did you see the interview that Hales did with Hislop?
You have not answered the question that I put to you. |
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10 million viewers this year you wont get half that now next year partly to do with the move to c4 but also to do with this.
Yes the viewing figures will be lower because of C4, but not because of this. Last year's images were far worse ( remember the airship shots with the poor horse covered by a tarpaulin )and yet record amounts were bet on the race on Saturday. Those who love the sport are feeling it more because we lost our GC winner |
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"We shouldn't let people who's sole knowledge of horse racing is the 15 mins they see on the box once a year, dictate the future of NH racing"
Ideally that's right, but it isn't how politics and government work in our society. How many people who wanted (and got) fox hunting banned had ever seen a hunt, let alone been on one? |
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Two wrongs don't make a right
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If that's the best arguement racing's got we're in trouble.
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this is the RSPCA's official blog, written by Gavin Grant their chief executive...
Trepidation turns to fury during the Grand National Posted by Gavin Grant Published on 17 April 2012 under Animal welfare, Horses. Tags: Animal Welfare, Animals, Horse, Horse racing, Horses Stable yards at week-ends have been a second home. All three of my children have ridden from early ages. Both my daughters still do. Indeed Clare competes in dressage. I watched her put her beautiful horse, My Scallywag Prince through his paces on at a wet and blowy Easter Dressage camp near Winchester on Easter Monday. Holly, my youngest at ‘sweet 17′ had decided to restart her riding and on Saturday morning she and Liz went to book their assessment sessions. Later we all sat down to watch the National together. The smell of damp horses and feel of Prince demanding his apple from me were in my mind and senses as as the build up to the Grand National started. I’d already spoken to Mike Hogg our northern regional manager and former chief inspector and had several conversations with our equine consultant David Muir at Aintree. They were part of our eight strong inspectorate team for Aintree. Six of our specialist equine inspectors were positioned at the start and around the key jumps. That team was led by chief inspector Cathy Hyde (pictured left) who competed for Britain and is now a horse judge away from her RSPCA duties. Inspector Jon Knight, a former national hunt jockey and senior stable lad had opted to cover Beches Brook. Our highly experienced and professional team were out in force to use all their knowledge and skill to do all they could to help the horses. I had written to Aintree’s organisers before the four day meeting started asking for extra safety effort to protect the horses. A death in the second race on Thursday was awful and rightly condemned by Ricky Gervais on 5 Live just as I pulled into our Eastern HQ. But no further deaths, the wet weather and new watering systems belayed my worries. It would be OK wouldn’t it? Horse deaths are not a necessary risk of horse racing The shambols at the start of the race made my heart sink. Why was Synchronised not withdrawn when he bolted? What on earth was the starter doing? Surely we could not have another disaster like last year, could we? Some changes had been made under RSPCA pressure, surely lessons had been learnt? As the 40 horses raced to the first fence the images of the cavalry charge in the film ‘Warhorse’ filled my mind. Then the first faller, and another and another. I looked desperately on the tv long shots back down the field. Had the horses got up? On the second circuit the grim images of the screens and flags diverting the field filled the tv – please, not a dead horse. Then the run in and a winning jockey striking his horse again and again and again. Surely that cannot be right? What about the new whip rules? A call to Mike told me what I had hoped not to hear. Synchronised and According to Pete destroyed, other horses badly hurt. As the winning owner whooped, a cold fury welled-up in me. My visits to our equine rescue centres at Gonsal Farm, Felledge and Lockwood. Our loving staff caring and bring back to life so many mistreated horses. These are magnificent animals, beautiful creatures. They deserve care and love; not death and destruction before 11 million tv viewers disbelieving eyes. Horse deaths are not a necessary risk. Nor are they part of the spectacle. They are unnecessary and unacceptable. Horses are living creatures not crashable machines. The National has to change or die. The nation knows and demands it. Fewer runners and riders, changes to killer fences, safer landing areas, more stewards to catch lose horses, less fallers, a sane starting system and automatic withdrawal of bolting horses. They are all commonsense reforms that keeps the skill and spectacle but safeguard the horses. Surely Aintree’s organisers can see that? I’m not resting until they do. From tv and radio studio to parliament and beyond the horses need and deserve our respect, care and help – let’s make the dead duo of the 2012 the National the last. That would make it a truly grand race. Share on facebookShare on twitterShare on emailShare on printMore Sharing Services 5 Responses to “Trepidation turns to fury during the Grand National” Giles Bradshaw 17 April 2012 ok so you disagree with a horse race because two horses die. I’ve been campaigning against a clause in the Hunting Act which requires me to shoot all the deer I flush with my dogs. I only flush them to disperse them and have never killed one. I want to manage my land without killing any mammals. When I challenged the Hunting Act because of this clause in the courts the RSPCA supported the Government in arguing it was right that the law required all those deer to be shot. Please explain – why if two horses dieing is cruel is it not cruel to gun down an entire herd of deer fleeing from hounds where there is a considerable chance of wounding and extreme suffering? You should have a consistent approach. Reply . Sharon 17 April 2012 Well said !!! 110% with you and the site has my email please feel free to contact me !! Will love to help you !! Reply . Gavin Grant 17 April 2012 Many thanks. We will be in touch. Reply . Giles Bradshaw 17 April 2012 Also to say horse deaths are not a necessary risk is nonsense. Death is a necessary risk of life. However you use and care for horses their is a risk that they will die. Most horse accidents happen on pasture. Reply . Gavin Grant 17 April 2012 Hello Giles, As you say life’s a risky business. That is why we all take sensible actions to mitigate risk in our lives and around those we care about . Sensible actions to substantially reduce the risk to the horses running the Grand National will be recommended by us to Aintree and the British Horseracing Association. Our proposals will be based in science and informed by the practical knowledge of experienced Officers with extensive horse knowledge who witnessed Saturday’s events at first hand People who care about animals will support those changes. Those who put “spectacle” before horse safety probably will not. Reply |