Horse Antepost
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10 Jan 12
22:54
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Date Joined:
03 Feb 11
Just to add a little fun to proceedings views on this topic more than welcome and of course i have to start off the thread and in doing i had one from the flat and one from the jumps and there high profile and in picking one i will prevent another poster picking the first horse, so here goes and lets see how we get on.
BEST MATE. My all time hyped and media horse, it may of won a fair few races and also achieved something special in winning three gold cups, however in terms of achievement it only ever beat trees, it ran sparingly, picked its races and if it couldnt get its own way it took its ball away, well knight made sure that was the case, who can forget the race that made this horse the hype he was and that of course was the photo finish win over the fantastic top rated and wonder horse SEEBALD. Best mate would not get within hailing distance of the likes of Kauto or Denman or Long Run or Imperial Commander and even in my opinion Exotic Dancer, Best Mates form is there for all to see and there to be shot down in flames, no denying the achievement of three gold cups but as for form, well its right down there.
GALILEO. Again this horse has lots of decent wins to its name and is a good horse in its own right but all the hype that went along with it cannot be justified and how people like Jim MMcgrath can say its right up there as one of his best ever baffles me beyond belief, next he will be believing in god its that crazy.
Go back and analyse his form and see what you find, look at what he actually beat and all the hype just does not stack up, you dont here anyone going on about Giants Causeway as one of the best ever and yet his coral eclipse win in terms of form must rate better than anything Galileo did, it always amazes me how good horses are hyped innto super horses and this guy was most certainly a good horse but absolutely not one of the best, ok guys over to you and reasons why would be good with your selections.
BEST MATE. My all time hyped and media horse, it may of won a fair few races and also achieved something special in winning three gold cups, however in terms of achievement it only ever beat trees, it ran sparingly, picked its races and if it couldnt get its own way it took its ball away, well knight made sure that was the case, who can forget the race that made this horse the hype he was and that of course was the photo finish win over the fantastic top rated and wonder horse SEEBALD. Best mate would not get within hailing distance of the likes of Kauto or Denman or Long Run or Imperial Commander and even in my opinion Exotic Dancer, Best Mates form is there for all to see and there to be shot down in flames, no denying the achievement of three gold cups but as for form, well its right down there.
GALILEO. Again this horse has lots of decent wins to its name and is a good horse in its own right but all the hype that went along with it cannot be justified and how people like Jim MMcgrath can say its right up there as one of his best ever baffles me beyond belief, next he will be believing in god its that crazy.
Go back and analyse his form and see what you find, look at what he actually beat and all the hype just does not stack up, you dont here anyone going on about Giants Causeway as one of the best ever and yet his coral eclipse win in terms of form must rate better than anything Galileo did, it always amazes me how good horses are hyped innto super horses and this guy was most certainly a good horse but absolutely not one of the best, ok guys over to you and reasons why would be good with your selections.
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The old Best Mate was overrated debate. Looking at his form 22 races 14 wins 7 seconds 1 pulled up, and we know why. What we need to understand is that he was not as sound as some other top class horses,hence heart attack at ten. So he may have been given a lighter campaign something which has now become the norm with top class chasers.Don't forget he was a short price for the Arkle before foot and mouth. He was a supreme jumper and to say Kauto,Denman and Imperial Commander would beat him is debateable because they have all done something that Matey did not and that is fall.He could only beat what was put against him. We cannot say how much more he could have given us. If you stopped Kauto's form at ten then yes it makes him great but at 12 there are comparisons to Arkle. I really loved this horse before his Gold Cups and believe he deserves a place in the top 10 chasers of all time.
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well i think you judge horses on form as thats how we rate them in the end, form has to be based upon what they beat and in all honesty best mate could not get anywhere near kauto or denman or imperial commander or long run let alone desert orchid, as for light campaigns, well henrietta knight did her best to ruin racing by picking limited opportunitie and agains inferior opposition, theres also the arguement that he should not of won the first gold cup with commanche courts terrible mistake costing him any chance as did marlborough in the king george, the achievement as i said is in the books and has to be recognised but the form, eg truckers tavern, harbour pilot and sir rembrandt, let alone seebald knock his form in a big way, the arguement of he can only beat whats in front of him is ok but if he beat selling platers in every race his form would look very average, in his gold cup victories he beat nothing at all and should of won them in each case.
Kauto has also had injuries and come back from them as had denman and imperial commander, no matter what you think of the horse take out the ifs buts and maybes and your left with form which whilst decent was nowhere near the hype the horse got |
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lets here of other horses from people its all opinions after all, lets not debate best mate
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sorry lets HEAR
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Sorry Manuel but i find threads like this ridiculous we all have opinions on who was the best but when you say overrated what do you mean a gold cup is the supreme test of a horse and whilst i agree kauto star is more of a nations favourite and a wonderful horse who i believe would have beat best mate at kempton i wouldnt have been so sure about cheltenham both great horses in their own right sorry you feel best mate was overrated
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Long Run and Imperial Commander are overrated imo
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Overrated 3 gold cups. What a statement
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I have not posted on the issue of best mate before but he is easily the most overrated
chaser in my 35 year love affair with national hunt racing one of his gold cups he beat commanche court by less than 2 lenghts - that horse won only 3 out of its 20 chases and all three were handicaps another of the gold cups he was battered to beat sir rembrandt and harbour pilot by less than 2 lenghts - both of them were carthorses the comparison to arkle and kauto star is a joke , never mind carberry nearly falling off while waving back to BM the day beef salmon hammered him at leopardstown |
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Best mate was the best jumper of a fence i have seen could have been a showjumper.
there was not may great horses in his career not his fault. his 2nd gold cup was something to behold. id have him behind kauto and denman but not too far. |
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Menorah has been over rated ever since his Supreme Novices win - the form is proven to be well shy of Championship standard yet he has been sent off at short prices (even made favorite in the Bula trying to gice weight to Grandouet) in races he had no chance in.
Probably should have gone chasing straight after his novice hurdle season |
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I've always thought Binocular a bit overated,myself.
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Punjabi
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Danoli was the subject of some crazy hype in Ireland. Hawk Wing was a very moderate miler apart from one freak race at Newbury. Equally moderate as a sire.
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frankel
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Goldikova imo.
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Don't want to get into argument or debate, but before I opened this thread I thought...."this looks interesting and a decent idea by the poster. I quite like picking through people's suggestions and remembering some ultimate hype horses that never really delivered on their promise". Then I thought but please don't let me read nonsense like "Best Mate, Kauto Star, Red Rum etc"
Then when I open it the first horse mentioned is Best Mate....give me strength. He may not be everyone's idea of the greatest horse of all time but he won 3 Gold Cups and countless other races. He certainly doesn't deserve any mention on this thread. I was expecting to read things like "Sweet Wake, Cousin Vinny, Ouninpohja, Free World etc" |
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Best Mate was ok , beat good handicappers for 2 of 3 gold cups ,only won one king george
does he deserve a massive statue at cheltenham with his own named enclosure - not in my opinion |
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Since COMMANCHE COURT was mentioned I think there should be an
over rated jockey and I would nominate WALSH'S ride on Commanche, after hunting him round on the first cicuit, he came swinging along with 5 fences to go, but decided to lob alongside BEST MATE and others, instead of going on, this for 3 fences then he gives the office and Commanche hits the top of the second from home and being 1 length up going into the fence comes out 1 and 3/4 lengths behind, which is maintained to the line, Ted Walsh is reported as saying that was probably his ONLY chance of winning a GOLD CUP. |
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Sea The Stars totally overated imo!
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Best Mate only ran in 2 King Georges both times ridden by McCoy and first time they were not sure about his stamina. Please tell me about the great horses that Kauto Star and Denman have beaten and you will start to find holes in them. Best Mate had an injury the day he was beaten in Ireland by Beef or Salmon. Snoopy Loopy won a race that Kauto Star was in. Madison Du Berlais beat Denman. Little Josh beat Long Run.
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I think Best Mate is a fair call because the public at large really took to the horse and he was lauded to high heaven when in reality he was no better than a good gold cup winner who happened to benefit massively from the trend towards altering the going by putting in massive amounts of drainage but before the advent of watering to ensure decent ground. I doubt he would have won one gold cup in the days of proper national hunt ground. Which isn't the horses fault and getting the horse to three gold cups to run as well as he did was a feat in itself.
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I really can't agree with the last posting. Best Mate was a very good horse who won 3 Gold Cups against different opposition. The race that bottomed him in my opinion was his win in the King George on desperate ground. He was never quite as good after that. The over rated ones are those that have a reputation based on just one race which could easily have been a fluke.
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Yes agree. And I was joking re Goldikova.
Ovverated horses are like you say one that get lauded before evening winning major races. Horses like Muirhead.And hows about Dunguib. |
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May as well row in and say I agree about Best Mate being over-rated simply because beating Commanche Court, Truckers Tavern and Sir Rembrandt does not constitute greatness for me. A very good horse who might have been great given better class opposition to race against.
Dawn Run has her place in history but most judges will agree she was lucky to face a piss-poor field in the Champion Hurdle and without the allowance would have been unlikely to beat Wayward Lad et al (a far stronger field though that Best Mate ever faced in his 3 wins). She rarely gets considered a great for these reasons yet Best Mate somehow escapes such "reservations". Moscow Flyer was a truly great horse IMO as he regularly faced and usually beat some true top-notchers. As always it's all about opinions. This is a forum after all. |
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Dark D - I think people are wrong to knock horses (like Dawn Run) for receiving a weight allowance (and I realise you aren't). They receive the allowance for a very good reason. And whatever people think of Dawn Run, hers is a unique achivement (and who knows how good she could have gone on to be?).
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Over-rated by whom?
I don't remember the official handicapper going crazy over Best Mate, I don't think he got a mark over 180, so in comparison to some recent winners, then not over-rated. I doubt any of the above mentioned more recent winners could give him the weight difference of their highest marks in comparison to his around Prestbury Park. If you're talking about public affection, then that's a different thing altogether. The public take to horses for different reasons and being a multiple winner of the high profile CGC and being trained by the somewhat eccentric Knight, BM was always likely to enjoy some public acclaim. I don't care what he beat, dour staying on rags appear in the places of virtually every Gold Cup and a few have won them. However, the CGC is recognised as the supreme test of equine athletic ability over a staying trip and he won three of them. That's good enough for me. |
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pretty much every horse that is trained at Ballydoyle
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Greatness is not just measured by who beats who or ratings imo. It's as much about durability,resilience,mental fortitude and anything other big word you can think of! imo
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Moscow Flyer was a true great. Was a sad day when he regressed a little and started to lose over fences. I really thought he was a super horse who wouldn't ever lose (When completing). Sintonian not many flat horses could be considered durable since they mostly retire after one or two years :-)
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sageform
I didn't say Best Mate wasn't a very good horse. He was and I said he was a good standard gold cup winner. I stand by my comment about him being lucky to benefit from the changes to the course made by the clerk but surely the fact that he has a statue given the number of outstanding horses which have graced Cheltenham is evidence enough of his being overated. I agree with the official handicapper. A very good horse indeed. |
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Prem
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steinbeck
'birds singing from trees' etc... |
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I don't care what he beat, dour staying on rags appear in the places of virtually every Gold Cup and a few have won them.
Thats a good point Desmond . Galileo was a well above average Derby Winner, maybe have him in the top 20%, not aware people thought him much better than that .Sakhee was a better horse that year certainly. Most overated on the flat without a doubt MarkOfEsteem, who Timeform have as one of the top 4 milers of the last 50 years (behind only Brigadier Gerard,Frankel and Dubai Millenium) , i wouldn't have him in the Top 20 tbh Won a poor Guineas in a photo, tailed off at Royal Ascot, won a Group 2 then beat Bosra Sham (as most Group 1 colts of the day managed) then tailed off again in The Breeder's Cup, and for that is rated equal to Montjeu,Dayjur,Easy Goer and Peintre Celebre , superior to El Gran Senor, Nashwan and Mtoto and 1 lb inferior to Njinsky  |
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goldikova or canford cliffs
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Pretty much any current National Hunt horse. The band of Official Ratings is at least 10lb too high.
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I was a huge fan of Best Mate and the way he was campaigned. He certainly is not the best CGC winner ever but his acheievements were magnificent, likewise his handler, and he was pure class in his 2nd CGC. Knocking him is perverse IMO. Yes, he was not Arkle, but he was very, very good. That 2nd win reminded me of Kauto's 2nd win - conditions and race run to suit, oozed class. Kauto's first win was a farce of a race, and the form of his 2nd was iffy, Denman being 'wrong' before the race. I am not saying Kauto is overrated btw! BM's 3rd win was remarkable given how he hated the ground, given he was probably slightly past his best, and given he was chocked off against horses who loved conditions.
I agree that greatness is not demonstrated by 1 performance but the exception to the rule is Carvills Hill IMO - I have never seen anything like his Welsh National win and do not think I ever will. Talk abotu Denman in the Hennessy (imperious, one the best performances I have seen), but for me the most awesome, powerful steeple chase effort I have ever seen was Carvills - that would be in my top couple of all time performances (along with Dessie at Kempton, in Ireland or at Ascot). |
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Why are people so stupid regarding the word overrated. Denman was a great horse, but calling him the best chaser of all time is overrating him. Overrated does not mean bad. Nobody is calling Best Mate a poor horse, but he probably isnt in the 10 best chasers of all time, yet many rate him as such..hence overrated. Still great, but overrated
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I agree Shaund, still great but overrated - however, some posters (none above) use overrated as a euphemism for 'not very good' or 'badly overrated'.
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Under rated because of Arkle was probably the amazing Flyingbolt.
Most over rated horse was, on the track, Galileo; although his record at stud (a bit like Saddlers Wells) is fabulous. I still groan when I recall the entry for Galileo in the July Cup - a silly attempt to deceive people by pretending Galileo was not full of stamina. I dislike the bit about making out really top class stayers like Galileo are something other than that which they really are, not just because it is a bit disingenuous, but because it panders to the continued long terms fashion against stallions imparting stamina. These fashions are a self perpetuating and damaging trend. Great horses, like Yeats, Le Moss, Kayf Tara, Ardross, Sagaro, and to come in time Fame And Glory, get no really top class mares because breeders want to breed all the time for speed. Mt view is that had any of the above had the sorts of mares that Dea The Stars, Galileo, Dansili, Dubawi, Montjeu etc are now getting, they would have bred some utterly brilliant horses; instead they get selling hurdlers and bumper hoses to poke and all they end up breeding is staying chasers - a damned shame. |