Horse Antepost
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MOST OVERATED HORSES EVER
MOST OVERATED HORSES EVER
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In terms of column inches written to achievements - Killer Instinct
Also, if Timeform could go back and rethink history I'm pretty sure they would start with the rating they gave Arkle. |
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Roger - Timeform never miss an opportunity to defend that rating!
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Great post Cryoftruth
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rogerthebutler (unpleasant image)
I will rise to the bait. Arkle was amazing. Can you imagine this? After 2 Cheltenham Gold Cup wins, Arkle was so lumbered with weight he looked to have it all to do with his high rating when going for his second Hennessy. The Hennessy then, as now, was inevitably won by an improver. Having already won 2 Gold Cups it seemed less than likely that Arkle could still be improving, but he was, and how! However for his second Hennessy win he warmed up by smashing the Sandown course record by 17 seconds (record still stands about half a century later). He ran at Sandown with the same rating he was due to run off at Newbury so the ante post YES ANTE POST betting for the Hennessy was duly adjusted to be: 1/5 On Arkle. Of course he trotted up again with 12 stones 7 lbs. its quite unimaginable stuff, but its true its fact. I personally cannot remember any handicap chase ever with an ante post market starting with 1/5 on favourite some weeks before the race. But that was Arkle - unique. I don't know how you begin to rate a horse that was the utter phenomenon that was Arkle. 212 may be a bit high but the recording of his Gallaher Gold Cup win they showed a while ago on channel 4 was a real eye opener. Watching Arkle take the last 2 fences in the straight, coming further and further clear with all that weight, quickening all the time like a flat horse is just unbelievable. Just because it happened a long time ago does not mean it wasn't real - hard though the record books seem to accept, its a fact, he was just a freak of nature. His jumping at Sandown in particular is incredible, fast economical, quick away from his fences. I have followed racing for a long time and with the exception of a couple of efforts by Flyingbolt, the actual form displayed by Arkle is quite a bit better than anything we have seen since, great horses though Desert Orchid and Kauto Star have undoubtedly been. |
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COT - you said above that flyingbolt is underrated. Why so and by how much iyo?
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Over rated!!!! SNAAFI and STAR OF INDIA.
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I just think that when people mention the greatest ever chasers Flyingbolt is not usually mentioned - perhaps because its a long time ago and because he was not around for very long when he was in training, with a couple of seasons at his fantastic prime.
He was also a bit of a phenomenon - fro memory doing something astonishing like winning a champion chase on a Tuesday before going close in a champion hurdle about 24 hours later. He also won that 20 furlong chase (used tio be called the Massey Ferguson Gold cup) by miles carrying an amazing burden. He was a bit like Arkle - an utter freak but unlike Arkle he is rarely mentioned. Of course Timeform didn't and generally don't under or over rate horses, they just do sums for pounds per length and to them its like a Maths exercise. I think they had Flyingbolt a few pounds behind Arkle, and rate him the second best ever chaser. The excellent article about him is taken from Wikipaedia, and is a nice read for those who like a sense of hiastory in racing - he was quite an animal, deserving of more attention than he gets. Officially he is the second best National Hunt racehorse of all time, after Arkle, but not nearly as well known as his rival. Flyingbolt's racing career was dogged by illness and injury. It is very difficult to rate horses who never actually raced against each other but a comparison of their merits is probably best illustrated by the Official Handicapper who at one stage in 1966, when both were at the height of their powers, rated Arkle the superior by only 1 lb (0.5 kg).[clarification needed] Timeform, the highly respected racing publication had a difference of 2 lbs between them. The two never raced together because both were trained by the same man, Tom Dreaper. [edit] After his customary summer break, Flyingbolt was sent chasing in the autumn of 1964. He won all 5 of his starts including the 2-mile Champion Novice Chase at Cheltenham (known then as the Cotswold Chase) and his final start at Fairyhouse where he carried 12 st 2 lb to victory giving the second horse 37 lb. His superiority was such that he started at odds-on in all of his races that season. He made his seasonal re-appearance in a handicap hurdle at the Phoenix Park on the 2nd October 1965 where he finished 4th when trying to concede 28 lbs and upwards to his rivals. Although beaten for the first time in more than two years, it was really only a warm-up race prior to the resumption of his chasing career, a sphere in which he still remained unbeaten. Flyingbolt proved to be a sensation during this season, winning all 6 of his chases with consummate ease ranging in distance from 2 miles to 3 and a quarter miles. He began with a victory in the Carey's Cottage Handicap Chase at Gowran Park, winning by 5 lengths carrying 12th-2 lbs and giving 32 lbs to the second horse. This was followed by a trip to Ascot in November where he won the prestigious Black & White Gold Cup in a canter by 15 lengths. For the first time in 8 starts over fences he started at odds-against for the Massey Ferguson Gold Cup at Cheltenham in December. The reason for what appeared to be a generous price was because he had been allotted 12th-6 lbs in the race and had to give 25 lbs and more in weight to his 10 rivals, a task which many thought might prove to be beyond him. However those who backed him in from 5/1 to 5/2 favourite knew what he was capable of and he did not let them down. In one of the finest performances of his career, he took the lead with 3 to jump and galloped his rivals into the ground, drawing right away to win by 15 lengths in very testing conditions. Pat Taaffe described the race in his autobiography 'My Life and Arkle's: "The ground at Cheltenham had been very heavy when we arrived, but by the time of the race unceasing rain had turned it into a sea of mud. For Flyingbolt, with twelve-stone-six to carry, you just couldn't imagine anything worse........I had Flyingbolt settled down nicely in the middle of the field, relaxed, jumping superbly and biding his time........ Then, as planned, I made my first move going up the hill at the far end of the course and Flyingbolt, unleashed and free, began to fly through the field........ At the top of the hill only Solbina and Scottish Memories were still in front. Flyingbolt went past and away from them, a man running against boys. Rounding the final bend, he was going so easily that he found time to jump a path across the course. He stormed up the hill, increasing the distance between him and his pursuers with every stride, to win by fifteen lengths from Solbina with Scottish Memories third. It was the manner of his victory, rather than the victory itself, that caused the furore. Men remembered that Scottish Memories had met Arkle twice in the previous season and stretched him on both occasions. In this selfsame race, the Massey-Ferguson, there had been thirty-three pounds and two lengths between them. And in the Leopardstown Chase, thirty-five pounds and one length. Now Flyingbolt had given him twenty-six pounds and left him sixteen and a half lengths behind. Didn't this prove that Flyingbolt was now every bit as good as his more illustrious stable-mate?" His next start was back at home in the Thyestes Handicap Chase at Gowran Park where he carried the now customary top weight and beat Height O'Fashion by a distance (in excess of 30 lengths) giving her 28 lbs with Flying Wild (who received 29 lbs) another 25 lengths back in third. Yet another astonishing performance. Indeed Arkle had failed by a length to give 32 lbs to Flying Wild in the previous season's Massey-Ferguson Gold Cup. His next port of call was the Cheltenham Festival for the 2-mile Champion Chase. He started at odds of 1-5, the shortest price in the history of the race and he won pulling up by 15 lengths. The comment beside his name in the Form Book afterwards said it all - "took lead 2 out, canter". This effort led many to regret that he wasn't given the chance to take on Arkle in the Gold Cup. Unfortunately, because both were trained by the same man, this was always unlikely to happen. However, 24 hours after the Champion Chase, Flyingbolt re-appeared in the Champion Hurdle where despite taking on the specialist 2-mile hurdlers he started a short priced favourite. Although beaten by just over 3 lengths, Pat Taaffe was widely criticised for going round the outside and perhaps not letting this proven stayer set a clear lead earlier. As it was, Flyingbolt got too close to the fourth last and lost valuable ground which may well have cost him the race. It is also possible that Taaffe was mindful of the fact that he had just raced the previous day and instead of kicking on down the hill in order to make full use of his stamina, he waited till the straight which allowed his 'quicker' rivals to conserve their energy and he was just caught for 'toe' after the last. Indeed, it was one of the very rare occasions that Tom Dreaper ever expressed his dissatisfaction to Pat for the ride he gave to one of his horses. However, Flyingbolt ended his season on a high note when carrying the welter burden of 12th-7 lbs in the Irish Grand National over three-and-a-quarter miles at Fairyhouse beating Height O'Fashion (by 2 lengths) and the previous year's winner Splash, giving them 40 lbs and 42 lbs respectively. When Arkle (carrying 12-0) won the same race 2 years previously he beat Height O'Fashion by a length-and-a-quarter giving her 30 lbs, 10 lbs less than what Flyingbolt had conceded. Indeed Flyingbolt is the only Irish National winner since 1946 to have carried 12-7 to victory in this race and it is a feat that is most unlikely to be repeated. Pat Taaffe later reflected on the race in his aforementioned book when he said: "Flyingbolt won the 1966 Irish National very easily from Arkle's old rival Height O'Fashion. He settled down beautifully and I was surprised how well he stayed. If top weight worried him, it never showed. He made winning look an easy thing that day. Once again I was reminded that I was alternating between the king and crown prince of chasing. More than ever, it now seemed only a matter of time before he took over from Arkle." It was yet another remarkable effort and he was now unbeaten in 11 starts over fences. In all, he had won 17 of his 20 races including 3 wins in 3 different races at the Cheltenham Festival, a feat that has yet to be equalled. [edit] |
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Thanks COT. You're right - Timeforem rated Arkle 212 and Flyingbolt 210. You're also right Flyingbolt is often forgotten. I just read your comment to mean you thought Flyingbolt might be better than Arkle!
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Thanks COT Brilliant read. I was aware of Flyingbolt but did not know fully of his fantastic achievements What a race that would have been if they had gone head to head!
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Cry, memory fading sometimes, but I seem to remember backing
FLYINGBOLT and KERRIEMUIR in a double and Flyingbolt was 4/9, would that have been the Cotswold 'Chase, the forerunner of the Arkle, if so it was 1965 Cheltenham Festival? |
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bazaar
you are older than me. My memory of that era was watching Arkle take on Mill house in the first Gold Cup with Peter O saying "and this is it now this is the big two...and it's Mill House for England and Arkle for Ireland.... and it's Arkle's if he jumps the last...this is the best we have seen for long time" still give me goose pimples now. i was at home with flu watching the old black and white telly in front of the coal fire. Funny some people remember what they were doing when Kennedy got shot. I don't, I remember Arkle at aged about 8 years. Seems like I had my priorities right even back then! bazaar, do you think Arkle is over rated by the 212 yourself. My own view is that, having seen the replay of the Gallagher gold cup, that he was as near to being an unbeatable horse as anything I have ever seen. If Arkle met say Kauto Star at Sandown over 3 miles, I suspect Arkle would go very close to winning, even at a weight difference of 19 lbs. Remember that the 212 is the top rating Arkle will ever have done. As I say I am not sure anything that has ever run handicapped within 2 stones of Arkle would have beaten him that day at Sandown. |
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my first serious win on the horses was when I backed Red Rum for the first of his grand national wins. The third time he won I won quite big too - i had him with an unraced 3yo of **** hern's in an 80/1 double. After that there was no looking back!
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Great stories cryoftruth, please tell us more. My first memory of the horses is Rag Trade winning the National I was 7 my mum put a bet on for me I picked it because of the comedy programme of the same name.
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One stands out for me....
Talking Horse that could'nt walk let alone gallop.... BEEF OR SALMON.....Dog of a Horse vastly over-rated! |
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I wish I owned a dog that won TEN Grade I steeplechases and beat THREE Cheltenham Gold Cup winners...
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WW - I think Beef Or Salmon was far from over-rated and IMV often looked upon as a soft touch!
The horses plainly never ran up to form in his UK ventures and that was a great pity, as he definitely could have served it up to the best. Who knows? He may have been sea-sick every time... |
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Most overated horses are last years novices by the handicapper. Barring 1 or 2, should drop the rest a good few pounds.
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Chasers, I am referring too.
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Gents don't be fooled by cryoftruth - the first time he backed a National winner was Lovely Cottage in the first race run after the War!!
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One I remember from a few years back was Cork All Star. Scooshed up in the Festival bumper and was hyped to the high heavens subsequently.
He only won one race after that in ten tries under rules, a maiden hurdle first time out the following Season. Now 10 years old, he was running in Hunter Chases last Season. Not sure if he is still in training or not? Come to think of it, you can probably add every recent Festival Bumper winner to the list. |
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Steamship
The year Rag Trade won I had an each way bet on Red Rum. That year the owner had jocked off Brian Fletcher for being too soft on Red Rum in his trial (ie didn't whip him). brain was riding Eyecatcher in the race but from about 2 out was screaming at Tommy stack, Red rum's jockey, to press on and use his stamina, fearing that his old friend would get done for toe by rag Trade if he left his final effort too late. he was right of course. If fletcher had ridden Red Rum that year he would have possibly won 4 nationals rather than just the three. I watched on ESP classic Red Rum's 3 National wins the other month. The second win was probably the most amazing. Put up to 12 stones he was thought by most pundits to have zero chance. What did they know. he didn't just win that year he killed the whole lot of them and won by a mile - amazing. in his 5 nationals he made 1 slight mistake that i can remember. not a big horse either by any means, just jumped like a cat, very clever and very sure footed. Red Rum also won a Scottish National with top weight too. he was a pretty good horse as well as just a fabulous national horse. not sure he would do so well nowadays as the fences are less of a factor. Good thing though really. The old Beecher's Brook with its horrendous drop killed too many decent horses. Alverton and Dark Ivy to name but two really beautiful animals. |
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You can't blame really Dark Ivy's death on Beecher's Brook! The horse just in front to his left jumped right and the horse to his right jumped left, he had nowhere to go and hit the fence so hard he somersaulted landing on his back the other side. Remember seeing a similar incident in a handicap hurdle at Catterick. Same result...
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Did lol at the comment about Beef or Salmon hammering Best Mate in the Lexus (in v soft ground), fails to mention the numerous times Best Mate hammered BoS so far the jock couldn't turn around and wave because BoS was out of sight or PU.
Class horse, not even a debate. |
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I also seem to remember Best Mate returned that day from Ireland a sick horse. Beef was very good but their records when it mattered speak for themselves IMO.
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Alverton + Dark Ivy, sad memories.
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Remember crying when Alverton died, if I remember right the changes to Beechers were made after the 89 race where 2 Brown Trix fell in the brook and Julian Wilsons commentary said "they have to avoid a dead horse". This was also the time when the jkockey rules were changed.
Back on topic Hawkwing |
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Remember that commentary Steamship - at the end of grandstand, they muted it out. On the replay in the evening they had re-recorded it.
Did remember being shattered too at Dark Ivys death. Saw the race recently and its a horrific sight. Hated Attitude Adjuster after that. Me back on topic, Fundamentalist was going to win the boat race amongst other targets in his prime lol! |
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Steamship
I cried to. I got 25/1 about Alverton before he won the Gold cup. he was carrying 10stone 13 or something at Aintree, as champion and Gold Cup winner - a certainty for Aintree barring a fall. Jonjo said that at Aintree he just seemed to not see Beechers Brook at all, just ploughed at speed into the bottom of it and broke his neck on landing. Bloody tragedy; the gamest horse to jump a fence I ever saw. When he won the Gold Cup he beat Tied Cottage (who won next year's race) in going that was on the harsh side of merciless. He was a good flat horse too Alverton; not so many have ver amassed a record like his or will again. http://community.tvg.com/t5/History-and-Photos/1979-CHELTENHAM-GOLD-CUP-WINNER-ALVERTON/td-p/240607 |
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Jonjo said he was the best horse he ever rode.
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Saying Beef or Salmon was a dog is silly, he clearly didn't like Cheltenham and probably remembered the crashing fall he took as a novice the first time he raced there. He won 10 grade 1s in Ireland. He wasn't lauded so can't be overrated. Best Mate turly is, yeah he won 3 Gold Cups but was more the benefit of an astonishingly weak staying chase division, with the added benefit of the only real rival, Beef or Salmon not acting at Cheltenham. Best Mate was beaten fair and square in an Irish Hennessy by that horse.
Master Minded is the most overrated horse imv, since that first champ chase win at the age of 5 he was built up as a superstar, especially given his trainer/owner combo. His 2nd season he beat dogs like Petit Robben in Grade 1's and a washed up old Well Chief and benefited from Big Zeb falling in the Champion Chase. That horse was about to tonk him at Punchestown a month later only for the final fence to save him. Two subsequent Champ Chases showed how far behind that horse over 2m he really was, being hammered out of sight in 2010 when he was a 7yo and should be in his prime. Then hammered again last year by Zeb and others. Those two were horses who benefited from weak divisions, something Moscow Flyer and Kauto Star have not had the benefit of. Racing horses like Azertioup, Well Chief, Denman, Imperial Commander and Long Run. |
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Desert Orchid.
A white horse; a blonde footballer: they stand out if they do anything. |
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Desert Orchid of course over rated , winning a Irish Grand National, Whitbread Gold Cup,Victor Chandler all off top weight. Also a Cheltenham Gold Cup and King George Chases nothing better than a seller.
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Kincsem. OK 54/54, but what did she beat? A load of Central European yaks, that's what!
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CVB - some really good points in your post and I agree entirely with all of them!
I'm not one for hype but I have to admit that Master Minded's first Champion Chase was as jaw-dropping as anything I've seen in over 30 years! For once, there was a horse who deserved the hype...he was after all a 5yo winning an all-aged Championship chase at the Festival which is something I didn't think was possible! Furthermore, in doing so, he absolutely hammered the Champion Chaser (albeit a well below average one) by 20 lengths! The usual bullsh*t hype when a horse's reputation is built on the guff the trainers tell us, and the media blow all out of proportion, are the ones that really get on my tits, and even though Master Minded disappointingly hasn't achieved as much as many of us thought, he fully earned all the accolades. PS - to add to the Best Mate assassination attempts, it's often regarded as an easy era when he won his three Gold Cups, but that's far from the truth. There were some exceptional chasers around the turn of the millennium (better than most other periods) and besides Beef Or Salmon, there was plenty of strength in depth with such quality chasers as Florida Pearl, First Gold, See More Business, Jair Du Cochet & Looks Like Trouble. He was fortunate to avoid them ALL at the peak of their powers for various reasons, and I have little doubt that the performance of Doumen's First Gold in his King George win would have sorted out Knight's pride & joy - alas, it was never really replicated. What's not in question is the paucity of 'on fire' opposition he faced in his Cheltenham victories, and the difficulty he had in despatching those moderate ones in two of his three Cheltenham wins - for that reason, he'll never be a 'Great' as far as I'm concerned,though his 'immortality' in chasing history is assured. |
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OVERDOSE!
keep hearing about the bleedin void race! until his races in the uk he beat absolutely nothing and was then soundly beaten once he raced against decent horses! decent horse, yes, but very very average!! |
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Sprinter Sacre
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Ooh a brave selection.
You could be right - hope you are to be honest financially at least. |
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Burrough Hill Lad - clearly a top class chaser but not the all-time great many claim.
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Killer Instinct.....what a disapointment, came in for a Pasternak type gamble as being stones in at the weights for the John Smiths (i think!) and stuffed.
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danoli forest tiger ravens pass wayward lad
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