Horse Antepost
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02 May 11
22:13
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Date Joined:
20 Sep 06
like everyone else on here, I was pretty much astonished by frankel's mindblowing performance in the 2000 guineas.
it reminded me of a lochsong or a lyric fantasy, just blasting from the stalls, setting a ferocious pace and destroying them from the front with his huge, awesome raking stride. and that visual impression is backed up by the clock, with apparently the sectionals simply being off the scale and comparing very favourably with the sprinters on the same card.
it was simply one of the most staggering displays i've had the fortune to witness on a racecourse and one of the most amazing sights on saturday, was the way casamento finished like a staying chaser, out on his legs at the end of the race, after foolishly trying (and failing) to keep some sort of tabs with frankel at the start of the race.
but what bugs me about that, apart from the fact of him obviously showing too far too much speed to imagine him staying more than a mile and a quarter, was the fact that he obviously had a hard race. going that pace and having to keep going for another two furlongs at the end, would take it out of any horse. will this affect him on his next run or even later in the season?
its interesting that they just let him run on saturday as they clearly felt he resented being held up in his last two runs. and as his best performance was at ascot, why not just let him use that huge stride? so they clearly threw any derby aspirations out of the window just with the way they let him take off. on the face of it, no 3 year old is going to be able to live with him from any distance from 6 to 10 furlongs.
but they'll be big tests later in the season against the likes of canford cliffs. and I just wondered if anyone else felt, that huge run may have left its mark?
it reminded me of a lochsong or a lyric fantasy, just blasting from the stalls, setting a ferocious pace and destroying them from the front with his huge, awesome raking stride. and that visual impression is backed up by the clock, with apparently the sectionals simply being off the scale and comparing very favourably with the sprinters on the same card.
it was simply one of the most staggering displays i've had the fortune to witness on a racecourse and one of the most amazing sights on saturday, was the way casamento finished like a staying chaser, out on his legs at the end of the race, after foolishly trying (and failing) to keep some sort of tabs with frankel at the start of the race.
but what bugs me about that, apart from the fact of him obviously showing too far too much speed to imagine him staying more than a mile and a quarter, was the fact that he obviously had a hard race. going that pace and having to keep going for another two furlongs at the end, would take it out of any horse. will this affect him on his next run or even later in the season?
its interesting that they just let him run on saturday as they clearly felt he resented being held up in his last two runs. and as his best performance was at ascot, why not just let him use that huge stride? so they clearly threw any derby aspirations out of the window just with the way they let him take off. on the face of it, no 3 year old is going to be able to live with him from any distance from 6 to 10 furlongs.
but they'll be big tests later in the season against the likes of canford cliffs. and I just wondered if anyone else felt, that huge run may have left its mark?
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time will tell but IMV the answer to your question is YES
I wondered how long it would take for someone to mention the "bounce".
As far as Queally is concerned everything Frankel does comes naturally to him. The fact he can demolish a field at a canter doesn't mean he's overexerting himself.
As far as Queally is concerned everything Frankel does comes naturally to him. The fact he can demolish a field at a canter doesn't mean he's overexerting himself.
no .
i agree he had a hard race but as long as they give it a long enough break there wont be a problem.
cecil is very mindful of this and that is one of the reasons it misses york. if he had a race like that near the end of the season and was asked to go again that would be different.
as long as the ground is good or faster you wont see this horse being beat this season.
i agree he had a hard race but as long as they give it a long enough break there wont be a problem.
cecil is very mindful of this and that is one of the reasons it misses york. if he had a race like that near the end of the season and was asked to go again that would be different.
as long as the ground is good or faster you wont see this horse being beat this season.
NO! He will improve for it. Wait until Ascot!!!!
He will come there travelling strongly and kick 5 clear in 3 strides.
This is the greatest of all time, I told you before Saturday over and over again.
Thank you, Thank you
Mr Money Mayweather
He will come there travelling strongly and kick 5 clear in 3 strides.
This is the greatest of all time, I told you before Saturday over and over again.
Thank you, Thank you
Mr Money Mayweather
After the race HC said he had a lot left in the tank and implied he was idling in front.
Of course he may be wrong but I hope not
Of course he may be wrong but I hope not
I'm sorry but as much as I love Henry and the way he speaks we all know as well as he does Frankel was not idling. It will be interesting to see him next time out. Will they trail blaze from the front again? I think not. I guess they will just be hoping he won't pull his head off now. The way this horse races is so exciting and entertaining I just hope he doesn't run himself into the ground. It takes a lot out of horses racing in such a way superstar or not.
Its apt the username above should post, given that horses performance(Astonishing) in his 1st champ chase win. He never really repeated it again despite winning plenty at the highest level. Performances like Frankels in the Guineas are usually one offs. The horse cutens up and knows he doesnt need to repeat it in order to win imho
Frankel's performance in the 2000 Gns put me in mind of Secretariat's runs as a 3yr especially the Belmont. Okay, its dirt vs turf, but both horses went from the gate at a blistering speed and kept at the fractions. It's interesting to compare the two. Frankel covered 8f in 97.3 whilst Secretariat ran the first 8f in 94.2 an incredible 3.1 secs around 18 lths faster and then went for another 4f in 49.8 covering the whole 12f at an even average of 12 secs p.f. Incredible.
After watching the film "Secretariat" recently, I noted that after having won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness with dazzling performances, he was then hard trained for the Belmont when most observers said he should be given a rest.
The point is, it depends on the horse and the trainer, how he should be trained and how the horse might perform next time.
Len Ragozin, who coined the term "bounce" opined that younger horses might be able to cope with a big effort by improving further, but usually 2 or 3 runs later reaching a new peak, or it might set them back. It all depends.
Frankel ran a "dirt" race style not a turf race style. Secretariat showed that he could stay 12f with an even greater performance when all doubted him. Is Frankel as good as Secretariat? Who knows?
After watching the film "Secretariat" recently, I noted that after having won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness with dazzling performances, he was then hard trained for the Belmont when most observers said he should be given a rest.
The point is, it depends on the horse and the trainer, how he should be trained and how the horse might perform next time.
Len Ragozin, who coined the term "bounce" opined that younger horses might be able to cope with a big effort by improving further, but usually 2 or 3 runs later reaching a new peak, or it might set them back. It all depends.
Frankel ran a "dirt" race style not a turf race style. Secretariat showed that he could stay 12f with an even greater performance when all doubted him. Is Frankel as good as Secretariat? Who knows?
Sandown
I completely agree that all horses are different and none of us know for sure how any horse will react after a big effort. However, as far as betting goes I prefer to take a generalised view. Frankel might well be one of the great exceptions, but there has to be a big chance a performance like that will have affected him negatively. Some people don't subscribe to the bounce theory, I do. Others explain the same phenomenon by a "regression to the mean", a plausible explanation, which fits some circumstances but I don't accept it as a replacement for the bounce theory.
The problem with the idea of opposing Frankel next time is that he could possibly regress by around a stone (or more) from the Guineas and still beat the opposition he's likely to face at Ascot. He could of course "bounce to the moon", but that's not easily predictable, in my view.
I completely agree that all horses are different and none of us know for sure how any horse will react after a big effort. However, as far as betting goes I prefer to take a generalised view. Frankel might well be one of the great exceptions, but there has to be a big chance a performance like that will have affected him negatively. Some people don't subscribe to the bounce theory, I do. Others explain the same phenomenon by a "regression to the mean", a plausible explanation, which fits some circumstances but I don't accept it as a replacement for the bounce theory.
The problem with the idea of opposing Frankel next time is that he could possibly regress by around a stone (or more) from the Guineas and still beat the opposition he's likely to face at Ascot. He could of course "bounce to the moon", but that's not easily predictable, in my view.
No! He will beat anything! Yes, that includes the magnificent Goldikova and brilliant Canford Cliffs.
As I said before, Frankel is something else!
As I said before, Frankel is something else!
He slowed up pretty severely in that last furlong though didn't he?
Not to crab his performance but it was far in excess of anything else he'd done, and it has to be rated unlikely that they'll run him like that again, for fear of bottoming him and similarly because they'll feel they have something in hand over opposition.
He should hose in in the St James Palace, but after that he'll be up against battle hardened older horses, with all connections fully aware of potential tactics. Don't forget, no-one predicted what he was gonna do (ie make all) at Newmarket and it has to go down as a tactical masterstroke as much as anything but they were fortunate they had the horse to pull it off.
Not to crab his performance but it was far in excess of anything else he'd done, and it has to be rated unlikely that they'll run him like that again, for fear of bottoming him and similarly because they'll feel they have something in hand over opposition.
He should hose in in the St James Palace, but after that he'll be up against battle hardened older horses, with all connections fully aware of potential tactics. Don't forget, no-one predicted what he was gonna do (ie make all) at Newmarket and it has to go down as a tactical masterstroke as much as anything but they were fortunate they had the horse to pull it off.
Yes, he did slow up in the final furlong, what do you expect when a horse with a bloodline to run between 8 to 12 furlongs runs the pace he did.
If they hold Frankel up, he will destroy anything.
If they hold Frankel up, he will destroy anything.
Don't listen to people with Jim McGrath. You need to listen to me.
Frankel is better than Sea The Stars
Frankel is better than Sea The Stars
i've seen that secretariat performance on youtube. I imagine he must have been drugged up to the eyeballs because such a performance seems impossible otherwise.
I doubt it mp... there was no mention of drugs in the movie! 
Horse gets 4 or 5 cracks of the whip and he had a hard race?
welcome to planet nonsensical?
welcome to planet nonsensical?
Howdi - yes, Frankel can beat Brampour. Frankel can beat anyone, I told you this yesterday and that includes the magnificent Goldikova and brilliant Canford Cliffs. Frankel is the best since Nijinsky, I told you this months ago.
Howdi-you tip some many losers lol
Howdi-you tip some many losers lol
Silly post Nijinsky was not as good as a number of hoses since his time - Shergar and Sea The Stars and Dancing Brave to name but three. You could add Peintre Celebre to the list as well.
Frankel may prove to be an all time great and his performance in the 2000 Guineas was staggering. However beating Dubawi Gold by 6 lengths (12 lbs) does not make him a legend.
Frankel may prove to be an all time great and his performance in the 2000 Guineas was staggering. However beating Dubawi Gold by 6 lengths (12 lbs) does not make him a legend.
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