Ireland's shambollic record in Gold Cup

There has been plenty of top class horses, but injuries have played a key role.
Rule supreme, nick dundee, kicking king, war of attrition, danoli, and imperial call had their careers badly affected by injuries.

irish breeds have done well..best mate,denman...french ones doing well..kauto,long run
hows the british breed ones doing firebet?

Very true, jungleboogie.

Let's crystalise the question then - why are Irish-based trainers unable to get their staying chasers to the Gold Cup in shape?  And why are Irish-based owners unable to spot them in the sales ring?

It is a slight puzzle because Irish based horses done pretty well in the staying novice division over the same period. The injuries are probably just bad luck.

More systematically, I'd suggest the following - (i) Running most of the races on bad ground in the Irish winter is poor prepration for the CGC. (ii) Small fields in virtually all the top Irish races also provide poor prepration, as does the fact they tend to be falsely run races. (iii) Perhaps, running on dreadful ground takes more out of Irish novices than British ones who generally run on better ground, leaving the British novices in better shape for their senior racing.

It's also worth pointing out that in this period Paul Nicholls has won the race 4 times with 3 horses - maybe he's just a far better trainer of staying chasers than anybody else? Also in that time Best Mate won three times. Outside those two freak occurrences, Ireland has won 2 out of 5.

Smething to add is that the British have been blessed with a number of outstandingly good staying chaser recently. Kauto Star, Denman, Imperial Commander, Best Mate and Long Run are probably all well above the long term average for Gold Cup winners. That's probably just coincidence (e.g. Clive Smith wanted Garde Champetre initially but got Kauto Star as a consolation prize).

as Vinnie Roe pointed out, Imperial Call and Kicking King at least, maybe not so much War Of Attrition, were decent Gold Cup winners, but injury meant they couldn't perform to the same level again.
Just shows how Paul Nicholls and Hen Knight should be admired for having got the best out of Kauto, Denman (despite heart problems straight after his Gold Cup win) and Best Mate, and keeping them on the go for so long.
Anyone who thinks these Grade 1 staying chasers can withstand 5-6 races a season and criticise the trainer for not running very often only need to look at the record book and see how hard it is to keep these horses sound at the highest level

Nick dundee is the best novice I have seen in the last 20 yrs. It was a terrible shame when he  damaged his fetlock joint at cheltenham, when cruising all over looks like trouble, and it practically finished his career.

There certainly is a problem regarding 3 Mile Chasers in Ireland but finding Gold Cup horses is not a simple job its a 3-5year project. I believe next year Ireland will go on a sustained period of dominating the 3 Mile Division. The raw good are there the trainers are there just a bit of luck is what is needed.

These things come in cycles.

My big hope was Weapons Amnesty ...unfortunately injuries again

Racing frequently in heavy ground must take it's toll

Racing without EPO may have something to do with the decline of Irish staying chasers allegedly.

"why are Irish-based trainers unable to get their staying chasers to the Gold Cup in shape?  And why are Irish-based owners unable to spot them in the sales ring? "

you mean the ones that arent already sold to te UK?
oh,their well able to spot them.just dont have the money Stewart,Wylie,Barber etc.. has.

when will the British start breeding their own gold cup winners on a regular basis?

"just dont have the money"

Ryanair
McManus
Ricci
Lambe
Potts

Have another go.......

u forgot to answer

when will the British start breeding their own gold cup winners on a regular basis?

good lad,take ur time headmaster ;)

ricci is not irish,dr lamble mostly flat.ryanair already have gold cup winner in bag

This thread is about finding out why Ireland has such a recently SHAMBOLIC record in the Gold Cup, 'jungleboogie'.  The record worsens when you consider what wonderful staying chasers the country is capable of producing, so your attemptes to dig it out of a hole actual have the reverse effect.

Now, do you have anything of substance to add?  Because juvenile sideswipes at the (non-Government funded) British breeding industry probably would do better on 'Bloodstock and Breeding', old chap.

Bit chippy, aren't we?

thats my boy,blame the old government.
if Irelands record is shambolic,what does that make the GB breed's record?I think we both know the answer

1995     Master Oats    
1996     Imperial Call IRE   
1997     Mr Mulligan IRE   
1998     Cool Dawn IRE   
1999     See More Business IRE   
2000     Looks Like Trouble IRE               
2002     Best Mate IRE   
2003     Best Mate IRE   
2004     Best Mate IRE   
2005     Kicking King IRE        
2006     War Of Attrition IRE   
2007     Kauto Star        
2008     Denman     IRE   
2009     Kauto Star    
2010     Imperial Commander IRE
2011     Long Run

anyways,u can reply to thread when the british breed are winning gold cups left right & centre

PS,u should check out our shambolic record in the champion hurdle while ur at it, old chum ;)

Crikey, chippy it is (Nap).  You're the only one talking about breeding me old china - and a fine pool of future talent it is too, although not sure what your repetitive point is doing to help you.  As I said, it does more to hammer the OP's point home than anything.


Anyways, when you've stopped looking at everything through the green-tinted glasses (if that's possible), anything related to why Ireland has such a stinking recent record in the Gold Cup (and, by definition, the whole staying chasing scene) would be appreciated.  We know Irishmen can breed them, we know Irishmen can train them (when they're based in good ol' Blighty), we know Irishmen can own them (contrary to your belief, they do still have a couple of Euro to wave around)....so why can't Irishmen training in Ireland train them at the moment?

....oh, and we know Ireland has a cracking recent record in the Champion Hurdle too....

(You're not Alan Sweetman btw, are you?)

Its a combination of Things Owners, the economy in Ireland selling all the best stock for top price when they could get it to England, Big Owners spending more money on Flat, lack of money in jumps, poor training, poor horses, injuries, heavy ground etc

ah,dear old chum,
the penny hasnt dropped with you.

Q. why isn't the best manager (alex ferguson) training the best footballer in the world(messi)?
I'll spell it out to you, very slowly , real slowly, are u with me? did I lose you? pay attention now headmaster
A.he plays for another team.

now,the question you want answered is,how can Irish trainers not train gold cup winners when their in other stables?
oh dearie..
anyways,I'll explain,

Irish owners(myself included) tend not to stray when buying horses.we always hope to buy a rough diamond
The P2P is so strong,theirs no need to hop on a plane & head over to France to buy a £500k(kauto star/long run),Rubi Light owner being the odd exception,although he was spotted by pa.carberry.
Only o'leary & JP can really afford to do that.

So,the UK owners wit v.deep pockets(stewart,smith,waley-cohen,buckley)all about similar aged men,want instant success,and they pay for it i.e the polished diamonds
500k wud buy alot of unbroken store horses,and u'd hope to have a gold cup winner in that bunch
swings & roundabouts old chum,
if magnier was to buy only NH horses,u can rest assured he'd have bought long run/kauto etc..

4m people in ireland v 55m in UK,thats a hell of alot of owners with more buying power.

messi is for sale tomorrow/?who buys him?probably man city..money talks!
its the same with horses.

just to remind u old chum, we trained 13 winners at last years festival
case closed

My big hope was Weapons Amnesty ...unfortunately injuries again

jungleboogie, I'll keep checking this thread and when you get close to answering the OP's original question I'll re-engage.  Till then - make mine a Guiness (good old English firm, btw....always wondered how that goes down in backwoods of the Emerald Isle?)

haha headmaster
whats that expression...an empty vessel makes most noise