Timeform on Kauto v Arkle

Cymro - I am an Arkle man thru and thru, BUT I recall a big debate on here a year or so ago that strongly suggested that that Gallagher performance was not quite what it seemed. I will try and dig out some details but I think that the general sense was that there were/are virtually no top class chases over Sandown's 3m prior to or since Arkle's performance.

Cymro - the course record broken by Arkle was set by Mill House in February of the same year, not 12 months earlier. The 12 month earlier race was run under a different name (Senior Service Trophy), was won by John O'Groats (P Kelleway rip) and was over a slightly longer distance.

Its true that Arkle was 35 sec under average that day but he only won by 5 seconds from rondetto rec 26lbs ) and all the other races that day were between 5.6 to 20 seconds below average.The 2 mile hurdle was won in a time of 20 seconds below average suggesting that 30/35 seconds below for 3 miles might not have been such an unusual time.

I think it was firm in fact. Doubt there was any watering in those days. Probably Arkle`s best ever performance tough. Rondetto was at his peak and there have been a lot worse horses won The Gold Cup. Mill House WAS past his best though.

You need to split it into categories and trips to determine this as a horse is only the greatest under specific race conditions/trips. Arkle's dominance over Kauto at trips at 3m+ would be far greater than over shorter as Kauto is much less affective when he goes above 3 miles and his speed makes him much better than this over 3m and shorter where Arkle's dominance would have been much less. There are better horses than Kauto at 3m+ to compare against Arkle.

eric

I think the TF rating for KS is in the King George and not at further.

I don't know what Arkle's maximum rating might be based on, but the minus 30 second par at Sandown race (beating the equiv of say Barbers Shop with head in chest and 26lbs wrong) could be a good starting point (which was also over 3m).

The Gallaher Gold cup was shown on channel 4 a while back.

What was amazing, quite aside from the simply monumental task Arkle had on form, conceding so much weight,and quite aside from the ludicrous time figure he did was the visual impact of his finish.

having chased a relentlessly fast pace for over 2 miles, he then jumped past mill House and set off for home. When he got into the straight at Sandown, he virtually bolted, apparently quickening again and jumping the last two fences with amazing speed and accuracy. Honestly, when i showed the video to a friend, he thought it looked like the end of a mile flat race rather than a staying chase, so quickly was Arkle travelling.

I know there are doubters as to Arkle's merit. However the video of the Gallaher Gold cup is jaw dropping to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PDNPTJs4PU

Kauto Star is a fine horse, best of his time but comparisons with Arkle are just plain madness
-Arkle a much better novice hurdler
-better cheltnham horse (it may be idiosyncratic but it is the championship)
-Arkle superior win record
-Arkle winning handicaps off lumpy weights is something modern day trainers are too scared to even try

Like comparing Becks with Stan Matthews I'm afraid
Live in it Kauto fans

Awesome hearing the cheers at the finishing line, the "this is it" and "this is the best we've seen in a long time"..... and I was only (!!) born in 1974.

Check out Arkles jumping in the Whitbread, especially the early fences: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6kYAcEcAg&feature=related

Times for jumps races from Arkles' era when fences were harder to jump and there were usually more fences in a race than there are now  ( e.g 24 in the Gold Cup compared to 21 in 2010) should result in slower times. What does stand comparison is the superiority Arkle showed over its contemporaries that it ran against.
In my opinion, the thing that strikes me most in the 1964 Gold Cup is the way that for a whole circuit Arkle is literally fighting Taaffe and pulling his arms out. Even O'Sullevan whilst commentating on it refers to it after a circuit.
It's difficult for a horse to run well in any race when it fails to settle, but to pull the way Arkle did and then still produce devastating speed up the runin was awesome.
Arkle would have been a champion over any distance in jump racing, it was just aimed at the top prizes and the therefore the top competition which was mainly in 3m+ handicaps.
Nothing has really given me that feeling of witnessing the extraordinary since Arkle, and I feel a little sorry for those racing supporters who missed him or who cannot grasp the magnitude of Arkles' performances.

Buona Notte - Do you have anything to add on the Gallaher Gold Cup angle.  I think you were on the thread I refer to above that I cannot find.

the problem for any form student of Arkle is not that his form wasn't brilliant ; it's that he wasn't the best chaser of his era. he was joint best with flyingbolt . They never met on the racecourse because they were stablemates bu they did have identical formlines against two horses called Height of Fashion and Splash.These races came three months after the Gallagher Gold Cup and Arkle had gone up in the weights (actually its just that the others went further down) so this is probably better form.

First Flyingbolt beat Height of Fashion by a distance over 3 miles giving 28lbs on 27th jan 66 at Gowran park on heavy. Then Arkle beat height of Fashion by a neck over 3 miles at Leopardstown giving 42lbs on heavy with Splash 15 l behind. Then on 11th april 66  Flyingbolt beat height of Fashion by 2 l over 3m 2f at fairyhouse on heavy conceding 40lbs Splash was 10l behind in 3rd getting 42lbs.

They were both at their peak at that time and clearly over 2 stone better than any other horse at that time but the formbook doesn't put Arkle on a higher mark than Flyingbolt.

Flyingbolt was unfortunately not quite as long lasting as Arkle having had only one season right at the top - but it was some season. A bit like the years that saw Mill Reef and brigadier Gerard.

I think Timeform had Flyingbolt rated at 210. What is 2lbs in a 3 mile chase - no more than a slight peck on landing or a slow start.

i was born in 1964 so never saw him race,although i can remember my dad coming home from  work in tears and telling me arkle had died.ive read several books on him and seen the youtube videos so while im a massive kauto fan (the best ive ever seen on a racecourse)
i dont think hed get near arkle at any trip over 2 miles.ted walsh summed it up. "kautos a wonderful horse and on his very very best day he just might have warmed arkles arse

I saw the Gallaher Gold Cup on ITV at the time it was run.
I thought that the only film of the race had been destroyed in a massive housekeeping exercise by ITV, so I am pleased that other people now have the opportunity to view the race.
Arkle was spectacular that day but I still don't see how timings are relevant since Sandown racecourse was virtually relaid and the length of the straight increased in the 1970s.
The course is different now and I don't see the value of comparing times in National Hunt races from different eras, but I enjoy reading other peoples contributions on these matters as it usually throws up differing but interesting theories and conclusions. I have only contributed to this thread because I am an ARKLE freak.