So You Think is overrated

We have already established he was hanging a bit and cheekily poking his tongue out at all the doubters.............yet he still won.

Need we say more, if he actually gets his $h1t together look out![;)]

darren lamb overated imo and vastly

Racing Post ratings has Decided Work Force produced a career best performance in the Eclipse. I wonder what he will expect when the horse runs over his best trip and ground. He has also said Sui Putra haw improved 4lb from his near identical beating at Ascot. All this is because he wants to rate So You Think 132. It looks like if you hype a horse enough people are affected by it.

If you can back up the hype then there is no problem IMO, its when O'Brien shoots his mouth off and stuffs up the race as was the case in the POW that you end up looking like a complete knob.

Bart Cummings never hyped SYT he just let the horse do the talking, and talk he did, im sure many of us Aussies would prefer the same method/s from Ballydoyle.

Is O'brien guilty of over hypeing horses? I think we all know the answer to that.

I highly doubt timeform or any other ratings agency would fall into the trap of over rating SYT on "hype".

fm, timeformwere clearly impressed by him given the figures he was given!

Lets be frank here, let me guess who here in this thread bet on Workforce yesterday?

..........3 people!

[smiley:crazy]

What was not be impressed about?

He beat an equal rated horse (both were 132 last year) and Workforce ran a cracking race yet SYT was hanging a bit and his tongue was hanging out, Rewilding is currenty rated above him on his last effort and all power to Rewilding for that run BTW, if Rewilding can back up his form and Workforce can win at his preffered distance then both can improve their ratings aswell, you can only rate one race at a time and as of yesterday SYT proved his former rating of world middle distance champion was no fluke.

Sure its certainly not any easier to prove your worth when your trainer adds his own hype to trip himself over with, but thats his problem.

youve lost me... all i said is that timeform rated his win highly

I wasnt actually replying to you personally, you just happened to post a few seconds before i posted so i didnt read your post.

The tone of the thread appears to be that hes overrated because hes overhyped, but the world ratings out yesterday show he got pegged down a level after the POW debacle, so i dont see any credence in the OP's claim, i do though agree O'Brien overhypes him, and he fell on his own sword for that mistake.

The rating he recieved for yesterday counts for little untill the next world rankings come out and their will likely be two or more races by then so its a moot point IMO.

FWIW I agree totally that Frankel and Black Caviar are top rated and SYT will need to do something pretty amazing like win another group 1, the Arc and or the BC to knock those two off top spot.

Hope i didnt lose you there.

His bare form in the Uk is that of a solid group one winning horse but we've yet to see anything exceptional.
If Rewilding had run yesterday theres no reason to suggest he wouldn't have won.
As i stated on earlier posts the reason we haven't seen the Exceptional SYT the Aussies talk about , may well
be that he prefers going Left handed. If he lines up at York against Frankel we'll find out if he is the horse
they rave about.

Thats a very good point, his biggest wins in AUS were all on left handed tracks and i agree he has not looked exceptional for what ever reasons besides his earlier warm up races in Ireland, can he go with the momentum now?

Rewilding may well prove to be an exceptioanl horse and Workforce could well peak at his preffered distance and win the Arc again, not to mention Canford Cliffs, Frankel was getting a bit shaky at the post last race, can he hold off these other 3 horses for top spot?

So it will be an interesting 6 months to see who can be still standing at the top 2011 year end.

The only (hardly bold) prediction i will make is that the current world rankings will be different come year end.

His time was excellent, nothing overrated about it.

Ah ratings good old ratings the anoraks play thing, a horse doesn't know if its rated 120 or 140.

I take not one bit of notice of them I let my eyes do the talking, sultan makes a good point though, how can Timeform actually rate yesterdays performance by SYT any better than his Ascot run?, if you take a literal reading of the form through Sri Putra the horse ran to its raw ability, the horse hasn't ran any better or any worse, thats as good as he is which is pretty good, fine the horse beat Workforce but as has been pointed out Workforce's best performances have been over 12F.

I'm not here to support Timeform's methods, but they don't use "yardstick" handicapping, wisely so, imo.

ascot and sandown have shown him to be a genuine group 1 horse, just not exceptional. maybe he'll do better still - would be good to see.

agree with the poster who said rewilding would have won yesterday, provided he'd been laid out for it.

the other thing is, so you think no longer looks so versatile. for example, doubt he'd finish in the top 3 in this year's melbourne cup even with same weight.

he's sweated up quite badly last two runs as well - no idea if he did that in aus.

First of all, ForceMajeure's constant haranguing of Aidan and Joseph O'Brien is cringeworthy. I must admit, I enjoyed his posts at first, but now I just skip over anything he writes. Hopefully, he will cop himself on sometime soon, and also apologise for his appalling comments on the horse racing forum yesterday.

As for So You Think the horse, I think he is a very good horse with the potential to be a great one. There will always be questions surrounding the form, so the only way to answer the critics is to prove his versatility and his consistency by bagging one or two more Group Ones at 1m 2f and 1m 4f before winning at the Breeder's Cup. I accept the distances to Sri Putra are consistent with one another but I'd be wary about reading too much into them. So You Think is comfortably superior to that animal, and in the end, there will be more to his legacy than just the lengths and pounds he gave to his rivals.

Can I also remind users that since coming to Ireland, So You Think has won two Group Ones and a Group Three, and was headed into second in another Group One when supposedly not fully fit. Not many horses do that. And remember he has already won two Cox Plates as well as four other Australian Group Ones plus finished third in a Melbourne Cup. Worst case argument is that he's a very good horse.

If people want to argue his handicap ratings, then that is a different story. In my opinion, ratings are fallacious. They do not reward consistency, versatility, longevity, temperament, or style. Analyse So You Think and Sri Putra in each of those categories, and I think the former comes out with a lot more in hand than what the winning margins might suggest.

Love the last paragraph

Think it's the best race of the year personally and SYT defo one of the great horses I have seen. I backed WF yesterday and although initially disappointed he did not win he ran a great race. Possibly in front too long but it was a 10f race and I guess they had to gamble one way or the other with it not being his best trip. SYT will not get beat over 10f again IMO.

i was impressesd!! beat a derby and arc winner who didnt seem too far out of his comfort zone. will be interesting to see if they will both meet over 12f.

comfort zone over 1f that is (wf) sorry.*

10f*



ffs

again sorry!

and was headed into second in another Group One when supposedly not fully fit

Anyone believe that?  I certainly didn't.  He was fit at Ascot alright and was beaten by the better horse.
So he loses half a length to Rewilding and was unfit and beats Workforce half a length and was fit.
Crock of sh1t.  He's been fit since after his first run. Aidan did this with DOM and Dylan Thomas, records of whom his is looking quite comparable at the moment.

The crunch comes with what he does for the rest of the season. DOMarmalade tailed off and left a legacy of being a top older horse but not quite a champion, Dylan Thomas won an Arc:  immortality gained.

He's at that level and what kind of races he runs in from now on will tell us his true class.  I'm not for rating a horse highly for beating a high class but small field.  Sea the Stars best rating came out of his Irish Champion win yet I challenge anyone to deny that his Arc win was his most exhilarating performance by far.  So far So You Think's European campaign looks all about ticking boxes for breeding purposes.  He needs a mega Group 1 on his CV for me and he may well be good enough to get one. We'll see.

I understand some would be upset about myself using Internet slang for "not very bright" but i must disagree that SYT was in any way unfit for the POW, that is a very poor excuse for a very poorly prepared and executed race plan.  The two previous two soft races before the POW did not help his cause either, but he was in no way unfit. I am adamant that the "check" he received lost him the race, combined with Ryan Moore going too early which also may relate to the check incident.

Anyway that is the past and the current world rankings show that that mistake was punished in its fullness, O'Brien to his credit learnt from the mistakes of the POW as good trainers do.

SYT is still though sweating up, hanging and as we saw yesterday has his tongue hanging out and open to debate if right handed tracks work for him, these are all issues/problems that unless solved will cause further disappointment in races going forward and will need to be sorted.

Maybe O'Brien is thinking about the Irish race then running him back on a left handed track for the Cox Plate and the Breeders Cup (if im not mistaken the US run left handed), and bypassing the Arc which is a left handed race.

One thing is certain, he wont be meeting small fields in the cox plate and BC (or the Arc) so he would want to be on song for those, just scraping through on class alone will not cut it in these races.

Note: I meant to say the Arc is NOT a left handed race

In the Prince Of Wales Stakes, I would say So You Think was fit but I wouldn't say he was conditioned to run to his absolute maximum. And he won't be until his major end of season target, be it the Arc, the Cox Plate or the Classic.

After the Tatts Gold Cup, John Magnier was interviewed on RTE and one of the things he explicitly stated was that So You Think would improve a lot for that run. He said that Aidan had kept plenty in reserve or words to that effect. So it's not just in defeat that they trotted out the "unfit" excuse, but also in victory. However, it was a poor choice of words in the interview after the POW, where Aidan stated that he wasn't fit. I think what he meant to say was that there was better to come from the horse. And for most, I would assume that is believable.

So yes I believe they tried to be smart in the Prince of Wales' Stakes. They wanted to win it but were prepared to risk taking as little out of the horse as possible. If the end justifies the means, etc. In the end, the gamble went awry and he lost. But only just. But luckily for them, they could go home knowing that there was better to come.

We've seen Aidan's horses in the past go to Arcs and Classics after tough summer Group One campaigns and flatten out by October. The last thing they want is for that to happen to So You Think. The day he runs in the Arc or the Classic is the day we hopefully see him at his very very best. The So You Think that won last year's Cox Plate.

For that reason, I think he will only have a maximum of two more races before October. Probably the Irish Champion Stakes and one other race, maybe the Juddmonte International. I think the Cox Plate is unlikely given the quarantine issues and the fact that he's already won two hardly encourages going back Down Under to prove himself to a nation who already hail him as one of their best! As regards the Arc, Coolmore have 6 or 7 genuine contenders for that race, and I'm not sure if Aidan has ever mentioned stepping up in trip in his post race interviews. So I think it'll be the Breeders Cup Classic as So You Think's end of season finale. And that is the day where he can crown himself as one of the greats.

So You Think

I was one who doubted whether SYT could better his already good performance in the POW, but in the Eclipse I have him improving on that by 3lbs. Whether that was through a slight fitness improvement or better tactics I couldn't say. Are you seriously saying, though, that his one and a quarter length defeat of the 9yo Zipping, who was giving him 3lbs, was better than his performance on Saturday?

His Cox Plate win was visually more stunning than his Eclipse win, that is what I would say.

I accept the lengths and the pounds translating into numbers debate but I am always wary about reading too much into them. I like to take a loose interpretation of what the handicap says. But you are probably right, going by the figures, So You Think probably ran a lot better on Saturday.

Zipping is also a funny old creature. He came into that race off the back of a win in the Turnbull Stakes, which attracts all the Cox Plate contenders every year. It's probably the premier trial for the Cox Plate? Plus many of Australia's Group One stars race on into double figures as geldings. So again, just because Zipping is 9 years old, the form should not be lessened - didn't Fields of Omagh win one of the most thrilling Cox Plates back in 2004 or 2005? At nine years of age.

My ratings are only time based, but in my view that was the best Eclipse win for a number of years, Workforce's performance was easily good enough to take an average running. If SYT can run to that form in October he'll be very hard to beat. Unless he's a freak he must be feeling the effects of those last 2 races combined now, he had to dig deep to get the better of Workforce. There has to be a doubt about how many more times he can run to that sort of level this year.

If Rewilding had run yesterday theres no reason to suggest he wouldn't have won

Before the Eclipse, all we hear is "wait till he meets a proper horse like Workforce".

Now it's "if only Rewilding had run, he would have beat him again".

My opinion is, Rewilding won the POW fair and square. However I also think, run the POW 10 times and So You Think wins it 8 times.

In other words, I hope people keep believing Rewilding with beat So You Think next time they meet, I may actually get decent odds for once!

tactics got him beat on the POW. had he been ridden like he was v WF he'd have won. (imo of course)

rewilding is a good horse fresh, dont feel like SYT diasppointed that much, no doubt hes perhaps slightly overrated by AOB given his comments 'the best i've ever trained...' and looking at some of the brilliant horses he has trained in the past. syt may be the best hes ever trained but he still has more to do if he is to prove this as even if AOB is saying this , its pure guesswork at this stage because the horse hasnt done it on the track! won nicely the other day and was well on top at the line i thought. more of the same please, super race!

My ratings are only time based, but in my view that was the best Eclipse win for a number of years, Workforce's performance was easily good enough to take an average running. If SYT can run to that form in October he'll be very hard to beat. Unless he's a freak he must be feeling the effects of those last 2 races combined now, he had to dig deep to get the better of Workforce. There has to be a doubt about how many more times he can run to that sort of level this year.

Well I certainly won't argue with that. I'm blue in the face championing So You Think on this forum. And then others bring up the distances to Sri Putra as a means of lessening his obvious brilliance.

They also know how to make them durable down in Ballydoyle. I would hope the Prince of Wales Stakes didnt take as much out of him as percieved. After all, the idea behind him not being fully tuned up was that there would be better to come. And it has come in the Eclipse. But I still believe he will improve again, and all the better if that elevates him into freak status on your figues.

Unless he's a freak he must be feeling the effects of those last 2 races combined now, he had to dig deep to get the better of Workforce. There has to be a doubt about how many more times he can run to that sort of level this year

Nah, So You Think probably thinks he's on holidays up there. Take his second Cox Plate win. One week later he wins another Group 1 10f race (by 4 lenghs no less) then THREE DAYS LATER he runs in the Melbourne Cup over 16f - and while he was defeated into third place, I don't think his racing schedule was too blame, he was simply outstayed by two horses (but did beat 21 lightly weighted horse home).

Yes, but there was a big difference in style between his Cox Plate win and the Eclipse, he appeared to do it very easily in the Cox Plat. While he was obviously the best horse on Saturday, I don't see how anybody could say it was achieved easily. Also, looking at the proximity of the runners in the Cox Plate, I doubt he had to run anywhere near as fast as he did in the Eclipse.

Fields of Omagh, now there was an iron horse who matured like a fine wine with age, perenial bridesmaid to Sunline, Northerly, Lohnro and Makybe Diva etc etc, I remember getting matched at $50 on Betfair Ante Post when he won the Cox plate.......memories!

Just got this in my inbox BTW.

"Undertones of nationalism through the racing weekend ultimately proved discordant for the British, who saw one of their champions beaten on home soil and another chastened on his return to a foreign field. Michael Owen's Brown Panther could not justify his billing as favourite for the German Derby yesterday, while the colt who won the Epsom original last year, Workforce, had succumbed to So You Think, the Australian import, at Sandown the previous afternoon.


Nowadays stabled with Aidan O'Brien in Co Tipperary, So You Think may yet be sent "home" in search of a third success in the Cox Plate this autumn, provided quarantine issues can be resolved. If so, there would be an irresistibly piquant subplot, his former trainer having allowed resentment of his sale and export to fuel some trenchant observations about his new environment. To beat Bart Cummings and company in their own backyard would be especially sweet for O'Brien, who seems to have an inadvertent knack for winding up Australians.

When Cummings won the Melbourne Cup for a 12th time, in 2008, O'Brien saddled three of the last four finishers. Seated at his dinner table in a city hotel, he was astonished and incensed to be summoned back to the track for a stewards' inquest into the tactics used on his runners. In the event, they took no action, but local press and professionals savaged the Ballydoyle jockeys for forcing a reckless pace between them. A former senior steward declared that Johnny Murtagh "obviously had a brain explosion" and should be "ashamed" of his performance. Cummings himself could not resist a dig. "They must believe their own publicity," he said. "I can't believe what they did."

The outspoken octogenarian may well have admitted a corresponding sense of schadenfreude, then, after So You Think's odds-on defeat at Royal Ascot last month. For all his success, including with previous imports in Haradasun and Starspangledbanner, O'Brien will never be as respected or cherished as Cummings in Australia. And there was renewed derision for Ballydoyle's tactics after O'Brien's teenage son had a rather chastening experience on the pacemaker at Ascot. Characteristically, however, the harshest criticism was that reserved by O'Brien for his own role.

He immediately suggested that he had miscalculated the volume of work required to bring So You Think to his peak, and appeared to be vindicated in that judgement on Saturday. The notion that a gruelling race at Ascot could "put him right" for Sandown would ordinarily sound quite outlandish, but So You Think palpably sustained an unflinching charge at Workforce through the final two furlongs.

It was gratifying to see the race play out so consistently with its billing as a showdown between two of the best thoroughbreds from either side of the Equator. They had certainly looked the part beforehand. So You Think is so physically intimidating that the process of dominating his rivals begins long before he starts extending that vast stride out on the track. And Workforce, his brawny shoulders rolling, has developed into a captivating composite of solid bulk and liquid movement.

The race was set up perfectly by Jimmy Fortune, who showed exactly how a pacemaker should be ridden on Confront. Aside from pulling wide as Ryan Moore struck for home – fully three furlongs out, in an effort to bring his mount's stamina to bear – Fortune further obliged Workforce by hemming Seamus Heffernan against the rail for as long as he could. As a result, So You Think had to get through the gears fairly hastily, and the final margin of half a length does inadequate justice to the authority of his inexorable challenge.

Heffernan coolly resisted any temptation to force his way out and deserves to retain the ride, regardless of Moore's availability next time. Workforce was by no means diminished by defeat, and connections are entitled to hope that he could yet embellish his stud profile with a Group One success over 10 furlongs, but their priority will be the defence of the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in October."

So You Think had to get through the gears fairly hastily, and the final margin of half a length does inadequate justice to the authority of his inexorable challenge

Seems fair enough apart from this extract, SYT had a clear run from about 2 and a half furlongs out.

I know that Figgis, whose opinions I respect greatly, doesn't care for "yardstick" ratings.

However if, as many on here have stated, he lacked fitness at Ascot where in any case the race was run to suit Rewilding and not SYT I can't get my head round the fact that his margin over the ultra-reliable Sri Putra increased by a mere half length.

This is not to say that I don't rate SYT. I see him as a very good horse, a true high 120's performer. But no more.

You are placing too much emphasis on Sri Putra. It is, in my opinion, lazy analysis to accept that because the distances were the same in both races, that So You Think is only 6lbs better Sri Putra (or whatever a pound equates to in lengths over 1m 2f). Look at how So You Think finishes both races and convince me then that he was not better in the Eclipse.

As I always remind myself, horses are not robots, and there is no science behind the results of a race. If there was, everything would be quite easy. The reason the above poster can't get his round around the margins is because in his head, everything must be explained in numbers? Is that correct Dark Destroyer? Unfortunetely, that is never going to be the case.

I was probably going to say something cringeworthy but you summed it up better than i was going to.

SYT has a nice run from a while out but it's not until he pulls out at 1 1/2 furlongs that he actually hits his stride.

Also, the commentators after the race said winning margins are almost always less at sandown (or at least in the eclipse, I forget). Now I have no knowledge of UK racing, but presumably these guys know as much as anyone on here in terms observing that specific thing.

So perhaps that should be taken into account when quoting sri putra.

Sri Putra is capable of very decent form and is a good yardstick IMO

So anyone crabbing a formline involving him is off the mark.

Given the apparent (lack of) ratings skills of some people more than likely this thread should of been called the "I took the 2/1 on Workforce and bloody lost" thread. [;)]

I would call it the "if Sri Putra's performance doesn't fit in with my non-objective view of SYT just
Ignore him" thread.

I dont think I even saw the Karma Sutra's horse or whatever strange name its called, I admit I dont realy take much notice of third fourth or fifth placegetters in 5 horse races.

My view on ratings are that they are handy on a 6 month to yearly basis but not so much on a race to race basis for getting the true picture of a horse, afterall you are trying to apply a black and white formula to the grey area of a horse race.

Dark Destroyer
I can see your point about Sri Putra, but my pre race views about SYT were that he was unlikely to better his POW run, so it's not just a case of making things fit with preconcieved ideas. It's not that unusual for a 5yo to run a few pounds better than it has before and it was only his third run of the season.

*preconceived

No worries.

At least we're getting some interesting perspectives on here !

You have a choice if you want to raise So You Think to a rating of 132 you have to assume Work Force has ran a career high over a trip probably short of his best and faster ground than ideal. You also have to assume Sri Putra ran to a career high and had improved by 4lb from his Ascot run.

Or you can leave So you think on a mark of 129 with Sri Putra improving from Ascot by a pound matching his careeer high and Work Force running slightly below his best with conditions not ideal.

I think the latter is more likely

I keep reading a lot about the trip being too short for Workforce and the ground too fast, but there is no real evidence of either.

I think Workforce being left in front way too early was a bigger factor in his getting beat, he broke the track record in the derby on fast ground ... maybe the combination of fast ground and shorter trip where the first half of the race wasn't fast enough for him all added up to a slightly under par performance.

To be fair Workforce ran a cracking race and looked more composed that SYT as well IMO, its just not his ideal distance, and given SYT got done in the POW they most likely gambled that Workforce would roll SYT in the Eclipse and enhance Workforces appeal and rep.

If SYT had won the POW I highly doubt Workforce would of started yesterday. I see most people are saying workforce wont go the KG V1, so you have to assume they are doing a slow build up to peak for the Arc.

Having said that SYT has run out two miles before, so im still dubious that workforce has it over him at 12f plus, but thats the general concensus.

As to the ground, yes he won an Arc on soft ground but was an all out head victory over Nakayama Festa, in receipt of the 8lbs wfa allowance, much superior to all his other pieces of form? Not as far as I'm concerned it wasn't.

This debate demonstrates why bookmakers love horseracing. There is as much difference of opinion after the event as there is before the race.

The times on Saturday need to be interpreted in the context of a fats run (for the mark) by Cool Macavity over 10f and the incredibly fast time for Highland Knight over 8f. If we are to believe that the Eclipse was run to the level that TS indicates for the Eclipse then HK improved 15lb in conditions which he has experienced before and now on his 13th run supposedly ran 15lb better than his OR. I don't buy it and therefore I don't buy the times for the Eclipse.In which case I certainly do not buy the RR's given.

Using the sectionals and allowing for Sandowns stiff finish I would say that the Eclipse was run in near even time suggesting that both horses are as good if not better at 12f. I do believe that WF is possibly bewtter on softer ground and expected improvement from him at Longchamp where he did indeed improve. Having said that, Isee no reason why SYT isn't as good on it either. Imo there isn't much between them.They will both show  themselves to be better than on Saturday and imo the 132 rating given is a nonsense for that performance but not necessarily for either horse when at their absolute best.

Sandown
I don't understand at all your point about the Cool Macavity race, it was nearly 4 secs slower than the Eclipse resulting in a time rating that wouldn't even win an average claimer, on my scale. Point taken about the Highland Knight race, but personally I gave up on a uniform allowance encapsulating all races on a card a few years ago. There are many many instances of one race being out of kilter with the rest.

Also, as the 1m and 1m2f distances have different starting points slightly away from the main track, it's not rare for them to require different allowances occasionally.

Figgis

I prefer to work to a conservative figure i.e one which doen't credit a handicapper with an improvement in time rating over its handicap mark until future performaances verify that he ran above that mark. given that, I can't rate the Eclipse figure for SYT higher than 120, same as TS.

As for different allowances over the same course but from different start points, well I don't believe that degree of precision is possible. You end up making the figures fit a preconceived idea.

Sandown

Fair enough. I can't have it that the whole card (5f obviously excepted) works off the Highland Knight allowance, though, as all the other races become absurdly slow. There are countless other examples like that during a season but I believe it's possible to work things out with experience. I know some sectional time enthusiasts will put this down purely to variations in pace, however, while I agree that overall times are obviously sensitive to early pace, I don't believe everything else was run at a crawl, or a too fast early pace collapse. Each to their own though.

i thought SYT was very impressive in the end on saturday....he's won it cosy for me in the end, the proximity of the 2nd horse owes more to the fact that it took a good deal of time for hefferman to get the horse sorted and running for him....which once he did he picked workforce up easily enough...very impressive.

beating snow fairy half a length doesn't constitute top-class form.

still no evidence in europe this horse is a superstar.

You make a good point IMO, hes simply not as good under O'Brien as he was when in Australia IMHO.

Now watch the $hit storm start!

O'Brien constantly tries to talk this horse up, as he does all of Coolmore's horses. Rewilding beat him fair and square at R.Ascot and even then he had his ready-made excuse lined up about him being under-cooked. He's an average G1 winner at 10f at best. Would not know which way the likes of Sea The Stars and Frankel went if he came up against that calibre of horse over 10f.
He's followed the Oz example of crowing about sporting greatness; and their exact same example of bleating as soon as they are beat.

He is a very good genuine Group 1 horse, but no superstar - if the Sea The Stars that won the race 2 years ago had been in that race he'd have won cosily by 2-3 lengths. Physically So You Think is s good a looker as I've seen - very big but well proportioned.

"Rewilding beat him fair and square at R.Ascot"

I have to respond to that, IMO SYT did nothing wrong in this race, it was the combination of O'Brien, Obrien Jnr and Moore the jockey all completey stuffing up in the most amateur of ways.

It realy was the epitamy of a muppet show, lets not forget Frankie also cheated with the whip as well.

It was quite frankly a disgrace all round which only proves my previous point.

So You Think's form since coming under the care of Aidan O'Brien is 11211. That includes three wins in Group Ones, a second in another one and a 10 length win in a Group 3. The horse's campaigns in Australia lasted two months - ForceMajeure clearly failes to recognise this and thinks So You Think should win every Group One he competes as he did the 2010 Cox Plate or 2010 Mackinnon. Unfortuntely that is not going to be case in normal circumstances, and in particular when you're racing from the 2nd of May to possibly near the end of November, it's going to be near impossible. Add in the fact that the races in Europe are stronger than the others in Australia.

Of course, ForceMajuere will have no answer to the above paragraph just like all the questions that are asked of him on this forum - except to repeat the same old drivel that he has been writing up until now. 

Unclepuncle - I am a massive fan of So You Think and though I think Sea The Stars is the greatest I've seen, I think you are being harsh on So You Think too: There is only one horse in the whole of Europe that has dominated a distance like So You Think has his in 2011 - Frankel. That kind of shows the rarity of SYT's achievements thus far in 2011. And maybe we have different definitions of 'superstar' but any horse who wins three Group Ones in a season is certainly close to superstar status in my opinion. And I've no doubt there's more to come - possibly in the Arc. A very, very good racehorse and a win at Longchamp will elevate him to greatness.

rarity of SYT's achievements??? 53 horses have won 3 Group 1's or more in a season since 2000 and I bet virtually all of them have beaten more than 8 non-stable mate opponents in doing so as well, of those 8 only 3 have ever won a Group 1 themselves, only 1 has ever won a 10f Group 1 and not one has won a Group 1 this season at any distance.  The only time he's faced an opponent except a stable-mate who had won/ subsequently won a Group 1 this season was in The POW stakes at Ascot

53 is bigger than I thought but I wouldn't have included fillies or 2yos in my own mind so that might bring the total down a bit. Plus are these European trained racehorses? Maybe you could post them all? It also means that on average 4.4 racehorses win 3 or more Group Ones every year so at worst So You Think would make a top 4.4 racheorses in Europe on average ever year. Are you saying he is not top 4.4?

It is also not So You Think's fault that most racehorses are afraid to take him on...in relation to your last statement, what Group 1 winners this season would you like to have seen him beat? Frankel, Twice Over, Midday have not taken him on....which is hardly the So You Think's fault. Canford Cliffs and Rewilding are retired and passed away respectively. So your last comment is a bit of a fallacy - when you read into it a bit.

Anyway, I do not wish to get into a debate about this. The horse is very good and whatever doubters exist, they will always produce arguments like the one above. I am not sure what it would take to convince you otherwise grendal, but it's doubtful my words will change your understated view of this racehorse.

i wouldnt like to lay snow fairy winning a group 1 this season.

As requested SYT:-

Albanova,Alexandrova,Attraction,Bago,Black Caviar,Blue Bunting,Canford Cliffs,Crimplene,Dalakhani,Dancing Rain,Darjina,Divine Proportions,Duke Of Marmalade,Dylan Thomas,Falbrav,Fantastic Light,Frankel,Galileo,Giant's Causeway,Goldikova,Grandera,Halfway To Heaven,Henrythenavigator,Johannesburg,Kutub,Lush Lashes,Mandesha,Manduro,Marchand D'Or,Marienbard,Midday,Montjeu,New Approach,Peeping Fawn,Petrushka,Pride,Ramonti,Rewilding,Rock Of Gibraltar,Rocket Man,Russian Rhythm,Sacred Kingdom,Schiaparelli,Sea The Stars,Shamardal,Sinndar,Snow Fairy,So You Think,Soviet Song,Stacelita,Star Witness,Vision D'Etat,Zarkava.

People get irritated at the Coolmore hype over this horse. O'Brien after the Rogers Gold Cup:

"He's incredible - a different creature to what we've ever seen before and we're just very lucky to have him racing on this side of the world this year."

"He'd have no problem running in a Group 1 over a mile."


Well technically Aiden's right and he is different - but then so is every horse. And he would indeed have no problem running in a mile G1 - but winning it might be a different matter.

He beat famous name by 6 1/2 lengths, famous name is rated 117. What would that make SYT (if you ignored the snow fairy run)?

The betting market probably has overrated him since he came over here. 4/11 for the POW was a staggering
price considering he was facing multiple GRP 1 winners Twice over, Planteur and Rewilding. His price
for the Eclipse and Irish Champion also looked on the short side.
I really like this horse though , he's a very difficult horse to beat, has a strong constitution that
could withstand a lot of racing, is courageous, has some pace, travels well and is a very willing
competiter. He's got everything you need to win a fast ground Arc. The problem is that if they do wait
to see what the ground looks like being and its fast then again he's likely to be underpriced.
If the ground is g/s or softer then it all becomes murkier.
This horse has the constitution to run in the ARc ,champions stakes and Breeders cup: not many could do that.

The original statement was 'so you think overrated'. And goes on to say'clearly workforce is better at 1m4f, so it follows that he wasn't at his best yesterday'. The danger with that is IF SYT stays 1m4f then he could well have the measure of workforce again. I can't find the quote but read somewhere that the previous trainer of SYT was asked to comment on Saturdays performance & mumbled the word 'fat'. My worry for you all is that SYT is not yet fully fit & IF he turns up for the Arc there will be a fair few sheepish people about. I'm happy for myself as I'm well 'topped up' & am still chipping away at the 6-1 on here. Of course he may well not run given the investment & danger. But if he does I suspect he'll have the measure of them all. I'm prepared for the backlash & this is simply my opinion of which we are all entitled to. I just think this horse oozes Class & whilst he might not be everything they claim he more than often does enough.

Grendel is their a site your getting them from? Some great memories going through your list there.

Thank you for the list Grendel but it might need refining. E.g. Star Witness and Black Caviar are included but other Australians such as Apache Cat and Weekend Hussler aren't? I think if you take out the former two, you have all European trained racehorses who won three or more Group Ones in one season? But then there's the likes of Ouija Board won 3 Group Ones in 2004 and 2006, and Snow Fairy last year but I presume it's because their third win came in USA and Japan respectively that they have not been included?

Mr Mischief, I just used Raceform Interactive and Excel to come up with the list
SoYouThink ... I searched 'GROUP 1' whereas USA and Japan is listed in R.I. as 'GRADE 1'

tommyjoe, I wouldn't interpret the form that strictly as the pace of the race was fast early and they slowed down to a slow overall time for the class of race and this didn't suit Famous Name, a more even paced contest would have seen him a lot closer

so at worst So You Think would make a top 4.4 racheorses in Europe on average ever year. Are you saying he is not top 4.4?

I would certainly say he is . Frankel,Canford Cliffs and Goldikova being superior.

At Middle Distance i would have him Number 1 this year.

But still that means he seems to have been overated .Becuase the way Coolmore and their followers and some Aussies have talked him up he was supposed to be in the top 0.7 of horses you would see in Europe in an average year! We were told he was one of the best we would see in our lifetimes, not one of the 3 or 4 best of an average year.

Of course if had a spectacular victory in The Arc or Breeder's Cup Classic or beat Frankel then we would be obliged to revise our opinions dramatically .I would be happy yo do so, never mind admitting i'm wrong. But until that happens i'd prefer to rate him on what i've seen him do rather than on what people say he might be able to do.

Pour Moi would have laughed at him in the Arc.

Thank you for that contribution Platini.

IF he goes there & IF he's fully fit I think he wins. He appears to be doing just enough each time & I suspect there's always something left 'in the tank'. Somebody posted 'Snow Fairy was catching him at the line'. Well to me it looked as though he could have kept on bowling along for some time. Only my opinion but I have 'backed it up'.

We should start the "Aiden O'Brien is overrated" thread now.

This horse has no chance in the ARC everyone of his runs suggests anything much more than 10f will be stretching him big time, in the Arc he'll be meeting the cream and will be left for dead when the taps are turned on, anyone who thinks he's just doing enough are deluding themselves.

Keep your money in your pocket or lay this horse till the cows come home if you have the funds?.

I'd advise the previous poster watches last years Melbourne Cup again (top weight on bottomless ground) and then tell me SYT doesn't stay further than 10f.

An honest opinion SG and should you turn out to be correct I will eat humble pie and have slightly lighter pockets. Blue Bunting on Sat was a reminder of how strong belief can go horribly wrong. In SYTs defence he did run well in the Melourne cup some of the comments in running 'close up 4f out, led 1.5f out, headed final 110yds unable to quicken lost second in the final 50yds'. That over 2 miles & not against 'the cream' as you state. Having said that the winner was rated 125 the 2nd 119 & 4th 126. That doesn't sound like a horse who doesn't stay beyond 10f to me. He had also won a G1 3 yes 3 days earlier, the point I'm really trying to make is that SYT is a unique horse & may well surprise even you SG.

SYT is only marginally "Over-rated"

Workforce has clearly been half a stone below his best this year and the time at Ascot was v poor...

The Handicappers have been blinkered and refused to admit this... so they have raised SYT and Nathaniel to heights that are not warranted.

SYT is probably a 124-126 horse OVERALL. THAT's a very decent animal... and on his day at 10f in Europe he's probably a pound or two better over 10f. He would NOT win in Europe over a mile against any NUMBER of European Grp 1 milers - Goldikova at her peak wld have sat back and out-kicked him, likewise Canford, Excelebration wld do it from the front and Frankel - well forget it... SYT wld not get within 5L of him over 7-9f... BUT he remains, in the absense of Pour Moi, probably the best 10f horse in Europe - and wld be in the US also if they hop over there... I say PROBABLY because the three yr olds will probably never race him over 10f morese the pity - I would have LOVED to see Reliable Man or Pour Moi or even Frankel have taken him on, but he'll be gone next yr when they risk it and PM is already gone... NO... it's the HYPE and MARKETING that has been overdone... he's the victor ludorum atm, very decent at a number of distances but he's no superstar at any of them... Black Caviar @ 6f, Excelerbration @ 7f, Frankel @ 8f, Reliable Man, Workforce (IF THE REAL Wf turns up ever again) @ 12f... and if he meets Snow Fairy on faster ground with a stronger jock closer to the pace over 12f, perhaps even 10f, SHE'll beat him...

CANNOT SEE HIM WINNING THE ARC IN A MONTH OF SUNDAYS AND STILL DO NOT BELIEVE HE'LL RUN - I'm pretty sure they'll go Qipco Champion/Breeders Cup route and it would be a much more profitable one as well AND he's brute enough - like Pilsudski was - to go on to Hk/Japan afterwards and stuff them as well...