Kauto-Hennessy Gold Cup??

Im interested on what mark Phil Smith would have given to a horse that won by 8l off 185 nowdays....

As Bobby Dazzler known on here as one of IC'S owners on here, marks given today seem high, makes IC better than Captain Christy and Burrough Hill Lad

IC better than Burrough Hill Lad LMFAOB (B=backwards) you can see the hyper inflation in ratings these days off levels is a total joke. Its as though the new order begun by Best Mates connections outside of handicaps and followed by others since has totally flummoxed the handicapper in giving a realistic mark.

Any thread with Kauto in the title always ends up full of people disparaging great horses.

People on here enjoy discussing greats , their strengths and yes their weaknesses. The day we need to worry is when nobody cares enough to do this. There are plenty of them on the Horse Racing forum.

And thats the only thing that im likely to agree with Eric On

Here's a good article about Phil Smith and his "Missing" re evaluated raing for Arkle by Timeform

http://www.timeform.com/show_article.asp?num=3206

Wrong there CV. I can't see anyone disparaging KS. I may criticise his owner and trainer's choice of race but I haven't criticised Kauto at all.
After all this is a forum not a shrine. This is where individual opinions are put forward and discussed. I may prefer one horse and you may prefer another. It would be a very sad world if we all liked the same horse. Or maybe not providing we all agreed with you.
And you want to be a bit more sparing about the word 'great'. A much over used word in my opinion.

Onred thing that aint open to debate is the ratings these days.As much as i respect all Gold Cup winners,i cannot have any of the current crop better than Burrough Hill lad over the Gold Cup trip.

onred = one,by the way!

Interesting that Kirk has chosen to denigrate Dessie for beating inferior inconsistent animals who might not even be fit in a.n.other handicap, when on this same thread he gave a very compelling argument as to why winning such a race off a high mark would be very difficult and therefore presumably quite an achievement?


eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 593 02 Nov 10 19:59   
Running off level weights with opponents compared to conceding stones to lesser and in some cases the same horses is a totally different ball game. It is chalk and cheese.

The horses who were level weight with him but now with lower weights are now 'sped up' relative to him. For me this is not a linear scale for all horses there are numerous factors come in to play now. Stronger horses might have very little difference in top speed/duration say carrying between 11st 6lb and 12st  whereas less strong horses may see a small difference in a smaller band say 11st 6lb and 11st 10lb. Above a certain weight one horse will maintain its speed better than another. So this depends on the horse it isnt simple maths as ratings would have you believe it depends on the weight for that particular horse.

Another factor is the eyeball to eyeball struggle that weight conceding brings. They are battling now, one isnt cruising over the others like fancy Dan, this could affect some horses spirit more than others. So again dependant on the horse. Instead of travelling how he wants with plenty in hand he is now being 'bustled up' by the other 'sped up' horses carying less weight. I think Kauto likes to travel well within himself when he comes under pressure he is not the same horse whereas Denman bullies them out of it. Another consideration is the horses concentration at the business end when he is used to pulling away now they stay with him for longer and he doesnt feel as comfortable ... more likely to make a mistake.

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 593 02 Nov 10 20:02   
Also recovery ... a stronger horse is more likely to take such a struggle conceding weight well than a lighter framed horse imo of course. There will be other factors cant think of right now...

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 593 02 Nov 10 20:23   
Another factor .. when the horse is at its normal top speed and the other light weighted 'sped up'  horses are bustling him the jockey has to ask for even more than his normal top speed to counteract the 'sped up' horses some who may speed up more than expected at their weight (see previous point on weight carried by horse not having a linear affect on its resulting speed). Again mistakes more likely and the horse feeling uncomfortable as he is pushed for more speed and acceleration than off levels while the others can accelerate quicker than off levels. Not a problem when they are off level weights.

Another factor ... well being on the day ... off levels the better horse may be so much better he can win even on a slightly off day. Conceding weight he has to be 100% or they will get him.

Quite DO

Eric Morris is a narcissist, desmond. He even accused people and me of backing Kauto for the Hennessy simply because they disagreed with his point.of.view. This in speght of my comments on Page 2 of this thread.

He does this kind of thing all the time.

*speight

I highlighted it depends on the type of horse, weight conceding type or not, jumping mistakes or not. I gave great detail on that.

brigust, I was talking about Dessie being denigrated on here. I'll explain my comment a bit.

-Kauto threads attract kirk (eric_morris).

-Kirk spends all his time trying to diminish and downplay great horses achievements so as to elevate his favourite horse, Best Mate.

-It results is people defending these horse, Kauto & Dessie are the usual targets, Denman too.

-It results in a the downplaying of Best Mate's achievemnts.

It happens non stop on here. Say every 2 weeks there will be the same thing.

Dessie, Kauto, Best Mate, Denman, these are horses that should be celebrated by all.

bud would you not think Kauto in 2009 was pretty much Gold Cup perfection?

I can't see how he could have done more given Ruby wanted to follow Neptune over the 2nd last, Kauto took him to the front 4 out. It wasn't even the plan, who knows what they could have done had Ruby made for home after the 5th last as Kauto was powering up the hill. He could have gone another few furlongs.

It's hard to compare horses who never raced eachother but I agree with timeform when they say that was "the best performance in the race since Arkle".

All great horses are faultless ... anon.

This non-story now put to bed , how many column inches did the press get out of it.

I dont agree with Timeform. How can they possibly overlook the fact the horse in 2nd was Denman who had been diagnosed with heart problems previously and was ridden in a totally subdued manner playing totally against his strengths and totally to Kautos strengths. If he wasnt ridden like that for heart reasons then the trainer should have been pulled in to the stewards room. We all know Kauto gets beat/his jumping falls to pieces when the pace is turned on at an undulating Cheltenham whther it be a 2 mile Champion Chase or his 2 losing Gold Cups where he isnt the greatest at jumping/staying unless he is allowed to cruise around. In years to come people will read what Timeform have said in black and white .... however I will know differently because I have my own eyes and better understanding of the horses traits than they do.

You can read similar things on the great Arkle the best staying chaser ever and the Gold Cup horses he gave weight to in a Hennessy etc only to find they were in terrible form at the time and were more Cool Ground than Kauto Star. Doesnt denigrade the horse it just adds reality to the hype in some instances. Thats how you make money antepost you see what others dont see in a horse and what he beat and the way he did it, the way he doesnt like it. It isnt hero worshipping it is cutting the crap then seeing not just a great horse but a great horse under only certain conditions, at certain trips etc. Great horse is too general you need to break it down to where they were great and where they werent great. Arkle imo was great in all respects, the ultimate chaser.

Forget Denman in 2009, Exotic Dancer, Neptune Collonges, both Grade 1 winners were hammered. That was the best Gold Cup field in years.

Kirk you have proved all your opinions are to maintain Best Mates better than all since Arkle over the Gold Cup trip. So no matter what Kauto does or did you will always maintain that. So your opinion is indeed wortheless given it's total bias.

Denman was a better staying chaser than Kauto Star. You saw the Gold Cup and you saw Denman ridden to his strengths and Kauto showing his usual jumping/staying frailties when the pace is on. We have plenty of evidence of that now re Kauto not liking the taps on early at Chelts. anyone who discounted that as Kauto not being himself that day is a total mug as he showed he was himself since then re jumping there.

That is at trips above 3 miles. At 3 and under Kauto is the best I've seen off levels.

We know your simplistic stats eric, somehow falling and a defeat at Aintree over 3m1f prove your stupid point he doesn't stay the gold cup trip.

*yawn* must this nonsense really be recycled every week? Seriously?

The only class horses Denman has met in a Gold Cup have beaten him when ridden to their strengths. Dawn Run beat the likes of Wayward Lad and Silver Buck who all would have left Exotic Dancer for dead. Exotic Dancer is the most over-rated chaser ever for the purposes of justifying Kauto's rating.

Kauto has met....

Yes everyone is wrong kirk, timeform included. Kauto is only good over 3m.

How can anyone take timeform seriously when they say 2009 was "the best performance in the race since Arkle". How could a dual Gold Cup winning horse, who doesn't stay, be given such an accolade.

Hmmm, I was thinking as he powered up the hill that day. Man that horse doesn't stay the Gold Cup trip. But then I realised only 1 horse Kauto has ever raced actually stays the trip, Denman all the other horses beaten over the past 3 years were non stayers. It's so simple, how have timeform and the handicapper got it so wrong.

You should write to timeform kirk. Tell them they're wrong, Kauto is a non stayer.

When Kauto made that huge blunder at the 8th fence in the Gold Cup this year, I was thinking, that's a non stayer. He's racing over 3m2f+ and made a huge jumping mistake. The is clear evidence he doesn't stay over 3m.

Fcuk me, Silver Buck ran in the 1986 gold Cup did he, my arse he did

Also back in 2008, while Denman was sat at home after bottoming himself in the Gold Cup 3 weeks earlier, Kauto was pulling away from the Totesport Bowl field at Aintree when a huge blunder at the 2nd last winded him and he almost came to a halt, he jumped the last and was caught just on the line.

I was thinking, non stayer, that extra furlong was what cost him the race, not the Gold Cup 3 weeks prior, not the blunder 2 out. The extra furlong on the flat track.

Non stayer proven.

These are the things you use as "evidence" Kauto doesn't stay further than 3 miles.

This is in fact the "evidence" you are either totally clueless or only want to maintain Best Mate superior to Kauto over the Gold Cup trip.

So stop this charade. Give it up kirk and stop wasting everyone's time.

Forgive N Forget rather than Silver Buck but lets be honest using Exotic Dancer as a marker to measure the supposed greatest staying chaser since Arkle against is like using Voy Por Ustedes as the marker to measure a an all-time great 2 miler against.

Kauto justifies his rating in the King George but not elsewhere and certainly not at trips above 3 miles having lost 3 of his last 4 runs at those trips standing or not. Until great stayers Denman and IC came along he was racing against glorified handicappers.

So you want to use Forgive and forget and Wayward Lad, mmm lets look at a race nine months later when both had to find a strong pair of Bins to see which way the Grey went


And how many races did Wayward Lad win at Cheltenham, Lapped by Burrough Hill Lad, beaten by The Thinker, in fact i dont think he even won there, so using his Cheltenham form hardly praises Dawn Run...

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 599 16 Nov 10 20:37   
I highlighted it depends on the type of horse, weight conceding type or not, jumping mistakes or not. I gave great detail on that. 

Ah, I get it, so the fact that Dessie was a 'weight conceding type' and not given to 'jumping mistakes' (you could shorten this description to 'better') made it somehow easier for him to win handicaps. As if he was getting some kind of unfair advantage? Of course, some might say that that's why we have a handicapping system isn't it, to try and even out these advantages? You do understand the basic purpose of handicapping, kirk?

Exotic Dancer won only 6 from 15 of his chases that didnt have Kauto or Denman. He lost to Turnip Green (who was also only beaten 5 lengths by Kauto in his first Gold Cup). Our Vic, Knowhere, Snoopy Loopy, Madison Du Berlais beat Exotic, also lost couple of his novice chases. Glorified handicapper and what Kauto was measured against until Denman and IC came along to turn the taps on.

Kauto is also extremely lucky his only 2 serious challengers in his career are hopeless at the sharp King George track leaving him against a bunch of handicappers in that.

So you dont wan t to discuss Dawn Runs Cheltenham Gold Cup Form then, Surprise Surprise

I still believe Wayward Lad was way better than Exotic Dancer anywhere. He like Kauto excelled in the sharper King George but when the taps were on he too like Kauto couldnt stay out the trip as well as his great contemporaries.

great contemporaries.


The Thinker, Cybrandian ????

Dawn Run beat the likes of Wayward Lad and Silver Buck who all

I think Silver Buck had left this mortal coil by then

Dawn Run  beat Wayward Lad receiving 5 pounds , not at levels.

Erics phucked if you go back pre racing post results finder...........

Gold Cup winner Forgive N Forget, multiple King George winner Wayward Lad were much better opposition to Dawn Run and all better horses than the distinctly average Exotic Dancer.  Exotic Dancer beats Racing Demon 1.25 lengths when 2nd to Kauto in the King George, then the same horse again only a head when behind Kauto and doubtful stayer Our Vic (remember the RSA with him??) in subsequent King George. Even Our Vic beat Kauto off levels at a staying trip above 3 miles. How much more evidence do you need?

Gold Cup winner Forgive N Forget, multiple King George winner Wayward Lad were much better opposition to Dawn Run


Taking Cheltenham form more seriously must mean that the Thinker was a better horse than Dawn run then......

The conditions were way different never remember a Gold Cup run in the snow like that, The Thinker was very fortunate.

Racing Demon is virtually the same horse as Exotic based on the King George proximity TWICE. Racing Demon is no Wayward Lad, Dawn Run or Forgive N Forget in any century.

Think they ran near to the form they showed the year before with each other. Dawn Run, although she was the 1st (and now probably only) horse to do the double, couldnt be ranked near the best at either Hurdles(Cima...) or Fences

If Bula had the ground as it was in '86 rather than the bottomless ground of '75 , he would have done the double & at levels.

Probably True 626, its not likely to happen again though

Can you name the last Champion Hurdle winner to go off fav for the Gold Cup???

Celtic Shot

Rarely do they look like they have the scope for steeplechasing nowadays & certainly not for 3miles 2.

Istabraq , Collier Bay , Hors La Loi III , Katchit , Binocular , Make A Stand etc   ..... none of them sound like Gold Cup contenders do they ?

yep eric 20 years ago, im pretty sure that Beech Road was the last champion Hurdler to contest the race a few years after

19 years ago, sorry

Can you name the last Champion Hurdle winner to go off fav for the Gold Cup???


Was that not Dawn Run ?

Can only think off Bula & Lanzarote as other possibles.

I found that in the pre Racing Post results finder. 

or Night Nurse of course.

It was Celtic Shot 626, think he went off around the 3/1 mark

Eric, its still on the site 

..around same time as similarly named Mercy Rimell horse Celtic Chief.

I use SLife normally, dont think it will be on there.

Who beat him in the Tolworth pre the 88 Champion Hirdle

I switched loyalties off Celtic Shot that year for the CHurdle afterwards having backed him in defeat ... an early lesson for me.

Celtic Shot , crikey.  most of have been a poor year. No Best Mate , Denman , Kauto Star , Kicking King or War Of Attrition around then.

Dunno, he was exceptional over fences but was injured in the Gold Cup. He beat the Gold Cup winner subsequently.

626, Dessie was a pensioner then, finished a distant third to Garrison Savannah and the Fellow, its a vit sad that Garrison went so wrong after with Injuries, that run at Liverpool must have been 1973 all over again for Jenny Pitman

Bit sad*

..earlier, Garrison Savannah. Now we're getting to the Dessie, The Fellow era.

1991 Adam Kondrat on The Fellow & 12 year oll Desert Orchid , behind Garrison Savannah .

Yup very average year.

On the subject of Gold Cup winners running in the National(Garrison) was Master Oats the last Gold Cup winner to run in the race??

Eric all this is based on how you look at a horses form.
You obviously judge a horse on his worst form, which is ridiculous, where everyone else, Timeform included, judges a horse on his best form.
When you judge a horse you must look at what he has achieved not where he failed. There are always mitigating circumstances for failure including fitness, going, tactics etc.

brigust, he has to judge kauto on his defeats, as wining is expected every time the horse is on a race track. He hasn't been 2nd fav ib a race since his first race in open company.

His record in grade 1 chases is 1F111111121U1111F1

His record in all staying chases 3m+ is 111111221U1111F1

The only thing to pick on there is the end of 2008 season where we see a 2.

Amazed you lot are still giving this Eric/Kirk/Moritz fella the time of day. He'll say anything to re-affirm his point.of.view.

Not only that Sint, he actually goes looking for a row. If you say anything that he can't answer, he will simply change the subject to maintain the argument. I imagine when he's not at his PC that he is as meek as a mouse, there is a lot of pent up frustration in this boy. In many ways it's good that t'interweb lets them express themselves in such a way, in days gone by they just went bananas!

Of Exotic Dancer, he was a consistently good horse. His open company form, excluding his pipe opener fto where he never won was

112121-2353-3132

In his second season after coming 2nd to kauto for the 3rd time in a row in a grade 1 they tried a different tactic in the king george and put it up to Kauto a long way from home a tactic which failed and cost him 2nd.

He was going to run in the irish Hennessy then but he got a back injury, but still ran in the gold cup and at aintree, two races he didn't show his best in.

His 3rd season he was poor, like Kauto in the betfair chase, but then won the Lexus chase, came 3rd to Kauto and Denman in the Gold Cup and then for 2nd at Aintree in a race that ultimately killed him.

He was a high quality and very consistent horse who, but for Kauto Star would have won a gold cup, two king georges & a betfair chase to go with his Lexus, PaddyP0wer and Boylesp0rts double and Totesp0rt bowl.

14 chases, 5 wins, 5 defeats by Kauto, 3 substandard runs and the 2nd in the race that killed him. He was a fine horse who born in any other time would have achieved much more.

Brigust, Eric wouldnt dare go the "Best form" Route...

Yeah he brings up Exotic Dancers fto defeat at the hands of Turpin Green, the season he won 4 and came 2nd to Kauto twice.

I'm pretty sure given he was running in the PaddyP0wer nto the defeat at Carlisle to Turpin wasn't a bad thing. But it is the form that matters most to kirk

Cv,i dont really want to add another debate to the ever growing list of Kauto against whoever.Cant believe this Kauto/Hennessey thread has lasted so long!!and diversed from the subject,but then again.....

Just wanted to say that i mentioned Burrough Hill Lad cos he to me was the ultimate Gold Cup horse,and i was always of the impression that he would take some beating round there.So when he is rated inferior to other GC winners,i have my doubts.Still,its so difficult to compare different eras and people will always disagree,nowt wrong with that, but we all need to remember that we are talking about great horses here!!
Kauto was a great performance no doubt,but i will always have that nagging doubt about the way Denman ran in the race compared to the previous year.That is in no way trying to belittle Kauto,after all he does what he can do on the day,and that was impressive.

Cheers bud, just wanted your opinion on the 2009 performance. Hard to believe anything could have beaten him that day. One of the best ever Gold Cup performances that was.

Best field in many a year, packed full of top horses, five grade 1 winners, the hennessy winner and the rsa winner. It's understandable why timeform, the handicapper and the racing post all rated it so highly.

Fair comment,and hard to argue against.
I guess its down to how good these horses are compared to those of years gone by,and that will always be down to opinion,as no definite way of judging really.Once horses are given ratings they have to change them according to when they meet each other.I do think their is an argument to say that horses these days tend to get too high a rating compared,leaving out Arkle and his mates of course,who are probably a tad high as well.
eg,i find it difficult to imagine Arkle giving Kauto 22lb in a Gold Cup,and i also find it difficult to imagine Kauto giving Burrough Hill Lad weight in a Gold Cup.

brigust1 i look at both a great horses good form/conditions and poorest form/conditions. That is how I decide when or not to have four figures on them. A great horse is normally only a great horse under specific conditions ... unless it's Arkle who had no weak areas .. pace at shortish trips, stayed staying trips above 3m at pace, jumped v well, conceded weight easily... went left handed went right handed ... no faults. The other greats since then I can see one or more weaknesses in.

Versatility (trip)
Versatility (left and right handed)
Jumping at pace (undulating or not)
Staying speed stamina Championship (above 3m)
Speed stamina Championship (3m)
Weight conceding conformation/ability
Running style

Lets rank Denman, Kauto, Arkle, Best Mate, Burrough Hill Lad out of 5 on these elements of greatness.

In 1994 , 3 Gold Cup winners ran in the Grand National ...... & none got round.

Garrison Savannah
The Fellow
Master Oats

Running style [;)]

Exactly that bud, it goes to opinion when comparing horses of different generations.

But why Kauto and Denman are judged so highly is because the consistently talented horses of this era. Exotic Dancer & Neptune Collonges, both winners of plenty of top staying chases, who have maintained.

The reason Best Mate isn't rated as high is because, Beef or Salmon aside, it was a who's who of average handicappers he faced. Horses with a mere handful of career wins filled the places on all three of his wins.

So it's understandable why the ratings are on the high end in this era, where Kauto consistently beat Exotic Dancer, he himself consistently beat the rest.

Exotic Dancer = Racing Demon. Definitely not great animals nowhere near.

I was talking to bud, you know a good poster.

We know your stupid opinions on the subject. Truckers Tavern and Sir Rembrant are better than Exotic Dancer and Neptune Collonges.

*yawn*

FFs Eric you cannot use Arkle as the median. He was the exception. Every horse falls below standard by comparison. That is ridiculous in the extreme.
Take a sensible yardstick, and there are plenty, and work around them.
Burrough Hill Lad, Best Mate, Denman there is a good group only just below or adjacent to the very best and you should work around them.
If your example is better than the above you have a very, very good horse and if only slightly worse then you have barely below the top class.
Do not use Kauto Star or Desert Orchid because even with their faults they were/are exceptions to the rule.

I wasnt using Arkle as the median I was using him as the perfect role model. Not sure what language you read in brigust1?

See elements of greatness post above ... Dessie doesnt measure up on quite a few.

....both Versatility's should be at Championship level, Weight conceding is a separate category.

Eric I don't want to be rude but my Dad always told me 'never to argue with idiots because no matter what you say they will always be idiots'. I bid you goodnight.

and never hold dialogue withpeople who cant read properly.

Id like to know what Dessie failed on...............

Note, Eric will never offer a view on a race that is forthcoming, Ante Post gives him that opportunity to get out, either by blaming the trainer, etc, etc

Maybe he could give us a selection for the Hennesssey, although i suspect hie ego will not allow it

Zil, having been comprehensively outpointed by CV regarding KS, he is now looking for a fight with Dessies fans, he has a desperate need for the attention that he isn't getting away from his PC. Perhaps if we didn't feed his addiction.....
To answer your point, Dessie doesn't fall down on any of Kirks carefully constructed criteria, his biggest weakness was going left handed, yet he still managed to win a Gold Cup and at Aintree, so I reckon a 3to4/5 for that. The rest are 4+, mainly 5s.

I think the Dessie winning a gold cup despite his aversion to going left handed is a true testament to a great horse. People could have simply excused him from winning the gold cup, if a horse can't reproduce his best then he can't, what more can you ask? Guts and courage, Dessie won it with guts and courage. With that win he cemented his greatness.

That's what these great horses do, the have that something to overcome. It's like Kauto read what was written about him in 2008 before he proved a point in 2009. It's that something special they have which we will remember most. Each had a unique bit of magic. They are special, no doubt, don't ever doubt that.

And that should be the end of it.

Well said CVB, no excuses made when beaten over trip track or distance; an exceptional racehorse.

So now Tidal Bay is better than Kauto and Burrough Hill Lad then?

....or is it just that Kauto is not as effective over a staying course 3m+ as a sharp 3 miles.

..and so theratings are being hyped up on IC because of his proximity at trips above 3 miles to Kauto when Kauto is nowhere near as good as his rating over the perfect 3 m King George course/trip.