MOST OVERATED HORSES EVER

lets here of other horses from people its all opinions after all, lets not debate best mate

sorry lets HEAR

Sorry Manuel but i find threads like this ridiculous we all have opinions on who was the best but when you say overrated what do you mean  a gold cup is the supreme test of a horse and whilst i agree kauto star is  more of a nations favourite and a wonderful horse who i believe would have beat  best mate at kempton i wouldnt have been so sure about cheltenham both great horses in their own right sorry you feel best mate was overrated

Long Run and Imperial Commander are overrated imo

Overrated  3 gold cups. What a statement

I have not posted on the issue of best mate before but he is easily the most overrated
chaser in my 35 year love affair with national hunt racing

one of his gold cups he beat commanche court by less than 2 lenghts - that horse won  only 3 out of its 20 chases and all three were handicaps

another of the gold cups he was battered to beat sir rembrandt and harbour pilot by less than 2 lenghts - both of them were carthorses

the comparison to arkle and kauto star is a joke , never mind carberry nearly falling off
while waving back to BM the day beef salmon hammered him at leopardstown

Best mate was the best jumper of a fence i have seen could have been a showjumper.

there was not may great horses in his career not his fault.

his 2nd gold cup was something to behold.

id have him behind kauto and denman but not too far.

Menorah has been over rated ever since his Supreme Novices win - the form is proven to be well shy of Championship standard yet he has been sent off at short prices (even made favorite in the Bula trying to gice weight to Grandouet) in races he had no chance in.

Probably should have gone chasing straight after his novice hurdle season

I've always thought Binocular a bit overated,myself.

Punjabi

Danoli was the subject of some crazy hype in Ireland. Hawk Wing was a very moderate miler apart from one freak race at Newbury. Equally moderate as a sire.

frankel

Goldikova imo.

Don't want to get into argument or debate, but before I opened this thread I thought...."this looks interesting and a decent idea by the poster. I quite like picking through people's suggestions and remembering some ultimate hype horses that never really delivered on their promise". Then I thought but please don't let me read nonsense like "Best Mate, Kauto Star, Red Rum etc"

Then when I open it the first horse mentioned is Best Mate....give me strength. He may not be everyone's idea of the greatest horse of all time but he won 3 Gold Cups and countless other races. He certainly doesn't deserve any mention on this thread.

I was expecting to read things like "Sweet Wake, Cousin Vinny, Ouninpohja, Free World etc"

Best Mate was ok , beat good handicappers for 2 of 3 gold cups ,only won one king george
does he deserve a massive statue at cheltenham with his own named enclosure - not in my  opinion

Since COMMANCHE COURT was mentioned I think there should be an
over rated jockey and I would nominate WALSH'S ride on Commanche,
after hunting him round on the first cicuit, he came swinging along with 5 fences to go, but decided to lob alongside BEST MATE and others, instead of going on, this for 3 fences then he gives the office and Commanche hits the top of the second from home and being 1 length up going into the fence comes out 1 and 3/4 lengths behind, which is maintained to the line, Ted Walsh is reported as saying that was probably his ONLY chance of winning a GOLD CUP.

Sea The Stars totally overated imo!

Best Mate only ran in 2 King Georges both times ridden by McCoy and first time they were not sure about his stamina. Please tell me about the great horses that Kauto Star and Denman have beaten and you will start to find holes in them. Best Mate had an injury the day he was beaten in Ireland by Beef or Salmon. Snoopy Loopy won a race that Kauto Star was in. Madison Du Berlais beat Denman. Little Josh beat Long Run.

I think Best Mate is a fair call because the public at large really took to the horse and he was lauded to high heaven when in reality he was no better than a good gold cup winner who happened to benefit massively from the trend towards altering the going by putting in massive amounts of drainage but before the advent of watering to ensure decent ground. I doubt he would have won one gold cup in the days of proper national hunt ground. Which isn't the horses fault and getting the horse to three gold cups to run as well as he did was a feat in itself.

I really can't agree with the last posting. Best Mate was a very good horse who won 3 Gold Cups against different opposition. The race that bottomed him in my opinion was his win in the King George on desperate ground. He was never quite as good after that. The over rated ones are those that have a reputation based on just one race which could easily have been a fluke.

Yes agree. And I was joking re Goldikova.

Ovverated horses are like you say one that get lauded before evening winning major races. Horses like Muirhead.And hows about Dunguib.

May as well row in and say I agree about Best Mate being over-rated simply because beating Commanche Court, Truckers Tavern and Sir Rembrandt does not constitute greatness for me. A very good horse who might have been great given better class opposition to race against.

Dawn Run has her place in history but most judges will agree she was lucky to face a piss-poor field in the Champion Hurdle and without the allowance would have been unlikely to beat Wayward Lad et al (a far stronger field though that Best Mate ever faced in his 3 wins). She rarely gets considered a great for these reasons yet Best Mate somehow escapes such "reservations".

Moscow Flyer was a truly great horse IMO as he regularly faced and usually beat some true top-notchers.

As always it's all about opinions. This is a forum after all.

Dark D - I think people are wrong to knock horses (like Dawn Run) for receiving a weight allowance (and I realise you aren't). They receive the allowance for a very good reason. And whatever people think of Dawn Run, hers is a unique achivement (and who knows how good she could have gone on to be?).

Over-rated by whom?
I don't remember the official handicapper going crazy over Best Mate, I don't think he got a mark over 180, so in comparison to some recent winners, then not over-rated. I doubt any of the above mentioned more recent winners could give him the weight difference of their highest marks in comparison to his around Prestbury Park. If you're talking about public affection, then that's a different thing altogether. The public take to horses for different reasons and being a multiple winner of the high profile CGC and being trained by the somewhat eccentric Knight, BM was always likely to enjoy some public acclaim.
I don't care what he beat, dour staying on rags appear in the places of virtually every Gold Cup and a few have won them. However, the CGC is recognised as the supreme test of equine athletic ability over a staying trip and he won three of them. That's good enough for me.

pretty much every horse that is trained at Ballydoyle

Greatness is not just measured by who beats who or ratings imo. It's as much about durability,resilience,mental fortitude and anything other big word you can think of! imo

Moscow Flyer was a true great. Was a sad day when he regressed a little and started to lose over fences. I really thought he was a super horse who wouldn't ever lose (When completing). Sintonian not many flat horses could be considered durable since they mostly retire after one or two years :-)

sageform

I didn't say Best Mate wasn't a very good horse. He was and I said he was a good standard gold cup winner. I stand by my comment about him being lucky to benefit from the changes to the course made by the clerk but surely the fact that he has a statue given the number of outstanding horses which have graced Cheltenham is evidence enough of his being overated. I agree with the official handicapper. A very good horse indeed.

Prem

steinbeck

'birds singing from trees' etc...

I don't care what he beat, dour staying on rags appear in the places of virtually every Gold Cup and a few have won them.

Thats a good point Desmond .

Galileo was a well above average Derby Winner, maybe have him in the top 20%, not aware people thought him much better than that .Sakhee was a better horse that year certainly.

Most overated on the flat without a doubt MarkOfEsteem, who Timeform have as one of the top 4 milers of the last 50 years (behind only Brigadier Gerard,Frankel and Dubai Millenium)  , i wouldn't have him in the Top 20 tbh

Won a poor Guineas in a photo, tailed off at Royal Ascot, won a Group 2 then beat Bosra Sham (as most Group 1 colts of the day managed) then tailed off again in The Breeder's Cup, and for that is rated equal to Montjeu,Dayjur,Easy Goer and Peintre Celebre , superior to El Gran Senor, Nashwan and Mtoto and 1 lb inferior to Njinsky

goldikova or canford cliffs

Pretty much any current National Hunt horse. The band of Official Ratings is at least 10lb too high.

I was a huge fan of Best Mate and the way he was campaigned. He certainly is not the best CGC winner ever but his acheievements were magnificent, likewise his handler, and he was pure class in his 2nd CGC. Knocking him is perverse IMO. Yes, he was not Arkle, but he was very, very good. That 2nd win reminded me of Kauto's 2nd win - conditions and race run to suit, oozed class.  Kauto's first win was a farce of a race, and the form of his 2nd was iffy, Denman being 'wrong' before the race. I am not saying Kauto is overrated btw! BM's 3rd win was remarkable given how he hated the ground, given he was probably slightly past his best, and given he was chocked off against horses who loved conditions.

I agree that greatness is not demonstrated by 1 performance but the exception to the rule is Carvills Hill IMO - I have never seen anything like his Welsh National win and do not think I ever will. Talk abotu Denman in the Hennessy (imperious, one the best performances I have seen), but for me the most awesome, powerful steeple chase effort I have ever seen was Carvills - that would be in my top couple of all time performances (along with Dessie at Kempton, in Ireland or at Ascot).

Why are people so stupid regarding the word overrated. Denman was a great horse, but calling him the best chaser of all time is overrating him. Overrated does not mean bad. Nobody is calling Best Mate a poor horse, but he probably isnt in the 10 best chasers of all time, yet many rate him as such..hence overrated. Still great, but overrated

I agree Shaund, still great but overrated - however, some posters (none above) use overrated as a euphemism for 'not very good' or 'badly overrated'.

Under rated because of Arkle was probably the amazing Flyingbolt.

Most over rated horse was, on the track, Galileo; although his record at stud (a bit like Saddlers Wells) is fabulous. I still groan when I recall the entry for Galileo in the July Cup - a silly attempt to deceive people by pretending Galileo was not full of stamina. I dislike the bit about making out really top class stayers like Galileo are something other than that which they really are, not just because it is a bit disingenuous, but because it panders to the continued long terms fashion against stallions imparting stamina.

These fashions are a self perpetuating and damaging trend.

Great horses, like Yeats, Le Moss, Kayf Tara, Ardross, Sagaro, and to come in time Fame And Glory, get no really top class mares because breeders want to breed all the time for speed. Mt view is that had any of the above had the sorts of mares that Dea The Stars, Galileo, Dansili, Dubawi, Montjeu etc are now getting, they would have bred some utterly brilliant horses; instead they get selling hurdlers and bumper hoses to poke and all they end up breeding is staying chasers - a damned shame.

In terms of column inches written to achievements - Killer Instinct

Also, if Timeform could go back and rethink history I'm pretty sure they would start with the rating they gave Arkle.

Roger - Timeform never miss an opportunity to defend that rating!

Great post Cryoftruth

rogerthebutler (unpleasant image)

I will rise to the bait.

Arkle was amazing.

Can you imagine this?

After 2 Cheltenham Gold Cup wins, Arkle was so lumbered with weight he looked to have it all to do with his high rating when going for his second Hennessy. The Hennessy then, as now, was inevitably won by an improver. Having already won 2 Gold Cups it seemed less than likely that Arkle could still be improving, but he was, and how!

However for his second Hennessy win he warmed up by smashing the Sandown course record by 17 seconds (record still stands about half a century later). He ran at Sandown with the same rating he was due to run off at Newbury so the ante post YES ANTE POST betting for the Hennessy was duly adjusted to be:
1/5 On Arkle.

Of course he trotted up again with 12 stones 7 lbs.

its quite unimaginable stuff, but its true its fact. I personally cannot remember any handicap chase ever with an ante post market starting with 1/5 on favourite some weeks before the race. But that was Arkle - unique.

I don't know how you begin to rate a horse that was the utter phenomenon that was Arkle. 212 may be a bit high but the recording of his Gallaher Gold Cup win they showed a while ago on channel 4 was a real eye opener. Watching Arkle take the last 2 fences in the straight, coming further and further clear with all that weight, quickening all the time like a flat horse is just unbelievable. Just because it happened a long time ago does not mean it wasn't real - hard though the record books seem to accept, its a fact, he was just a freak of nature. His jumping at Sandown in particular is incredible, fast economical, quick away from his fences.

I have followed racing for a long time and with the exception of a couple of efforts by Flyingbolt, the actual form displayed by Arkle is quite a bit better than anything we have seen since, great horses though Desert Orchid and Kauto Star have undoubtedly been.

COT - you said above that flyingbolt is underrated. Why so and by how much iyo?

Over rated!!!! SNAAFI and STAR OF INDIA.

I just think that when people mention the greatest ever chasers Flyingbolt is not usually mentioned - perhaps because its a long time ago and because he was not around for very long when he was in training, with a couple of seasons at his fantastic prime.

He was also a bit of a phenomenon - fro memory doing something astonishing like winning a champion chase on a Tuesday before going close in a champion hurdle about 24 hours later.

He also won that 20 furlong chase (used tio be called the Massey Ferguson Gold cup) by miles carrying an amazing burden.

He was a bit like Arkle - an utter freak but unlike Arkle he is rarely mentioned.

Of course Timeform didn't and generally don't under or over rate horses, they just do sums for pounds per length and to them its like a Maths exercise. I think they had Flyingbolt a few pounds behind Arkle, and rate him the second best ever chaser.

The excellent article about him is taken from Wikipaedia, and is a nice read for those who like a sense of hiastory in racing - he was quite an animal, deserving of more attention than he gets.

Officially he is the second best National Hunt racehorse of all time, after Arkle, but not nearly as well known as his rival. Flyingbolt's racing career was dogged by illness and injury. It is very difficult to rate horses who never actually raced against each other but a comparison of their merits is probably best illustrated by the Official Handicapper who at one stage in 1966, when both were at the height of their powers, rated Arkle the superior by only 1 lb (0.5 kg).[clarification needed] Timeform, the highly respected racing publication had a difference of 2 lbs between them. The two never raced together because both were trained by the same man, Tom Dreaper.
[edit]
After his customary summer break, Flyingbolt was sent chasing in the autumn of 1964. He won all 5 of his starts including the 2-mile Champion Novice Chase at Cheltenham (known then as the Cotswold Chase) and his final start at Fairyhouse where he carried 12 st 2 lb to victory giving the second horse 37 lb. His superiority was such that he started at odds-on in all of his races that season.
He made his seasonal re-appearance in a handicap hurdle at the Phoenix Park on the 2nd October 1965 where he finished 4th when trying to concede 28 lbs and upwards to his rivals. Although beaten for the first time in more than two years, it was really only a warm-up race prior to the resumption of his chasing career, a sphere in which he still remained unbeaten. Flyingbolt proved to be a sensation during this season, winning all 6 of his chases with consummate ease ranging in distance from 2 miles to 3 and a quarter miles. He began with a victory in the Carey's Cottage Handicap Chase at Gowran Park, winning by 5 lengths carrying 12th-2 lbs and giving 32 lbs to the second horse. This was followed by a trip to Ascot in November where he won the prestigious Black & White Gold Cup in a canter by 15 lengths. For the first time in 8 starts over fences he started at odds-against for the Massey Ferguson Gold Cup at Cheltenham in December. The reason for what appeared to be a generous price was because he had been allotted 12th-6 lbs in the race and had to give 25 lbs and more in weight to his 10 rivals, a task which many thought might prove to be beyond him. However those who backed him in from 5/1 to 5/2 favourite knew what he was capable of and he did not let them down. In one of the finest performances of his career, he took the lead with 3 to jump and galloped his rivals into the ground, drawing right away to win by 15 lengths in very testing conditions. Pat Taaffe described the race in his autobiography 'My Life and Arkle's:
"The ground at Cheltenham had been very heavy when we arrived, but by the time of the race unceasing rain had turned it into a sea of mud. For Flyingbolt, with twelve-stone-six to carry, you just couldn't imagine anything worse........I had Flyingbolt settled down nicely in the middle of the field, relaxed, jumping superbly and biding his time........ Then, as planned, I made my first move going up the hill at the far end of the course and Flyingbolt, unleashed and free, began to fly through the field........ At the top of the hill only Solbina and Scottish Memories were still in front. Flyingbolt went past and away from them, a man running against boys. Rounding the final bend, he was going so easily that he found time to jump a path across the course. He stormed up the hill, increasing the distance between him and his pursuers with every stride, to win by fifteen lengths from Solbina with Scottish Memories third. It was the manner of his victory, rather than the victory itself, that caused the furore. Men remembered that Scottish Memories had met Arkle twice in the previous season and stretched him on both occasions. In this selfsame race, the Massey-Ferguson, there had been thirty-three pounds and two lengths between them. And in the Leopardstown Chase, thirty-five pounds and one length. Now Flyingbolt had given him twenty-six pounds and left him sixteen and a half lengths behind. Didn't this prove that Flyingbolt was now every bit as good as his more illustrious stable-mate?"
His next start was back at home in the Thyestes Handicap Chase at Gowran Park where he carried the now customary top weight and beat Height O'Fashion by a distance (in excess of 30 lengths) giving her 28 lbs with Flying Wild (who received 29 lbs) another 25 lengths back in third. Yet another astonishing performance. Indeed Arkle had failed by a length to give 32 lbs to Flying Wild in the previous season's Massey-Ferguson Gold Cup.
His next port of call was the Cheltenham Festival for the 2-mile Champion Chase. He started at odds of 1-5, the shortest price in the history of the race and he won pulling up by 15 lengths. The comment beside his name in the Form Book afterwards said it all - "took lead 2 out, canter". This effort led many to regret that he wasn't given the chance to take on Arkle in the Gold Cup. Unfortunately, because both were trained by the same man, this was always unlikely to happen. However, 24 hours after the Champion Chase, Flyingbolt re-appeared in the Champion Hurdle where despite taking on the specialist 2-mile hurdlers he started a short priced favourite. Although beaten by just over 3 lengths, Pat Taaffe was widely criticised for going round the outside and perhaps not letting this proven stayer set a clear lead earlier. As it was, Flyingbolt got too close to the fourth last and lost valuable ground which may well have cost him the race. It is also possible that Taaffe was mindful of the fact that he had just raced the previous day and instead of kicking on down the hill in order to make full use of his stamina, he waited till the straight which allowed his 'quicker' rivals to conserve their energy and he was just caught for 'toe' after the last. Indeed, it was one of the very rare occasions that Tom Dreaper ever expressed his dissatisfaction to Pat for the ride he gave to one of his horses. However, Flyingbolt ended his season on a high note when carrying the welter burden of 12th-7 lbs in the Irish Grand National over three-and-a-quarter miles at Fairyhouse beating Height O'Fashion (by 2 lengths) and the previous year's winner Splash, giving them 40 lbs and 42 lbs respectively. When Arkle (carrying 12-0) won the same race 2 years previously he beat Height O'Fashion by a length-and-a-quarter giving her 30 lbs, 10 lbs less than what Flyingbolt had conceded. Indeed Flyingbolt is the only Irish National winner since 1946 to have carried 12-7 to victory in this race and it is a feat that is most unlikely to be repeated. Pat Taaffe later reflected on the race in his aforementioned book when he said:
"Flyingbolt won the 1966 Irish National very easily from Arkle's old rival Height O'Fashion. He settled down beautifully and I was surprised how well he stayed. If top weight worried him, it never showed. He made winning look an easy thing that day. Once again I was reminded that I was alternating between the king and crown prince of chasing. More than ever, it now seemed only a matter of time before he took over from Arkle."
It was yet another remarkable effort and he was now unbeaten in 11 starts over fences. In all, he had won 17 of his 20 races including 3 wins in 3 different races at the Cheltenham Festival, a feat that has yet to be equalled.
[edit]

Thanks COT. You're right - Timeforem rated Arkle 212 and Flyingbolt 210. You're also right Flyingbolt is often forgotten. I just read your comment to mean you thought Flyingbolt might be better than Arkle!

Thanks COT Brilliant read. I was aware of Flyingbolt but did not know fully of his fantastic achievements What a race that would have been if they had gone head to head!

Cry, memory fading sometimes, but I seem to remember backing
FLYINGBOLT and KERRIEMUIR in a double and Flyingbolt was 4/9, would that have been the Cotswold 'Chase, the forerunner of the Arkle, if so it was 1965 Cheltenham Festival?

bazaar

you are older than me. My memory of that era was watching Arkle take on Mill house in the first Gold Cup with Peter O saying "and this is it now this is the big two...and it's Mill House for England and Arkle for Ireland.... and it's Arkle's if he jumps the last...this is the best we have seen for long time"  still give me goose pimples now. i was at home with flu watching the old black and white telly in front of the coal fire.

Funny some people remember what they were doing when Kennedy got shot. I don't, I remember Arkle at aged about 8 years. Seems like I had my priorities right even back then!

bazaar, do you think Arkle is over rated by the 212 yourself. My own view is that, having seen the replay of the Gallagher gold cup, that he was as near to being an unbeatable horse as anything I have ever seen. If Arkle met say Kauto Star at Sandown over 3 miles, I suspect Arkle would go very close to winning, even at a weight difference of 19 lbs.
Remember that the 212 is the top rating Arkle will ever have done. As I say I am not sure anything that has ever run handicapped within 2 stones of Arkle would have beaten him that day at Sandown.

my first serious win on the horses was when I backed Red Rum for the first of his grand national wins. The third time he won I won quite big too - i had him with an unraced 3yo of **** hern's in an 80/1 double. After that there was no looking back!

Great stories cryoftruth, please tell us more. My first memory of the horses is Rag Trade winning the National I was 7 my mum put a bet on for me I picked it because of the comedy programme of the same name.

One stands out for me....

Talking Horse that could'nt walk let alone gallop....

BEEF OR SALMON.....Dog of a Horse vastly over-rated!

I wish I owned a dog that won TEN Grade I steeplechases and beat THREE Cheltenham Gold Cup winners...

WW - I think Beef Or Salmon was far from over-rated and IMV often looked upon as a soft touch!

The horses plainly never ran up to form in his UK ventures and that was a great pity, as he definitely could have served it up to the best.

Who knows? He may have been sea-sick every time...

Most overated horses are last years novices by the handicapper. Barring 1 or 2, should drop the rest a good few pounds.

Chasers, I am referring too.

Gents don't be fooled by cryoftruth - the first time he backed a National winner was Lovely Cottage in the first race run after the War!!

One I remember from a few years back was Cork All Star. Scooshed up in the Festival bumper and was hyped to the high heavens subsequently.
He only won one race after that in ten tries under rules, a maiden hurdle first time out the following Season.

Now 10 years old, he was running in Hunter Chases last Season. Not sure if he is still in training or not?

Come to think of it, you can probably add every recent Festival Bumper winner to the list.

Steamship

The year Rag Trade won I had an each way bet on Red Rum. That year the owner had jocked off Brian Fletcher for being too soft on Red Rum in his trial (ie didn't whip him). brain was riding Eyecatcher in the race but from about 2 out was screaming at Tommy stack, Red rum's jockey, to press on and use his stamina, fearing that his old friend would get done for toe by rag Trade if he left his final effort too late. he was right of course. If fletcher had ridden Red Rum that year he would have possibly won 4 nationals rather than just the three.

I watched on ESP classic Red Rum's 3 National wins the other month. The second win was probably the most amazing. Put up to 12 stones he was thought by most pundits to have zero chance. What did they know. he didn't just win that year he killed the whole lot of them and won by a mile - amazing.

in his 5 nationals he made 1 slight mistake that i can remember. not a big horse either by any means, just jumped like a cat, very clever and very sure footed. Red Rum also won a Scottish National with top weight too. he was a pretty good horse as well as just a fabulous national horse.

not sure he would do so well nowadays as the fences are less of a factor. Good thing though really. The old Beecher's Brook with its horrendous drop killed too many decent horses. Alverton and Dark Ivy to name but two really beautiful animals.

You can't blame really Dark Ivy's death on Beecher's Brook!  The horse just in front to his left jumped right and the horse to his right jumped left, he had nowhere to go and hit the fence so hard he somersaulted landing on his back the other side.  Remember seeing a similar incident in a handicap hurdle at Catterick.  Same result...

Did lol at the comment about Beef or Salmon hammering Best Mate in the Lexus (in v soft ground), fails to mention the numerous times Best Mate hammered BoS so far the jock couldn't turn around and wave because BoS was out of sight or PU.

Class horse, not even a debate.

I also seem to remember Best Mate returned that day from Ireland a sick horse. Beef was very good but their records when it mattered speak for themselves IMO.

Alverton + Dark Ivy, sad memories.

Remember crying when Alverton died, if I remember right the changes to Beechers were made after the 89 race where 2 Brown Trix fell in the brook and Julian Wilsons commentary said "they have to avoid a dead horse". This was also the time when the jkockey rules were changed.

Back on topic Hawkwing

Remember that commentary Steamship - at the end of grandstand, they muted it out. On the replay in the evening they had re-recorded it.

Did remember being shattered too at Dark Ivys death. Saw the race recently and its a horrific sight. Hated Attitude Adjuster after that.

Me back on topic, Fundamentalist was going to win the boat race amongst other targets in his prime lol!

Steamship

I cried to. I got 25/1 about Alverton before he won the Gold cup. he was carrying 10stone 13 or something at Aintree, as champion and Gold Cup winner - a certainty for Aintree barring a fall.

Jonjo said that at Aintree he just seemed to not see Beechers Brook at all, just ploughed at speed into the bottom of it and broke his neck on landing. Bloody tragedy; the gamest horse to jump a fence I ever saw. When he won the Gold Cup he beat Tied Cottage (who won next year's race) in going that was on the harsh side of merciless. He was a good flat horse too Alverton; not so many have ver amassed a record like his or will again.

http://community.tvg.com/t5/History-and-Photos/1979-CHELTENHAM-GOLD-CUP-WINNER-ALVERTON/td-p/240607

Jonjo said he was the best horse he ever rode.

Saying Beef or Salmon was a dog is silly, he clearly didn't like Cheltenham and probably remembered the crashing fall he took as a novice the first time he raced there. He won 10 grade 1s in Ireland. He wasn't lauded so can't be overrated. Best Mate turly is, yeah he won 3 Gold Cups but was more the benefit of an astonishingly weak staying chase division, with the added benefit of the only real rival, Beef or Salmon not acting at Cheltenham. Best Mate was beaten fair and square in an Irish Hennessy by that horse.

Master Minded is the most overrated horse imv, since that first champ chase win at the age of 5 he was built up as a superstar, especially given his trainer/owner combo. His 2nd season he beat dogs like Petit Robben in Grade 1's and a washed up old Well Chief and benefited from Big Zeb falling in the Champion Chase. That horse was about to tonk him at Punchestown a month later only for the final fence to save him. Two subsequent Champ Chases showed how far behind that horse over 2m he really was, being hammered out of sight in 2010 when he was a 7yo and should be in his prime. Then hammered again last year by Zeb and others.

Those two were horses who benefited from weak divisions, something Moscow Flyer and Kauto Star have not had the benefit of. Racing horses like Azertioup, Well Chief, Denman, Imperial Commander and Long Run.

Desert Orchid.

A white horse; a blonde footballer: they stand out if they do anything.

Desert Orchid of course over rated , winning a Irish Grand National, Whitbread Gold Cup,Victor Chandler all off top weight. Also a Cheltenham Gold Cup and King George Chases nothing better than a seller.

Kincsem. OK 54/54, but what did she beat? A load of Central European yaks, that's what!

CVB - some really good points in your post and I agree entirely with all of them!

I'm not one for hype but I have to admit that Master Minded's first Champion Chase was as jaw-dropping as anything I've seen in over 30 years!

For once, there was a horse who deserved the hype...he was after all a 5yo winning an all-aged Championship chase at the Festival which is something I didn't think was possible!

Furthermore, in doing so, he absolutely hammered the Champion Chaser (albeit a well below average one) by 20 lengths!

The usual bullsh*t hype when a horse's reputation is built on the guff the trainers tell us, and the media blow all out of proportion, are the ones that really get on my tits, and even though Master Minded disappointingly hasn't achieved as much as many of us thought, he fully earned all the accolades.

PS - to add to the Best Mate assassination attempts, it's often regarded as an easy era when he won his three Gold Cups, but that's far from the truth.

There were some exceptional chasers around the turn of the millennium (better than most other periods) and besides Beef Or Salmon, there was plenty of strength in depth with such quality chasers as Florida Pearl, First Gold, See More Business, Jair Du Cochet & Looks Like Trouble.

He was fortunate to avoid them ALL at the peak of their powers for various reasons, and I have little doubt that the performance of Doumen's First Gold in his King George win would have sorted out Knight's pride & joy - alas, it was never really replicated.

What's not in question is the paucity of 'on fire' opposition he faced in his Cheltenham victories, and the difficulty he had in despatching those moderate ones in two of his three Cheltenham wins - for that reason, he'll never be a 'Great' as far as I'm concerned,though his 'immortality' in chasing history is assured.

OVERDOSE!

keep hearing about the bleedin void race! until his races in the uk he beat absolutely nothing and was then soundly beaten once he raced against decent horses! decent horse, yes, but very very average!!

Sprinter Sacre

Ooh a brave selection.

You could be right - hope you are to be honest financially at least.

Burrough Hill Lad - clearly a top class chaser but not the all-time great many claim.

Killer Instinct.....what a disapointment, came in for a Pasternak type gamble as being stones in at the weights for the John Smiths (i think!) and stuffed.

danoli forest tiger ravens pass wayward lad

HJ - are you serious squire?

Gibberish ... you dont seem very familiar with the background behind Best Mate's first Gold Cup win, let me enlighten you.

Connections were not sure he would get the easy 3 miles of the King George a couple of months earlier and Biddlecombe asked McCoy to ride Best Mate to just get the trip in that King George. As a result AP admitted later this type of ride cost Matey the race against Florida Pearl, but only at a later date after it was confirmed he actually stayed.

As is obvious from this, they still didnt know whether he would get the much stiffer 3m 2f of the Gold Cup so he was ridden to come late in the race. He won comfortably coming through with perfect timing by Jim Culloty. This was therefore never going to be a 10 length victory in the race.

The following year when they knew for definite he stayed, he was ridden like a stayer in both the King George, putting right the ride the year before and won. He also turned on one of the most impressive Gold Cup victories ever cruising and kicking clear from a long way out.

His third was a gutsy win when he was past his best and on ground he hated. Lets not just quote Sir Rembrandt being close, after all that is like saying Kauto Star lost to doubtful stayer Our Vic over a staying trip so that was as good as he was, or indeed Turnip Green's proximity to Kauto in a Gold Cup was as good as Kauto was. People dont say this because it makes them look stupid. There is ALWAYS a case you can pick using the proximity of inferior animals, on a going day for them, to denegrade a horse whether it be Best Mate, Kauto Star or any other great horse. The sensible thing to do is not do that.

He had also given up a King George win to stablemate Edredon Bleu that year in order to appease the press and go away from Cheltenham to take on the Irish Champion Beef Or Salmon on his home territory. Matey destroyed him there, no excuses on Beef not liking Cheltenham being the reason Matey was better this time.

I think they should have ignored the press and taken his 2nd King George instead as ultimately this counts for a lot more looking back. It is a consequence of circumstances and not being confident of his trip that cost Matey 3 King George wins.

Anyway, if the poor opposition argument is going to be brought up then how does that leave the equally great Istabraq beating his otherwise inconsequential stablemate into 2nd in two of his Champion Hurdle wins? These were 2 all time great horses. Bandwagon jumpers must make the worst kind of punter and there are a lot of them out there who dont look deeper and see the small detail that affects events.

He had also given up a King George win to stablemate Edredon Bleu that Christmas


When was the last time a horse was 4/6 antepost for the Arkle?

Eric - I'm fully conversant with Best Mate's career and it seems we have conflicting views on his achievements & ability.
I'm not wanting to argue with you, but merely stating a contrasting opinion - I certainly don't need enlightening about the top horses in racing over the decades.

Regarding your post...I hate to hear connections' excuses after a defeat or a harder than anticipated victory, as many are really flimsy & lame - it's become the norm with the Knight horses over the last decade

So many spout endless sh*te and they are very transparent.

As for Best Mate's first Gold Cup...have you forgotten that Walsh left the race behind at the second last with a 'stopper' of a blunder on Commanche Court?

As for this 'past his best' business...he was only 9 when he won his third Gold Cup - AT HIS PEAK!
He hadn't exactly had an arduous career had he?

Anyone reading your ground description would be thinking it was bottomless against Sir Rembrandt!
I don't think there was 'soft' in the going description for any of his wins - I thought all were on officially good ground

His entire career was like 'Goldilocks' - everything HAD to be right, and it certainly all seemed to fall into place for him.
Like Dawn Run, he had 'the gods' with him when it really mattered, though sadly, ultimately neither of them did

He was ALWAYS primed for the Gold Cup, and to compare that (relatively disappointing) third win to Kauto Star's Aintree defeat to Our Vic is most disingenuous, as that was a post-Cheltenham afterthought, AND he belted two out to gift it to the Pipe horse.

His three Gold Cups victories are in the record books for all time and his immortality assured, though his ability is way off the best of the last three decades.
On form, I wouldn't have him in my top 10 chasers, and 10 is being very kind to him...I was thinking more like 20!

PS - he preferred the easier option of The Lexus, and left Edredon Bleu to take in The King George, as connections PERMANENTLY had him in cotton wool, and weren't too keen to take on Jair Du Cochet again after The Peterborough beating!

JCD ran a shocker as it happens and proves that it's foolish to run away from ONE horse.

PPS Eric...I must admit that his jumping was as efficient as any chaser I've seen and probably only Wayward Lad was as economic.

It's not all gloom & doom

I dont need to say any more. You just confirmed my suspicions re being a bandwagon jumper. Kauto Star fans should remember the only reason he got away with not running in handicaps and being crucified by the dinosaur press who couldnt put a rating together otherwise is because of the campaigning of Best Mate which broke the mould. The people who constantly bayed for him to run against his biggest rival know they went to Ireland instead of picking up an easy King George to appease the press. I wouldnt have done this personally I would have given the press the big finger. Anyway its fools like you who allow prejudices like the aforesaid to cloud your judgement of a great horse who kept his price in successive Gold Cups that allowed me to win around 6 figures on him so I have you and your ilk to thank for that.

6 figures

what a mug! LOL

Desmond Orchard
30 Mar 11 18:02
Joined:
28 Jun 04
| Topic/replies: 1,753 | Blogger: Desmond Orchard's blog
Eric Morris on Horse Racing Ante-post/Cheltenham etc Fora, is the current incarnation of perhaps the most preposterous poster anywhere. He too is given to heroic last minute trades, directly at odds with previously strongly argued positions in order to get out in profit (often 6 figures!), despite never posting an actual bet before an event. He is utterly incapable of getting anything wrong and has, to my knowledge, never had a losing bet. Anyone who disagrees with him is a 'stalker', to whom he will attribute imaginary statements, obviously without any evidence to back them up, which he then attempts to discredit. He labours under the misapprehension that he has then 'proved you wrong' - a peculiar obsession of his that gives an indication of his overall insecurity. On the rare ocassions that he does tip up a winner (without actually admitting to having placed any actual money on the beast), he then crows from the rooftops that he is some kind of guru and all should worship at his alter, clearly oblivious to the fact that even a blind dog will pi55 up the odd lampost.
He is great fun though and we would miss him over there if his Mum ever banned him for any length of time. That said, there is no shortage of contenders for Forum Idiot waiting in the wings



taken from 'famous formulites but not famous on chit chat' thread. even they know hes a mug  (usually 6 figures) ahahaha they have him down to a tee and that was posted last march, glad hes still using it anyway PMSL

A_T....Burrough Hill Lad....surely not. The horse was an absolute monster, although sadly not the soundest. Right up there with the best few for me. His weight carrying performance in the Hennessy (carried 12st) was as good a performance as you could wish to see.

Poor Desmond took great exception to me saying Celestial Halo would not take to fencing before he tried them and was terrible value at 10s the Arkle.
Apparently to him as the highest rated hurdler he was great value blah blah.
We know the rest, he probably didnt even take any notice of me campaigning for Captain Chris to run in the Arkle and Starluck not to re his jumping last season against a mass of mugs who knew better.

Poor Desmond will never get over that where I showed him to be very wrong. He and others like him are the reason I rarely post on here re horses merits now. I am happy just enjoying the racing winning without the hassle.

Agree Burrough Hill Lad a great horse.

Also to Gibberish, rememeber the ratings after timers of results, Timeform, were telling you Long Run would go unbeaten this season but are now saying he has a tough task his next run. These ae the same people who were despeerate to get a hcap rating from Best Mate. What do they know they cant even get it right on him.

Got to say, I find it a little surprising that any horse who has won the Gold Cup on THREE occasions can be mentioned in a thread that is called 'most overated horses ever'. As has been demonstrated countless times on here, it is nigh impossible to compare horses from different generations. All they can do is beat what is in front of them and for a horse to win more than 1 GC is a pretty rare feat.

Ilikewavinatloonybuses spent most the previous winter arguing with me and others pre Guineas that Frankel was not a potentially great horse. His ego overshadowing his ability will never get over this

i always put dubai millenium up in these threads...bombed out in the derby ...won a couple races at royal ascot but one was a practical walk over and in the other sendawar his only real challenger ran a shocker....yes he won a dubai world cup but hey, so did moon ballad and almutawakel!!!! never deserved all the hype that surrounded him.

eric_morris
09 Feb 12 10:18
Joined:
27 Jun 10
| Topic/replies: 3,398 | Blogger: eric_morris's blog
Poor Desmond took great exception to me saying Celestial Halo would not take to fencing before he tried them and was terrible value at 10s the Arkle.
Apparently to him as the highest rated hurdler he was great value blah blah.
We know the rest, he probably didnt even take any notice of me campaigning for Captain Chris to run in the Arkle and Starluck not to re his jumping last season against a mass of mugs who knew better.

Poor Desmond will never get over that where I showed him to be very wrong. He and others like him are the reason I rarely post on here re horses merits now. I am happy just enjoying the racing winning without the hassle.






' On the rare ocassions that he does tip up a winner (without actually admitting to having placed any actual money on the beast), he then crows from the rooftops that he is some kind of guru and all should worship at his alter, clearly oblivious to the fact that even a blind dog will pi55 up the odd lampost.
'


oh i dunno eric, have a look at the irish forum tipping comp leaderboard and tell me where u see my name

i have no doubt i can make more money from this game than u so if u want us to start our own thread and we can put up selections BEFORE THE RACE i will be happy to embarrass u in front of everyone.

let me know

Gibberish, the only 3 horses I would fear against Best Mate around Prestbury Park in a true run race on good ground in my time following racing would be Denman, Burrough Hill Lad and Carvills Hill. I would gladly have a maximum bet on Matey against any other horse with that imaginary time machine in use. I rarely lose on max bets at the Festival and would expect to, all small details considered, on this one.

expect to collect

ILWAB throwing down a gauntlet to you there Eric

I think assessing past performances and tipping future superstars are two entirely different aspects of having an opinion on the sport.

Where do you draw the line at the NUMBER of potential greats you can nominate?
The obvious (like Mayweather's assertions of Big Buck's & Frankel) are there for ANY IDIOT to see...I get far more satisfaction from picking something with my own eye from relative obscurity, and ignoring what the media tells me.

I have had a few moments where it's all fallen into place (like Conduit after an Epsom handicap & Harchibald against Back In Front) and they're worth far more to me than just jumping on a conveyor belt of hype like Frankel & Kauto Star that are rolled out every single week of the year!

Unfortunately, I don't have anything pencilled in as destined for greater things right now, as my last longshot, Bouggler, has let me down badly!

Maybe Vendor of Alan King's could make the grade though he seems to prefer Grumeti for The Triumph at the moment - maybe he's more mature at the moment, but I know which one I prefer as a longer-term prospect.

Eric - I know you know your racing, and you're entitled to express an opinion, but that cuts both ways, and to be facetious or sarcastic in your contempt for others' views isn't on.

You'll probably be scornful of this but Imperial Commander's victory in 2010 is bombproof for me!

I'm not even a fan of the horse but how he ran that day was at the peak of his powers, and to discredit it is folly in my view.

You have to be CERTAIN that Denman was some way past his best on that day, and though there is a clear argument for him not being at a peak...did he really run THAT badly?

As good as Burrough Hill Lad was, he was much better than the form he showed on the day he scrambled home from Brown Chamberlin, and I think Bregawn's 'day in the sun' was stupendous!

I was astonished to see him make the pace and as far as an 'on the day' performance goes, he was absolutely brilliant, as was Silver Buck the previous year - in those days, the ground was a far more KEY factor as invariably the Festivals were run on heavy ground.

I'm well aware that you know Carvill's Hill never showed his best at The Festival, though he did look 'tailor-made' for the gruelling demands of a Gold Cup.

I also believe that this Long Run thing can deliver something on a par at least, when he gets his jumping sorted out (if it ever happens) because I can see him hosing up next month, even with a few blunders along the way - as long as they're not 'stoppers' he wins this easily IMV!

The trick is spotting them before they become great. I had 4 figures on Big Bucks for his first World Hurdle at 9/2 after his prep run where I saw tremendous scope in his performance and also same with Frankel his scope was immense even though his win was narrow.

I dont do tipping. The method I use antepost varies every year and can involve fairly complicated maths, at least it did last year. It doesnt interest me, if people want to show how great they are let them. If I prove people wrong re horses abilities and future on the forum, let me without the hassle. (this wont happen of course as egos are big on here)

I wont be posting much on here now it is much better to enjoy the racing without the grief.   

Enjoy the Festival.

Eric - I love to hear reasoned views from other people that appreciate the game, and there's nothing wrong with being off the mark on a particular day...we can't ALWAYS be right.

What matters is that you're at least in the right ballpark!
I remember spouting Kildimo from the rooftops a long time ago, well before he won the Sun Alliance, but unfortunately he came up against a monster in Desert Orchid that broke him!

The day he beat Dessie at levels weights on a RH track that Elsworth's grey was more than comfortable with, will live with me forever! He bladdered him!

Unfortunately, at that stage, he was only 2/1 (to Dessie's 1/2) to do so

Even I can't always be right

Don't despair because a few imbeciles are busting your balls...put them straight!

i see kirk's managed to hijack this thread with his nonsense.