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All over Canford Cliffs for this. He beat Goldikova nicely last time out and should have too much for Frankel who has had 2 very tough races this year. EVS a fair price.
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Will prob only end up being Canford, Frankel, Dick Turpin and a few rags racing for the prize money.
Comes as no surprise Tom Quealy is being tight lipped about how Frankel will be ridden after the rubbish written about him. Most of which is written by geniuses with full ashtrays and half empty cans of McEwans lager who of course know more about what makes a good jockey than Sir Henry Cecil does.
Richard Hughes said of Canford Cliffs after he almost pulled him into orbit at Goodwood as a 2 year old "He's a freak"
All associated with Frankel say "He's a Freak"
The big difference is Canford Cliffs has grown out of those tearaway antics and is now developed into a gentleman of a horse.
Frankel on the other hand has been encourage to do mad impulsive things like take off like Overdose and sustain the gallop for a mile.
Basically Henry and Tom Queally need to get their act together there is no denying that but Henry has been round a long time and you can bet your life he and Tom Queally now realise "he is not Pegasus" and they will have a plan that Tom will carry out to the letter.
IMO:- To win Frankel has to be settled and it doesn't matter whether he does so behind or in front.
As long s he's traveling well within himself and and they reserve that explosive speed until just inside the 2 furlongs marker he should win.
The fact he is getting weight and is physically mature beyond his years is a huge plus. Add to that Canford Cliffs takes just that few strides more to get into full flight the combination should swing things in Frankel's favour.
That said if Canford Clifs proves superior it won't be the biggest surprise I've ever had.
Richard Hughes said of Canford Cliffs after he almost pulled him into orbit at Goodwood as a 2 year old "He's a freak"
All associated with Frankel say "He's a Freak"
The big difference is Canford Cliffs has grown out of those tearaway antics and is now developed into a gentleman of a horse.
Frankel on the other hand has been encourage to do mad impulsive things like take off like Overdose and sustain the gallop for a mile.
Basically Henry and Tom Queally need to get their act together there is no denying that but Henry has been round a long time and you can bet your life he and Tom Queally now realise "he is not Pegasus" and they will have a plan that Tom will carry out to the letter.
IMO:- To win Frankel has to be settled and it doesn't matter whether he does so behind or in front.
As long s he's traveling well within himself and and they reserve that explosive speed until just inside the 2 furlongs marker he should win.
The fact he is getting weight and is physically mature beyond his years is a huge plus. Add to that Canford Cliffs takes just that few strides more to get into full flight the combination should swing things in Frankel's favour.
That said if Canford Clifs proves superior it won't be the biggest surprise I've ever had.
only two runners? can anyone shed some light on other probable runners..
once the ground is good or better CC wins this. i even think frankel will set it up for him with queally kicking for home too early again.
For me Frankel has to at least produce his Guineas performance,which may or may not be good enough,and he must not run like he did at Ascot.He needs to settle and conserve speed for the finish,neither is by any means guaranteed.
Canford will run his usual race,no doubts in my mind he will.
If i were backing at the prices it would have to be CC,too many doubts for me to back Frankel at the likely price.
Having said that,i probably will just watch,imo its one of those races where one could be proved horribly wrong-whatever opinion you have,and at the likely prices i dont think i would be willing to risk it.
Canford will run his usual race,no doubts in my mind he will.
If i were backing at the prices it would have to be CC,too many doubts for me to back Frankel at the likely price.
Having said that,i probably will just watch,imo its one of those races where one could be proved horribly wrong-whatever opinion you have,and at the likely prices i dont think i would be willing to risk it.
I would be a little worried about the ground for Canford Cliffs. I can see the ground being no better than good with all the rain forecast in the next week. I think if the ground was softer than good then it moves things very much in Frankels favour. While both prefer a better surface, Frankel was very good at Ascot & in the Dewhurst on ground worse than good. Overall despite being a big fan of Canford Cliffs I think Frankel if ridden in a different way may just show how special he is
Hannon getting a bit desperate with his comments on the RP website regarding his view that he's surprised that Henry Cecil doesn't drop Frankel back to 7 furlongs given the way he ran in the St Jamess Palace Stakes.
I wonder if there was a view by both trainers that the other trainer would withdraw from the race to avoid defeat, how much stud value would each horse lose by losing this clash.
I don't think it would take much time to decide not to run Canford Cliffs if 'soft' appeared anywhere in the going description, he already voiced concerns about it pre Queen Anne
I wonder if there was a view by both trainers that the other trainer would withdraw from the race to avoid defeat, how much stud value would each horse lose by losing this clash.
I don't think it would take much time to decide not to run Canford Cliffs if 'soft' appeared anywhere in the going description, he already voiced concerns about it pre Queen Anne
If the ground came up real soft then there has to be a chance both will get beat, having got stuck in the mud.
That old dog Dick turpin could have his day in the rain.
I hope the ground is decent as it will spoil the race if its soft and there has to be a possiblity if it gets too soft
Frankel won't run and be saved for the Juddmonte.
That old dog Dick turpin could have his day in the rain.
I hope the ground is decent as it will spoil the race if its soft and there has to be a possiblity if it gets too soft
Frankel won't run and be saved for the Juddmonte.
Hannon is also on record as saying Canford Cliffs won't run if its like a road, unlikely but he's concerned about the downhill dip which Hannon says he also didn't like at Newmarket as well as in the sussex last year although winning.
Hannon getting his excuses in early. It is slowly dawning on him what a task he has to beat the mighty Frankel.
I imagine if conditions are right then both horses will run.Certainly cannot believe Hannon would pull CC out cos he is scared of Frankel,given the proven form of CC.
Going over 7 furlongs seems reasonable opinion given Frankels last run.
Going over 7 furlongs seems reasonable opinion given Frankels last run.
RP
R HANNON has expressed his surprise that Frankel is not dropping down in trip rather than taking on his Canford Cliffs in the Group 1 Qipco Sussex Stakes over a mile at Glorious Goodwood on July 27.
Hannon said: "I thought Frankel may go back to seven furlongs after the way he finished at Ascot in the St James's Palace Stakes but Henry [Cecil] knows exactly what he is doing and his record speaks for itself.
SpLife
Richard Hughes feels the likely small field in the QIPCO Sussex Stakes will be against Frankel.
Richard Hannon's stable-jockey partners Canford Cliffs against the 2000 Guineas winner in the 'Duel On The Downs' and feels a tactical affair will suit his partner better.
"The good thing is my lad is easy and I imagine with only a few runners there won't be much pace at Goodwood which means Frankel will run free," he predicted.
"I would not be surprised if Tom (Queally on Frankel) made the running with only four or so runners - if he drops in, we won't go fast. The start is downhill as well.
"Frankel settled very well at Ascot when we were going a million up the hill - I was on Dubawi Gold, sitting second, and I could not have gone an inch faster, off the bridle. That is why Frankel settled so well at Ascot but, if he was going slow, then he would be keen. If we go slow, he will be free. "
Hughes admits the showdown on Wednesday week is a race he is relishing.
"I cannot wait for the Sussex Stakes. I am looking forward to it just as much as the race against Goldikova at Royal Ascot - we got that job done.
"Canford Cliffs is the best I have ever ridden - I have ridden some good horses in my career but the first time I sat on this lad, I had never ridden anything like him.
"I think Frankel is a brilliant three-year-old - no doubt. I don't think the three-year-olds are brilliant as a whole but he is probably one of the best three-year-olds we have seen for a long time which is why he has stood out.
Hughes feels his partner is still on the upgrade and has few fears over the forecast rain before the meeting.
"Canford Cliffs looks better than ever. I think he is a little bit like Sea The Stars - he will just do what he has to do. He will go by whatever is in front of him. No matter what you follow, he will go by it - you feel he will go by anything. He travelled so easy at Royal Ascot," Hughes said.
"He won a maiden on soft ground - I think he would cope with that ground - most champions do.
"You would like to think that both horses are healthy on the day and there are no excuses - head to head at the furlong pole would be nice to see and then the best horse will win."
Strikes me that the connections of CC are playing mind games early, trying to influence the way they want Frankel to run next week. If they had the nerve to do it, I would hold Frankel up in last place next week, provided he settles, and stalk CC down the straight at Goodwood then we will see who has the better turn of foot. Hughes will want to be the last off the bridle, would be interesting to see Queally play his hand very late.
R HANNON has expressed his surprise that Frankel is not dropping down in trip rather than taking on his Canford Cliffs in the Group 1 Qipco Sussex Stakes over a mile at Glorious Goodwood on July 27.
Hannon said: "I thought Frankel may go back to seven furlongs after the way he finished at Ascot in the St James's Palace Stakes but Henry [Cecil] knows exactly what he is doing and his record speaks for itself.
SpLife
Richard Hughes feels the likely small field in the QIPCO Sussex Stakes will be against Frankel.
Richard Hannon's stable-jockey partners Canford Cliffs against the 2000 Guineas winner in the 'Duel On The Downs' and feels a tactical affair will suit his partner better.
"The good thing is my lad is easy and I imagine with only a few runners there won't be much pace at Goodwood which means Frankel will run free," he predicted.
"I would not be surprised if Tom (Queally on Frankel) made the running with only four or so runners - if he drops in, we won't go fast. The start is downhill as well.
"Frankel settled very well at Ascot when we were going a million up the hill - I was on Dubawi Gold, sitting second, and I could not have gone an inch faster, off the bridle. That is why Frankel settled so well at Ascot but, if he was going slow, then he would be keen. If we go slow, he will be free. "
Hughes admits the showdown on Wednesday week is a race he is relishing.
"I cannot wait for the Sussex Stakes. I am looking forward to it just as much as the race against Goldikova at Royal Ascot - we got that job done.
"Canford Cliffs is the best I have ever ridden - I have ridden some good horses in my career but the first time I sat on this lad, I had never ridden anything like him.
"I think Frankel is a brilliant three-year-old - no doubt. I don't think the three-year-olds are brilliant as a whole but he is probably one of the best three-year-olds we have seen for a long time which is why he has stood out.
Hughes feels his partner is still on the upgrade and has few fears over the forecast rain before the meeting.
"Canford Cliffs looks better than ever. I think he is a little bit like Sea The Stars - he will just do what he has to do. He will go by whatever is in front of him. No matter what you follow, he will go by it - you feel he will go by anything. He travelled so easy at Royal Ascot," Hughes said.
"He won a maiden on soft ground - I think he would cope with that ground - most champions do.
"You would like to think that both horses are healthy on the day and there are no excuses - head to head at the furlong pole would be nice to see and then the best horse will win."
Strikes me that the connections of CC are playing mind games early, trying to influence the way they want Frankel to run next week. If they had the nerve to do it, I would hold Frankel up in last place next week, provided he settles, and stalk CC down the straight at Goodwood then we will see who has the better turn of foot. Hughes will want to be the last off the bridle, would be interesting to see Queally play his hand very late.
Not sure holding Frankel up in a 4 horse race against Canford would be wise, they would want the race to be run at a true pace to benefit fully from the 8lb wfa allowance. Frankel is fundamentally a better horse based on speed figures than Canford so as long as he doesn't go for home before halfway and not later than 2½ out, I can't see Canford living with him.
Also with regards to a small field size, the only two times Canford was in small fields of less than 7 runners he got beat, Frankel has won 4 races with less than 7 runners.
Also with regards to a small field size, the only two times Canford was in small fields of less than 7 runners he got beat, Frankel has won 4 races with less than 7 runners.
Main difference there is the quality of opposition both have faced i would think.
If they try to hold Frankel up i agree with you that would not be wise,but from what i have seen from Frankel this season,i think it unlikely he will settle sufficiently for that to happen with success.They will try and get Frankel settled in front imo,and if they can do that we are in for a great race,with the best horse on the day prevailing,cos that would suit Canford as well.
Just hope the ground is right for both horses.
If they try to hold Frankel up i agree with you that would not be wise,but from what i have seen from Frankel this season,i think it unlikely he will settle sufficiently for that to happen with success.They will try and get Frankel settled in front imo,and if they can do that we are in for a great race,with the best horse on the day prevailing,cos that would suit Canford as well.
Just hope the ground is right for both horses.
Well Frankel won both the 5-runner Royal Lodge and 7-runner Dewhurst coming from last place so I don't see that as a problem next week, provided he doesn't pull for his head early doors. If anything these tactics should allow them to get first run on CC because we know Hughes wants to be sitting with his @rse in the air until the last possible moment.
I think CC is far more one dimensional in his tactics than Frankel and the former's connections are trying to infer that Frankel will only be able settle in front next week to make their job easier. Frankel as we know can win from the front, the middle or the back as demonstrated in his juvenile career and the reality is that the Hannon camp will not know until the stalls open how the race will unfold.
I think CC is far more one dimensional in his tactics than Frankel and the former's connections are trying to infer that Frankel will only be able settle in front next week to make their job easier. Frankel as we know can win from the front, the middle or the back as demonstrated in his juvenile career and the reality is that the Hannon camp will not know until the stalls open how the race will unfold.
Different kettle of fish this for Frankel.
As you say CC has one way of running,why change anyway when its so effective.
None of us will know till the stalls open how the race will unfold,i suspect Cecil & co amongst them.The Cecil camp may have an advantage in that they know how CC will run,but is their horse good enough?? We shall find out-hopefully!!
All i hope is that both horses perform as best they can,and at the end we can celebrate a great race and a great winner,whoever that may be.
As you say CC has one way of running,why change anyway when its so effective.
None of us will know till the stalls open how the race will unfold,i suspect Cecil & co amongst them.The Cecil camp may have an advantage in that they know how CC will run,but is their horse good enough?? We shall find out-hopefully!!
All i hope is that both horses perform as best they can,and at the end we can celebrate a great race and a great winner,whoever that may be.
If this would be of level weights I'd have CC but given the allowance Frakel is getting I can't see CC beating him.
your absolutley correct PFtrader. Frankels turn of foot is instance and as such he wont bother him how the race is run. He stays the trip standing on his head and he has enough speed to win over 6f.
As for the issue of settling .. something that went largely unnoticed at Ascot due to Tom Quelly kicking for home early, was the fact that before Frankel was asked to sprint, he was actually settled nicely and not pulling one bit. Immediately after the race Henry Cecil sadi '' we now know we can ride him differently''.
Dont be surprised if Frankel is held up for a turn of foot!
As for the issue of settling .. something that went largely unnoticed at Ascot due to Tom Quelly kicking for home early, was the fact that before Frankel was asked to sprint, he was actually settled nicely and not pulling one bit. Immediately after the race Henry Cecil sadi '' we now know we can ride him differently''.
Dont be surprised if Frankel is held up for a turn of foot!
Ironically the tactics Queally used in the Guineas and certainly at Ascot would be fine at Goodwood.
Theres no steep finish at Goodwood to slow him down and he could kick on 3f out and shoot well clear
,the sectionals he'd then be able to clock for the last 3f would give CC no chance of reeling him in.
If he's drawn aganist the rail and they elect to hold him up , Hughes could box him in on the rail
deliberately not letting go of CC until the last minute.
Queally would be best doing what he did at Ascot, instead he may switch to a new tactic which in this
race may not be suitable.
All the above is not that relevant if the ground comes up soft which given its G/s now is very possible.
Theres no steep finish at Goodwood to slow him down and he could kick on 3f out and shoot well clear
,the sectionals he'd then be able to clock for the last 3f would give CC no chance of reeling him in.
If he's drawn aganist the rail and they elect to hold him up , Hughes could box him in on the rail
deliberately not letting go of CC until the last minute.
Queally would be best doing what he did at Ascot, instead he may switch to a new tactic which in this
race may not be suitable.
All the above is not that relevant if the ground comes up soft which given its G/s now is very possible.
I think the tactics should be a long protracted run for home from halfway for Frankel, Canford will have to make his move much earlier than he has before and will not get any cover that he obviously needs, on ground softer than he's ever experienced, carrying more weight than he's ever carried against the most talented miler for decades.
tinkler
If the ground came up real soft then there has to be a chance both will get beat, having got stuck in the mud.
That old dog Dick turpin could have his day in the rain.
____
interesting tinkler, i was also thinking the same yesterday... will have a small punt on dick turpin
If the ground came up real soft then there has to be a chance both will get beat, having got stuck in the mud.
That old dog Dick turpin could have his day in the rain.
____
interesting tinkler, i was also thinking the same yesterday... will have a small punt on dick turpin
Richard Hughes feels the likely small field in the QIPCO Sussex Stakes will be against Frankel.
Richard Hannon's stable-jockey partners Canford Cliffs against the 2000 Guineas winner in the 'Duel On The Downs' and feels a tactical affair will suit his partner better.
"The good thing is my lad is easy and I imagine with only a few runners there won't be much pace at Goodwood which means Frankel will run free," he predicted.
"I would not be surprised if Tom (Queally on Frankel) made the running with only four or so runners - if he drops in, we won't go fast. The start is downhill as well.
"Frankel settled very well at Ascot when we were going a million up the hill - I was on Dubawi Gold, sitting second, and I could not have gone an inch faster, off the bridle. That is why Frankel settled so well at Ascot but, if he was going slow, then he would be keen. If we go slow, he will be free. "
Hughes admits the showdown on Wednesday week is a race he is relishing.
"I cannot wait for the Sussex Stakes. I am looking forward to it just as much as the race against Goldikova at Royal Ascot - we got that job done.
"Canford Cliffs is the best I have ever ridden - I have ridden some good horses in my career but the first time I sat on this lad, I had never ridden anything like him.
"I think Frankel is a brilliant three-year-old - no doubt. I don't think the three-year-olds are brilliant as a whole but he is probably one of the best three-year-olds we have seen for a long time which is why he has stood out.
Hughes feels his partner is still on the upgrade and has few fears over the forecast rain before the meeting.
"Canford Cliffs looks better than ever. I think he is a little bit like Sea The Stars - he will just do what he has to do. He will go by whatever is in front of him. No matter what you follow, he will go by it - you feel he will go by anything. He travelled so easy at Royal Ascot," Hughes said.
"He won a maiden on soft ground - I think he would cope with that ground - most champions do.
"You would like to think that both horses are healthy on the day and there are no excuses - head to head at the furlong pole would be nice to see and then the best horse will win."
Richard Hannon's stable-jockey partners Canford Cliffs against the 2000 Guineas winner in the 'Duel On The Downs' and feels a tactical affair will suit his partner better.
"The good thing is my lad is easy and I imagine with only a few runners there won't be much pace at Goodwood which means Frankel will run free," he predicted.
"I would not be surprised if Tom (Queally on Frankel) made the running with only four or so runners - if he drops in, we won't go fast. The start is downhill as well.
"Frankel settled very well at Ascot when we were going a million up the hill - I was on Dubawi Gold, sitting second, and I could not have gone an inch faster, off the bridle. That is why Frankel settled so well at Ascot but, if he was going slow, then he would be keen. If we go slow, he will be free. "
Hughes admits the showdown on Wednesday week is a race he is relishing.
"I cannot wait for the Sussex Stakes. I am looking forward to it just as much as the race against Goldikova at Royal Ascot - we got that job done.
"Canford Cliffs is the best I have ever ridden - I have ridden some good horses in my career but the first time I sat on this lad, I had never ridden anything like him.
"I think Frankel is a brilliant three-year-old - no doubt. I don't think the three-year-olds are brilliant as a whole but he is probably one of the best three-year-olds we have seen for a long time which is why he has stood out.
Hughes feels his partner is still on the upgrade and has few fears over the forecast rain before the meeting.
"Canford Cliffs looks better than ever. I think he is a little bit like Sea The Stars - he will just do what he has to do. He will go by whatever is in front of him. No matter what you follow, he will go by it - you feel he will go by anything. He travelled so easy at Royal Ascot," Hughes said.
"He won a maiden on soft ground - I think he would cope with that ground - most champions do.
"You would like to think that both horses are healthy on the day and there are no excuses - head to head at the furlong pole would be nice to see and then the best horse will win."
Most talented miler for decades??
Talking stops for me now,tad too many OTT comments for my liking.
Gonna Let the horses do the talking now,and see you all after the race.
cheers
Talking stops for me now,tad too many OTT comments for my liking.
Gonna Let the horses do the talking now,and see you all after the race.
cheers
Why is the AP market on the Sussex Stakes suspended, any one any idea.
Frankel's ascot run is a big red herring. He didn't like the Aw type surface up the straight which is worse
when theres some cut. With that run safely ignored his guineas run makes him in a different league to these
and anything but a 1 1/2+ length victory would be a surprise.
Although CC is a very good horse I don't think he's guaranteed to get second place even. I doubt the tracks
ideal, even though he won here last year. Zoffany and Dick turpin have every chance of filling second place
with preference going to Zoffany who has a bit of seconditis.
when theres some cut. With that run safely ignored his guineas run makes him in a different league to these
and anything but a 1 1/2+ length victory would be a surprise.
Although CC is a very good horse I don't think he's guaranteed to get second place even. I doubt the tracks
ideal, even though he won here last year. Zoffany and Dick turpin have every chance of filling second place
with preference going to Zoffany who has a bit of seconditis.
tut tut tut tinkler,the Frankel and Cliffs to fill the first 2 places in any order is about a billion to 1 odds on shot
4 runners.
Who will regret not having a pacemaker ? Hannon or Cecil ?
Who will regret not having a pacemaker ? Hannon or Cecil ?
Frankel already ordered a 2lb Steak at his local Butchers with a keg of Carlsberg ready for squandering after he slaps Canford all over Sussex.
I could not disagree more, Canford will break him in half. 
A shame that Sir Henry's flagbearing horse has to lose his unbeaten record this way.
A shame that Sir Henry's flagbearing horse has to lose his unbeaten record this way.
Frightening that one of them will be beat. Both beasts.
Indeed, just of the opinion that Canford is the Big Buck's of the flat, will catch what's in front of him and just does enough when he gets there
Frankel still a monster though
Frankel still a monster though
Frankel's going to have to lead right from the stalls to win this - that's going to be a very tough ride.
sintonian
25 Jul 11 12:19
Frightening that one of them will be beat. Both beasts.
Might be a dead heat or Rajsaman may beat both of them [;)]
25 Jul 11 12:19
Frightening that one of them will be beat. Both beasts.
Might be a dead heat or Rajsaman may beat both of them [;)]
does Nathaniel's win in the KG show that the WFA allowance will tilt the balance in Frankel's favour?
We will never know, weight affects different horses differently, but the 8lb is what is meant to bring the average 3yo in late July over a mile up to performing what he would expect to do 5 months later matured. As the actual weight carried is little different from past runs, its more of whether Canfords extra weight will slow him down but given Canfords running style it shouldn't burden him enough to make a significant difference, the earlier Frankel forces Canford to make his run the likelier the weight will affect him but its a balance between that and jeopardising his own performance. Frankel setting sail between 4 out and 3 out should be the right balance imo.
Major trend this season towards the classic generation. and its just not here. its happening all over the world. us, canada, UK, france, germany and japan.
quite remarkable really and his form is just getting boosted all over the place.
Got to keep the faith with Frankel. Have my doubts about Canford's win over Goldikova last time....she's 6 for fox sake [smiley:crazy] and the race was not run to suit. Freddie Head always been sceptical about the straight mile at Ascot being to stiff for her and the two pacemakers scorching it only set up for Canford to win as snuggly as he did. Well that was my reading on the race. Even the Lockinge doesnt look all that. Worthadd and Premio Loco....dont make me laugh.
quite remarkable really and his form is just getting boosted all over the place.
Got to keep the faith with Frankel. Have my doubts about Canford's win over Goldikova last time....she's 6 for fox sake [smiley:crazy] and the race was not run to suit. Freddie Head always been sceptical about the straight mile at Ascot being to stiff for her and the two pacemakers scorching it only set up for Canford to win as snuggly as he did. Well that was my reading on the race. Even the Lockinge doesnt look all that. Worthadd and Premio Loco....dont make me laugh.
It is worth pointing out,imo that CC put in his best performance of his 3yo career this time last year when he beat RVW. He clearly matured as the season went on, I and I fully expect it will be the same with this years 3yo participant, Frankel.
Another Gr1 race with hardly any runners, very disappointing.
CC ,rio de la plata and Rajsaman are all hold up horses and not even pressers. It's difficult to see any
other scenario than Frankel making the running. Although it has to be said that Frankel has more pace than
the others so if they went a crawl it would be to his advantage, as long as he settles.
Its possible that if frankel comes out quick he could bolt as he did in the Guineas with Queally being
unable to stop him.
Its going to take something abnormal to happen for Frankel to get beat.
CC ,rio de la plata and Rajsaman are all hold up horses and not even pressers. It's difficult to see any
other scenario than Frankel making the running. Although it has to be said that Frankel has more pace than
the others so if they went a crawl it would be to his advantage, as long as he settles.
Its possible that if frankel comes out quick he could bolt as he did in the Guineas with Queally being
unable to stop him.
Its going to take something abnormal to happen for Frankel to get beat.
Agree with tinkler, very disappointing. Unless we unexpectedly do get a decent pace, or one of the runners wins comprehensively, this hardly looks the champion defining event it promised to be. I'm sure of two things, firstly, if one of the main contenders is beaten narrowly the connections are bound to blame the lack of pace, and secondly, none of the presenters will have the balls to ask them why they didn't have the foresight to run a pacemaker.
Interesting race, billed up to be the clash between the two superstars Frankel & Canford Cliffs - but I just cant get out of my head the Imperial Commander vs Kauto & Denman and lately Nathanial vs Workforce, St Nicholas Abbey & Rewilding (RIP) scenarios....
So on a pure spoilsport basis im going to take some big prices for Rajsaman & Rio de la Plata who is 4th in the market @ 79/1 on here but I think that he has plenty more going for him than Rajsaman, namely:
1) Course winner (Vintage Stakes as a 2yo)
2) Does his winning at this time of year
3) Trainer hitting form
4) Frankie excellent from the front and could dictate terms
5) Travelled as well as Goldikova & Canford Cliffs at Ascot to the 2f pole before tiring (only 10 days between Queen Anne and the race at Epsom)
6) Why enter him at all if they didnt think he had a squeak?
7) Group 1 winner - Rajsaman is not
8) Does all his winning when has a decent rest in between races
On pure ratings Canford Cliffs & Frankel walk this, but I cant let a 3 x Group 1 winning horse go off at 79/1 - its just way too big
So on a pure spoilsport basis im going to take some big prices for Rajsaman & Rio de la Plata who is 4th in the market @ 79/1 on here but I think that he has plenty more going for him than Rajsaman, namely:
1) Course winner (Vintage Stakes as a 2yo)
2) Does his winning at this time of year
3) Trainer hitting form
4) Frankie excellent from the front and could dictate terms
5) Travelled as well as Goldikova & Canford Cliffs at Ascot to the 2f pole before tiring (only 10 days between Queen Anne and the race at Epsom)
6) Why enter him at all if they didnt think he had a squeak?
7) Group 1 winner - Rajsaman is not
8) Does all his winning when has a decent rest in between races
On pure ratings Canford Cliffs & Frankel walk this, but I cant let a 3 x Group 1 winning horse go off at 79/1 - its just way too big
Another point is if there is no pace on, the weight difference will matter less, so in theory making CC's task less formidable.
Frankel is a top horse but i think canford will track him during and hunt him down in the final furlong
Just researched small field 3yo+ group races over 1 mile in GB, there has been 9 of them with 4 or 5 runners involving 42 runners in total since 2000.
3yo 9 wins from 23 (5.6 exp)
4yo+ 0 wins from 19 (3.4 exp)
3yo 9 wins from 23 (5.6 exp)
4yo+ 0 wins from 19 (3.4 exp)
Don't know why this is being built up as 'race of the century'. 4 runners in the field - it's a joke race and has all the hallmarks of a crushing disappointment as it will surely become a tactical battle and won't tell us anything about the best horse but the best jockey.
Queally won't want to make himself a sitting duck for Hughes stalking him. So we'll likely have an awful scenario of zero gallop from the stalls and both horses pulling like stink over the first 2 furlongs trying to hold them both up. It will turn into a sprint.
Queally won't want to make himself a sitting duck for Hughes stalking him. So we'll likely have an awful scenario of zero gallop from the stalls and both horses pulling like stink over the first 2 furlongs trying to hold them both up. It will turn into a sprint.
The only explanation I could give for Grendels stats is that in big fields the generally smaller 3 y/o's
are more likely to feel intimidated being surrounded by older bigger rivals.
are more likely to feel intimidated being surrounded by older bigger rivals.
Does anyone think that Rajsaman is way overpriced here ?
Anything could happen in this race with just the 4 runners .
I think this is where the value lies .
Anything could happen in this race with just the 4 runners .
I think this is where the value lies .
Just keep it simple.
As has been proved many times , a top class 3yr old will generally beat older horses at this time of year in Group Ones given WFA.
As has been proved many times , a top class 3yr old will generally beat older horses at this time of year in Group Ones given WFA.
@johnnyrant - agree with the scenario you suggest. Frankel may well lead with a very slow pace then kick for home in the knowledge that he has the beating of this field in a 6f race.
Can't wait for Canford to slap his c ock around Frankel's face then make him eat his dust
converted my ratings into odds
| Sussex Stakes | Rating | Price | |
| Frankel | 137 | 1.53 | |
| Canford Cliffs | 133 | 3.3 | |
| Rajsaman | 121 | 46 | |
| Rio De La Plata | 120 | 53 |
Far From Trouble
27 Jul 11 00:05 Joined: 26 Jun 07 | Topic/replies: 11,465 | Blogger: Far From Trouble's blog
Can't wait for Canford to slap his c ock around Frankel's face then make him eat his dust
27 Jul 11 00:05 Joined: 26 Jun 07 | Topic/replies: 11,465 | Blogger: Far From Trouble's blog
Can't wait for Canford to slap his c ock around Frankel's face then make him eat his dust
Canford maybe wasn't at his best but Frankel's normal racing pace just kills the opposition. The worst thing you can do is let him have an easy lead, because while it's easy for Frankel the opposition are going way faster than they usually would.
Well, no reasonable excuses for CC there. Great to see Frankel confirm the quality of his Guineas win, brilliant.
TG rode a great race managing to conserve Frankel's speed for when it mattered. CC needs a strong pace and a target - he had the target but problem was the slow early pace meant the target was going away from him at the end! Think CC ran pretty much to form - the French horse got close to Goldikva last time - IMO he drifted across because he was flat to the boards and he's used to winning cosy.
buddeliea
Date Joined: 19 Mar 04
Add contact | Send message When: 20 Jul 11 17:38 Joined: Date Joined: 19 Mar 04 | Topic/replies: 3,700 | Blogger: buddeliea's blog
Most talented miler for decades??
Talking stops for me now,tad too many OTT comments for my liking.
Gonna Let the horses do the talking now,and see you all after the race.
cheers
Yes!, the most talented miler for decades.
Date Joined: 19 Mar 04
Add contact | Send message When: 20 Jul 11 17:38 Joined: Date Joined: 19 Mar 04 | Topic/replies: 3,700 | Blogger: buddeliea's blog
Most talented miler for decades??
Talking stops for me now,tad too many OTT comments for my liking.
Gonna Let the horses do the talking now,and see you all after the race.
cheers
Yes!, the most talented miler for decades.
Predictably it was a no contest and showed how much of an over hype there has been over it.. It takes 2 to make a
great contest and Frankel is just far too superior. Queally did well to settle him, but lets be honest
you cann't go wrong , its like driving a ferrari against a mini.
1 1/4 m looks like being ok as he's so good ,but will his class stretch to 1 1/2m ,thats the most
interesting question of all, that will probably never be answered.
the Juddmontte will probably be another small field no contest, I cannt see Ballydoyle risking SYT's
stud value and theres no other decent 1 1/4m horses to give him a race.
The only 2 interesting races left for him to run in are the Arc and the Breeders cup Classic.
Wouldn't it be great if he ran in one or both of those. If he was mine thats where he'd be running.
great contest and Frankel is just far too superior. Queally did well to settle him, but lets be honest
you cann't go wrong , its like driving a ferrari against a mini.
1 1/4 m looks like being ok as he's so good ,but will his class stretch to 1 1/2m ,thats the most
interesting question of all, that will probably never be answered.
the Juddmontte will probably be another small field no contest, I cannt see Ballydoyle risking SYT's
stud value and theres no other decent 1 1/4m horses to give him a race.
The only 2 interesting races left for him to run in are the Arc and the Breeders cup Classic.
Wouldn't it be great if he ran in one or both of those. If he was mine thats where he'd be running.
Well that was mighty impressive.
Most talented miler for decades?? Yes,thats possible,certainly convinced me now that hes the best miler around.
He certainly did the talking,and its great to have such a fantastic horse to enjoy.
Well done Grendel,and anyone else who has been saying Frankel is special.I needed more convincing.
He is special.
Most talented miler for decades?? Yes,thats possible,certainly convinced me now that hes the best miler around.
He certainly did the talking,and its great to have such a fantastic horse to enjoy.
Well done Grendel,and anyone else who has been saying Frankel is special.I needed more convincing.
He is special.
why on earth are you still talking about getting him settled Tinkler ? Cant you see he is maturing ? He settled beautifully at Ascot, just like he did today, but at Ascot they just kicked for home too soon.
He bust the clock over the last 3f - fastest I've recorded for the trip in the past 20 years or so.One of the all-time great milers.
Thanks Sandown I was wondering about the sectionals. It would be interesting to know how fast CC covered the last 3f compared to last year's renewal of the Sussex. The overall time was almost exactly the same and ground conditions similar. Would not suprise me if CC actually finished quicker this year.
Gotta hold my hands up here, Frankel is absolutely awesome, a true phenomenon
Didn't think it was possible for anything to do what Frankel did to a pretty exceptional racehorse in Canford Cliffs
Didn't think it was possible for anything to do what Frankel did to a pretty exceptional racehorse in Canford Cliffs
Seriously though, massively underestimated Frankel. Given that Canford Cliffs is a 5 time gr 1 winner beating plenty of other gr 1 horses in the process and probably the second best miler in the world, Frankel is some horse
They crawled for the first 1f or so so it ended up being a 7f race in all but name so not surprised the last half mile or so was very quick. It was like a piece of work, take it steady then gradually wind it up at the 4f ple andf then quicken up for the last 2f.
Looks like they have abandoned plans to go for the Juddmonte with the QEII at Ascot as his last race this year - not sure if it's on the round course or straight course yet. If it's decent ground (middle of October so could be anything) then at least Hannon won't be able to blame the track
.
I'd still love to see him drop in trip and take on Dream Ahead over 6-7f somewhere on nice ground.
Looks like they have abandoned plans to go for the Juddmonte with the QEII at Ascot as his last race this year - not sure if it's on the round course or straight course yet. If it's decent ground (middle of October so could be anything) then at least Hannon won't be able to blame the track
. I'd still love to see him drop in trip and take on Dream Ahead over 6-7f somewhere on nice ground.
A-T
Would not suprise me if CC actually finished quicker this year.
He did, albeit off a slower pace. CC put up a top class finishing split so I'm not of the opinion that he ran below par, it's just that Frankel is exceptional.Sooner or later Frankel will get a 140+ rating.
Would not suprise me if CC actually finished quicker this year.
He did, albeit off a slower pace. CC put up a top class finishing split so I'm not of the opinion that he ran below par, it's just that Frankel is exceptional.Sooner or later Frankel will get a 140+ rating.
It was like a piece of work, take it steady then gradually wind it up at the 4f ple andf then quicken up for the last 2f.
Damned with faint praise, indeed. If it was like a piece of work, then I'd like to see him when he's racing
Damned with faint praise, indeed. If it was like a piece of work, then I'd like to see him when he's racing
I wasn't intending to damn him Sandown, quite the opposite. Basically saying that he hardly broke sweat to do what he did yesterday as his normal pace is the equivalent of flat out for other horses. He also quickens in the blink of an eye.
Sandown
Taking nothing away from Frankel, whose Guineas win showed he was exceptional, but don't you think CC has been a bit overrated? He was outstanding as a 2yo in the Coventry but since then the only classy horses he's beaten were RVW, which was achieved in a slow run race when that horse was arguably not at his best, and Goldikova, who I would argue is also on the decline. He's run some decent times but nothing to put him up with the best milers. I know his fans have said he only does enough so we won't know how good he is until he's properly tested, well now he has been, imo.
Taking nothing away from Frankel, whose Guineas win showed he was exceptional, but don't you think CC has been a bit overrated? He was outstanding as a 2yo in the Coventry but since then the only classy horses he's beaten were RVW, which was achieved in a slow run race when that horse was arguably not at his best, and Goldikova, who I would argue is also on the decline. He's run some decent times but nothing to put him up with the best milers. I know his fans have said he only does enough so we won't know how good he is until he's properly tested, well now he has been, imo.
We'll see what Goldikova does next time out Figgis, this weekend or next ?
I think it might be the 15th, sint, not sure what else is being targeted at the race.
But he was tested by one of the most exceptional horses ever to be bread figgs,think you are being a little harsh on Canford,he is extremely high class on one of the best we have seen in years,you can name any miler you want to,going back as long as you want to and Frankel would have done to them exactly what he did to canford
As for Goldikova being in decline,well she will put that theory of yours to bed on sunday beating a very high class field of fillys and mares with ease
As for Goldikova being in decline,well she will put that theory of yours to bed on sunday beating a very high class field of fillys and mares with ease
Sorry, sint, I was forgetting the Rothschild, I don't really think she'd have to be at her best looking at that lot. For me, CC has just been a decent Gp 1 miler, up to the usual standard for such races but nothing more than that. It's his exciting last gasp finishes and Hughes' style of riding him that have elevated him above that.
what makes you think the 2010 Sussex was a slowly run race?, final time and running styles suggest an even paced race.
Richard Hannon this morning: "Had we been beaten a couple of lengths I could have accepted it, but to be beaten in that manner has left us scratching our heads, and, hopefully, we will get another crack at Frankel at Ascot.
"The first thing that Richard Hughes said when he got off was 'he is not himself'. He claimed that he was off the bridle before half-way, and Canford Cliffs has never been off the bridle in his life."
This race must have been a pretty sobering experience for the Hannon stable. Just watched the race again and I did not see CC coming off the bridle until the final 2f - Frankel kicked and just went away - CC drifted across the track under the sheer effort IMO. CC has never faced a horse in Frankel's league - the last I can remember who was comparable was Zafonic whose career went wrong after his Guineas but until then was a similarly impressive specimen who seemed to devour ground with his stride.
"The first thing that Richard Hughes said when he got off was 'he is not himself'. He claimed that he was off the bridle before half-way, and Canford Cliffs has never been off the bridle in his life."
This race must have been a pretty sobering experience for the Hannon stable. Just watched the race again and I did not see CC coming off the bridle until the final 2f - Frankel kicked and just went away - CC drifted across the track under the sheer effort IMO. CC has never faced a horse in Frankel's league - the last I can remember who was comparable was Zafonic whose career went wrong after his Guineas but until then was a similarly impressive specimen who seemed to devour ground with his stride.
Comparisons with the other races on the card. As Hughes said after the race, the Coolmore pacemaker went fast, but nobody else did.
Grendel, I should've said it was quite an ordinary time for a Gp 1, rather than a slow run race.
The 3rd and 4th horses are no mugs and yet they were beaten a very long way out as well - Frankel is simply too fast for all of them.
All this talk about CC not being himself is nonsense and connections are in denial. He was off the bridle
in the middle of the race because he couldn't handle frankels pace ,nothing can. The horse was blown out
of the water and was lugging left late on probably due to exhaustion.
CC is one of the better milers in recent times but is no better than horses like Rock of Gibralter and
henry the navigater . He may have beat Goldikova over a straight mile at his favoured Ascot but I doubt
he'd be able to beat her in a two turn race in the breeders cup.
in the middle of the race because he couldn't handle frankels pace ,nothing can. The horse was blown out
of the water and was lugging left late on probably due to exhaustion.
CC is one of the better milers in recent times but is no better than horses like Rock of Gibralter and
henry the navigater . He may have beat Goldikova over a straight mile at his favoured Ascot but I doubt
he'd be able to beat her in a two turn race in the breeders cup.
tinkler agree - CC brilliant miler but in the same category as those you mention. Frankel is something extraordinary.
Ignore Frankel and that was a good run from CC - the French horse ran Goldikova to a length last time and putting daylight between himself and the 3rd and 4th off an early crawl was a good performance.
Ignore Frankel and that was a good run from CC - the French horse ran Goldikova to a length last time and putting daylight between himself and the 3rd and 4th off an early crawl was a good performance.
I reckon that Canford Cliffs is a 132 horse.
However he was only 5 lbs (2.5 lengths) in front of Rio, who is a pretty solid 120 rated horse and pretty consistent too.
Race ratings (& I would be reasonably confident) 135 Frankel (+ whatever you want to add for ease of victory and he didn't seem to be exactly hard pressed to me), 125 Canford Cliffs and 120 Rio. Canford Cliffs drifted right across the track and may not have been quite right. however he might just have been shocked when Frankel quickened it was breathtaking. I personally have never seen a horse with a change of pace like that before and I can easily remember the Brigadier.
Canford Cliffs can definitely do better, but a Frankel on form is in my view a horse capable of any rating up to maybe 145.
I personally believe that Frankel will be better when he gets to race over 10 furlongs. he has plenty of stamina in his pedigree, and now he has settled pretty well, his pace through the last quarter of a mile would be fabulous.
In my view he is as near to Brigadier Gerard as any horse since.
However he was only 5 lbs (2.5 lengths) in front of Rio, who is a pretty solid 120 rated horse and pretty consistent too.
Race ratings (& I would be reasonably confident) 135 Frankel (+ whatever you want to add for ease of victory and he didn't seem to be exactly hard pressed to me), 125 Canford Cliffs and 120 Rio. Canford Cliffs drifted right across the track and may not have been quite right. however he might just have been shocked when Frankel quickened it was breathtaking. I personally have never seen a horse with a change of pace like that before and I can easily remember the Brigadier.
Canford Cliffs can definitely do better, but a Frankel on form is in my view a horse capable of any rating up to maybe 145.
I personally believe that Frankel will be better when he gets to race over 10 furlongs. he has plenty of stamina in his pedigree, and now he has settled pretty well, his pace through the last quarter of a mile would be fabulous.
In my view he is as near to Brigadier Gerard as any horse since.
^
agree with that assesment
QEII at Ascot as his last race this year - not sure if it's on the round course or straight course yet.
On the straight course, as they don't want 4 races on the round course in case it comes up soft.
agree with that assesment
QEII at Ascot as his last race this year - not sure if it's on the round course or straight course yet.
On the straight course, as they don't want 4 races on the round course in case it comes up soft.
I reckon I am very lucky.
I saw the Brigadier (on the telly) win the Guineas with an amazing turn of speed to beat 2 champions by 3 lengths.
I remember him beating a French champion, Sparkler, 6 lengths too. he was an amazing horse.
I was at Ascot when Shergar won the King George.
I saw Sea The Stars at York too.
I saw Dayjur win the Nunthorpe, and Stravinski and Moorestyle and the unbelievable filly Habibti as well.
I remember like it was yesterday Peter OSullivan saying "what a horse - he's trotting up" when Nijinsky won the king George with a Derby winner (Blakeny) thrashed in behind.
I rember Dancing Brave very well and the under rayed Sharastani winning the Irish Derby in a canter.
I have, however never seen a horse before like Frankel. He is quite amazing.
I saw the Brigadier (on the telly) win the Guineas with an amazing turn of speed to beat 2 champions by 3 lengths.
I remember him beating a French champion, Sparkler, 6 lengths too. he was an amazing horse.
I was at Ascot when Shergar won the King George.
I saw Sea The Stars at York too.
I saw Dayjur win the Nunthorpe, and Stravinski and Moorestyle and the unbelievable filly Habibti as well.
I remember like it was yesterday Peter OSullivan saying "what a horse - he's trotting up" when Nijinsky won the king George with a Derby winner (Blakeny) thrashed in behind.
I rember Dancing Brave very well and the under rayed Sharastani winning the Irish Derby in a canter.
I have, however never seen a horse before like Frankel. He is quite amazing.
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