THE RETURN OF SNA

What he won and what he beat are two different things. 2 y/o form doesn't bother me a great deal until it's carried on to the following season. He run on fast ground and got well beaten. Let's see what happens next Rusty. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Graeme, Graeme, Graeme ffs stop beating the same drum. At the time you didn't know what he beat in the RP Trophy, I didn't, AOB didn't and Murtagh didn't to name but a few. You, my friend cannot keep using the benefit of hindsight. No-one, AOB included is now claiming SNA is a superstar because the form isn't working out. We all know now the form isn't working out. But he is still in training and has only been beaten once. At least, ffs, give him the benefit of the doubt until he runs again.

There is nothing wrong with hindsight with regards to horse assessment as it leads us to a more truthful path than wrongful superlatives in regards to what a horse can achieve, as opposed to what it is have believed to of have achieved. You will find that AOB said that this particular horse 'walks on water', if that isn't a reference to super stardom then i don't know what is. You should stop trying to suffocate other peoples opinions with a sort of pertinent duplicity.

There is everything wrong with hindsight when you use it as a weapon. AOB thought SNA was a potential superstar, unlike you he hadn't the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
I would understand your miserable position if he and the press were claiming it today but they are not. They, like me, are awaiting the return to see how he is getting on and how good he is or could be.
Obviously you already know but us mere mortals don't and I am quite prepared to give him an opportunity to strut his stuff. Then, and only then will I decide where he sits in the roll of honour.
No duplicity there Graeme. Or anywhere for that matter.

"There is everything wrong with hindsight when you use it as a weapon. AOB thought SNA was a potential superstar, unlike you he hadn't the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
I would understand your miserable position if he and the press were claiming it today but they are not"




First of all there is nothing wrong with hindsight. You mention it as if it is some sort of disease. It's strange you have a problem with it. With regards to your comments on AOB not having the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, i think you'll find that he made his 'walking on water' comments this season, and i suspect it was after the guineas. Therefore hindsight doesn't apply to him as he made his comments in relation to SNA in a then present day context(after the guineas).


I'd also like to state that if hindsight is such a bad thing, then why is it used by the handicap  adjudicator to re-assess a horses rating on previous merits ?

Graeme83 Joined: 21 Sep 07
Replies: 5809 06 Oct 10 20:48 
What he won and what he beat are two different things. 2 y/o form doesn't bother me a great deal until it's carried on to the following season. He run on fast ground and got well beaten. Let's see what happens next Rusty. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.


as i stated on another thread, hes a montjeu, and no 3yr old montjeu has ever won a g1 over a mile.

so its amazing he gets so much flack for not winning as hes bred to excel over middle distances, whether he does or not is another story but he can be judged soley on his guineas run where the 5 horses have actually turned out to be multiple g1 winners, 2 being the best specialist milers in a few years so he was never going to beat them anyway with the help of hindsight, hes bred for stamina, hes not sea the stars. he still might be good.

time will tell.(if he ever runs again)

Firstly can I say that I agree wholeheartedly with the above.

But Graeme you are infuriating.
No-one is claiming the RP Trophy form has worked out.
No-one is saying there wasn't a lot of hype surrounding SNA before the Guineas.
No-one is saying he is a superstar. (Although he still could be).

Are you still with me?

Unless you clearly stated 'before' the 2000 Guineas that the RP Trophy form was bad then you are seizing it as if it is your property. It is not.

So far it looks as if AOB, Murtagh, me and many, many others were all wrong about SNA but the jury is still out and the race is not yet over. I, nor anyone else, need to apologise to you for being wrong. If we are.

You cannot seize the moral high ground because you are working with hindsight.
As far as AOB, who I think has been very humble since SNA's defeat, stating that SNA could 'walk on water' well I think that is just plain bo ll ocks. He may have thought it beforehand but I have never seen anything like that since the Guineas. As I said before that is total b ollo cks.
Figments of your imagination do not qualify.
All you are doing is slagging of a perfectly good racehorse with excellent qualifications and for no apparent reason. Why don't you just move on?
Better still why don't you predict the future again?
What do you think the future holds for SNA?
Let's see how good you are without the benefit of hindsight. After all that is all AOB, and all the others who you are slagging off, did before the Guineas.

Personally I think SNA will run again this season, I think he will win and then be put away until next year where he will be aimed at the same races his sire ran in. Starting in the Tattersal's Gold Cup at the Curragh, taking in the King George (possibly against Workforce), the Arc and the Breeders Cup.

What are your predictions?

We can then drag this thread up in a years time and compare notes. How positive is that?

"So far it looks as if AOB, Murtagh, me and many, many others were all wrong about SNA but the jury is still out and the race is not yet over. I, nor anyone else, need to apologise to you for being wrong. If we are. "



To be honest with you Rusty i was struggling to read past "are you with me?", but i soldiered on to your next sentence and you are now saying nobody need apologise to me. Needless to say any moron with two brain cells would know i've never asked for or expected any aplology, and god knows why you'd claim that. I might read the rest later but i think i owe an apology to the News of the World for comparing their propaganda to yours, because your major league when it comes to making up utter mince.

Thats OK Graeme.
I will note your first post on this thread as your opinion and leave it at that.

'A 2 bob race  and they may as well retire him him and save us the nonsense'.

I think the Guineas run from SNA was a blinder,tbh. Loads of class acts in and around him and given he probably would have wanted some ease in the ground makes it all the more creditable.

The question for me is whether he retains that form/ability and whether he is over his injury.

People need to distinguish between the expectancy and achievements. His form is absolutley fine, but he is just not Sea The Stars, which is what his connections lead people to believe.

The horse was not injured he was over trained,connections started themselves to believe what people were saying that Montjeu could not get a GR1 miler,their answer to this was to give him a lot of work,he was at one time outstanding but horses are not machines and by the time of the GNS he was over the top and ran very free,connections were very disappointed despite what the official line was,he has been given a complete break but we will all have to wait to see if SNA can come back a fresh horse or if he has had enough,his connections are to blame for his defeat not SNA's ability,the comment from O'Brien saying "we always thought he could walk on water" was once he was pulled from the Derby,comments like that go hand in hand with that outfit as always they promote potential stallions in their ownership.

I'm surprised to see him dropped straight into a 12f race

"We always thought he could walk on water"is in its self an admission that connections got it wrong,they thought that SNA could take all he was given the sad fact is he couldn't,proving that he is only a horse not a machine,his connections are as I said to blame doubt they will make the same mistake again with a class hores like SNA,the greatest trainer started to himself believe the doubters,instead of his own judgement.

"I'm surprised to see him dropped straight into a 12f race "



Could that be a sign that he could potentially be off to Hong Kong with Canford Cliffs ?

look out canford

Fair play for attempting brigust, but that's a brick wall you're hitting your head off.

Buses i was meaning on the same card/racing festival if they were both going over.

Similar racing career to yeats thus far ? Derby candidate who went missing and in fairness aiden can train any of these grandsons of northern dancer to stay 2m+, all rodas lead to ascot imo.

roads obviously, to arthur imo !!!

Graeme you think if SNA wins at the weekend that AOB will then stick him on a plane and send him half way around the world where the ground is more likely to be hard than soft?
Are you kidding? This is potentially the apple of AOB's eye and he has already run him in a racing career threatening race, no chance. No chance at all.
Better stick to hindsight, your foresight is rubbish.

I actually like Aidan O'Brien, think he is very polite and forthcoming with all the media, unlike a number of monosyllabic / fork tongued trainers who have little care for the racing public.

But wish Coolmore would dumb down the stallion marketing a bit eg "never had a horse clock a million miles an hour on the gallops like Starspangledbanner before"......
Ok, the horse was a Group 1 winning sprinter, but he wasn't that fast compared to some we have seen. Even the day he won the Golden Jubilee, a handicapper showed up half an hour in the Wokingham and ran faster.....

Not running on Sunday

Rusty you are at it again. I never said he'd send him there, i asked if it was a possibility otherwise what would be the point in him running on Sunday if he has no targets ?...can you learn to comprehend a sentence properly.....this is the 4th times you've made up rubbish on the one thread that's only on to its second page. Have you left school yet ?

Heres how I'd campaign St Nick next year, personally I don't think it was the trip that beat him in the Guineas. IMHO he either didn't train on or was overtrained as by all accounts he didn't look great before the race. My guesss would be that he is best with cut in the ground but can handle fast ground and on the whole he is fairly ground ambivalent.

I'd start him off in the Lockinge  as this is usually a weak Gr 1 and it's over a mile, get that Montjeu stat out of the way, also there is often cut.

Then depending how he got on there, he could go Tatts Gold Cup or Prince of Wales, I'd avoid the Eclipse unless he's flying as it can often be the hottest Gr1 of the year these days. I think they often run their weak links/ horses they are tring to prove have speed in the Tatts so you'd almost be worried if he lined up there.

I'd skip the Juddemont at York as the ground would be lightning and would suit Cape Blanco better as it's a front runners track. I think the Irish Champion could be made for him with the oft prevailing going.

Then stretch him out for the Arc or send him to the Breeders Cup turf. CB is their Newmarket Champion Stakes horse for me.

There could be alot of emphasis on the older horses at Coolmore next year with little enough coming through the juvenile ranks.

Might they keep F&G in training next year ala SOF,? could they give Rip another chance to be champion older horse?, CB should stay in as he has so many options and appears the least complicated horse they have.

Interesting thoughts neill.

Really can't see them trying St Nicholas Abbey over a mile again though.
As for which older horses they keep in training, that is very interesting. Has Cape Blanco done enough? Probably imo if he goes on to win the Champion Stakes at Newmarket, otherwise I'm not so sure.

Midas Touch looks to be an Irish Leger horse and maybe Melbourne Cup, probably worth trying him in the Ascot Gold Cup too. He's never going to be good enough to win a proper G1 over 1m4.

Rip Van Winkle would be great to see kept in training. Campaign him exclusively at the 10f races like Duke of Marmalade was and he could run up a few.

Would be a bit of a problem for them having Cape Blanco, Rip and St Nick all around next year when each of their best trips could turn out to be 10f. Maybe St Nick could go Coronation, King George and if he was to win one or both give him a break before the Irish Champion and Arc.

neill d Joined: 19 Aug 09
Replies: 740 08 Oct 10 14:32 
Heres how I'd campaign St Nick next year, personally I don't think it was the trip that beat him in the Guineas. IMHO he either didn't train on or was overtrained as by all accounts he didn't look great before the race. My guesss would be that he is best with cut in the ground but can handle fast ground and on the whole he is fairly ground ambivalent.

I'd start him off in the Lockinge  as this is usually a weak Gr 1 and it's over a mile, get that Montjeu stat out of the way, also there is often cut.

Then depending how he got on there, he could go Tatts Gold Cup or Prince of Wales, I'd avoid the Eclipse unless he's flying as it can often be the hottest Gr1 of the year these days. I think they often run their weak links/ horses they are tring to prove have speed in the Tatts so you'd almost be worried if he lined up there.

I'd skip the Juddemont at York as the ground would be lightning and would suit Cape Blanco better as it's a front runners track. I think the Irish Champion could be made for him with the oft prevailing going.

Then stretch him out for the Arc or send him to the Breeders Cup turf. CB is their Newmarket Champion Stakes horse for me.

There could be alot of emphasis on the older horses at Coolmore next year with little enough coming through the juvenile ranks.

Might they keep F&G in training next year ala SOF,? could they give Rip another chance to be champion older horse?, CB should stay in as he has so many options and appears the least complicated horse they have.


the trip DEFINITELY played a factor, a significant factor in him not winning. NO 3 year old montjeu has ever won over a mile in a g2 event, coincidence? no.

ahem *g1 event*

I'd have thought the way he was working, pace wouldn't have been much of a problem for him at that stage of his career, all the races he won as a 2yo were slowly run affairs with a sprint finish

Look away now Rusty, he won't be running on Sunday. It's not even a given that he will run at 4 either as they said they will see what happens. I also now think they had no intentions of running him on Sunday either, and they were just giving everyone a reminder that he's still here. Not unless the blinkered think that they genuinely thought he'd run after being out for months then pulled him out a mere 48 hours later. If you want a prediction then i predict he will be retired. You so vociferous now.

You're not so vociferous now i meant to type.

st nick being put away for the gold cup?cheltenham that is[;)]

IMO he'll only race at 4 if they fail to get an acceptable offer for him.

Yes it is disappointing SNA isn't running on Sunday but I would rather they waited until he is 100% than run him when there are doubts. It must also be disappointing for the connections as well as his supporters. But there is sill plenty of time. No-one died.
As I said earlier in this thread he has not proven himself to be a superstar as yet but that doesn't mean it is out of the question. He has only run four times and in those four runs he has achieved far more than the vast majority of racehorses in training. I very much look forward to him running again because our sport can only benefit from his like.
As far as Graeme is concerned  I tried as hard as is possible to put forward a good case in SNA's defence but sadly my words fell on deaf ears. Never mind.

What reasons have they given for not running .. accorind to Johnny the other day this race would be spot on for him and he'd be working like his oldself at home ..

I think he'll be retired ..

I saw the JM interview and he did seem pretty positive didn't he Sin?
I just think they thought so highly of him and got it so badly wrong by running him in the Guineas they are afraid to get it wrong again. I do think he will run again and I can't see them selling him. That leaves the conundrum of gong to stud. I really don't think they would want to send him to stud under a cloud.
It was alright for Makfi and Zebedee because they had achieved probably their best rating. I honestly think that they think SNA can achieve higher.

Don't make my laugh Rusty. You tried your best to put forward a case you say, which evidently included making up four fabrications in only 2 pages. Now the shield is out to go on defence mode and say they are now right to not run him. Propaganda after propaganda. They had no intentions of running him and he will probably never run again.

It's damage limitation for this horse now. Has there ever been a champion 2-year-old who failed to enhance his reputation at 3, then raced successfully at 4?

Graeme, as far as horse racing is concerned, you are like a dose of ringworm. A nasty and persitent rash to be avoided by everybody at all times and of absolutely no use to anybody.

i think the overtrained element is stretching it too far.
The horse had hardly had a race as a 2 yr old winning all races comfortably  appearing to have plenty in the tank.
Aiden is adept @ getting 2000 gns contenders on seasonal debut bang on for the big day
The rest of the Obrien string where running as tho they clearly needed the seasonal debut.
Hard to believe he had 99% well undercooked & 1 overtrained


The fact he hadnt had to battle as a 2 yr old plus the fact he was up against(with hindsight) some serious milers who had all had the benefit of a run on ground probably a tad too quick for him
Again with hindsight as Sint says the expectation was  2 great, and under the circumstance he ran a fair race.

You can't get ringworm because you're made of wood, Pinocchio. Anymore lies from you and you nose with end up SNA's khyber, which would of course cause him and injury thus forcing him in to early retirement. Never fret though, because he has plenty of speed and they would still think a lot of him to the extent that his career could be resurrected at the breeders cup sprint.

Aidan says he's staying in training next year.

Thanks Tavaris. Did he say anything about his condition/ reason why he didn't run? Did he sound positive?

Did sound very positive to be fair, he still holds the colt in the highest of esteem from the way he talks about him.

He said he was just about ready for the race last week but wasn't quite and the only reason they were going to run him was as a prep for a bigger race. They made the decision that he's more that likely (you know Aidan doesn't deal in definites!) to stay in training as a 4yo so they aren't going to rush him back this season for a race that they haven't had a prep for.

Thanks Tavaris.

Just caught the middle to end of it, home from college, seems like Boycie gave him quite a tough ride in the interview

Boycie tried to get it out of him re his runner in the Dewhurst. He did well there imo. If it was Enzo conducting the interview he would of rolled over in the booth and asked Aidan to tickle his belly.

Has anyone heard any news or plans for SNA this year?

Resner,
I had exactly the same question? That 2000 guineas has been a graveyard for a few of the runners. Number of horses that have run again since

SNA was in the racecourse gallops at the Curragh 2 weeks ago, I believe.

tis tue and looked v well in himself apparently! think hes still capable of running well at middle distances if given the chance! that was a hot guineas with the 1st 3 all winning g1 mile races, beating even goldikova, canford  beating rip etc... hes a montjeu, in hindsight it was a good run from him! perhaps not the supestar aidan thought but suely capable of winning races!

Running on Sunday according to reports. Will at least be given a entry.

brilliant, thanks!

Assume that's the same race fame and glory ran in last year. Be interesting to see how he goes as there's no way he'll be anywhere near fully wound up. If he wins it could be a good sign for the season ahead. Also be interesting to see whether it looks like they would stay at 10f or go up to 12f. Hope he runs.

they seem to have their horses readier first time out this yr than previous seasons so if he does run a comfortable win would be necessary for anyone to retain the faith.

I agree that there horses seem to be more forward this year than last but I wouldn't be writing this one of after one run if he's not past the post first. He's been off a long time, and no doubt has a fair number of targets in a long season so there's no chance they'll have him anywhere near his best

*their

well i suppose a 'comfortable win' was a slight exaggeration!

I'm bored by them already and the season hasn't even started. Will they or won't they. Maybe aye, maybe naw. Everyone must wait for the men in black to tell everyone to look and listen all the time as if we're youngsters crossing a road. Could run this week, next month or maybe even next century.

graeme if your so bored by SNA and his connections,why have u been posting constantly on this thread?if u had no interest in them u wouldnt post at all

I post because they run in our races. What makes you think i've no interest in them ? I said i'm bored by them, i didn't say i was bored by all of their horses. I'm talking about the men in black hype machine. I'm not one of these punters who likes people just because i backed one of their horses. I took Starspangledbanner at 16s last season, and i still don't like them much. When i first watched flats i loved watching out for their colours. As the years go on they just become more tedious. I for one hope they win nothing, unless i've backed it.

He's entered in the Alleged Stakes on Sunday, probably the same route as Fame and Glory last year. Probably about the same level of ability too.

That'd make him a good horse then.

Very interesting to hear he's coming back, they have had long enough to figure out what was ailing him. Could be one of the horses which is overbet in his first run back

I saw St Nicholas Abbey at these works the past 2 years and he is a much bigger horse than he was. He was quite small last year and you never of thought their was such a big engine inside that small frame.

Someone mentioned Fame and Glory above and he runs in the Vintage Crop 1m6f race before a tilt at the Ascot Gold Cup.

The first race back ain't a betting race for me, definitely a watch and see whether the potential is still there. Besides will probably be a short price. That doesn't mean he has to win but he needs to show enough to suggest that when fully wound up he'll be a force at the top level

Given what F&G did in the race last year when he finished 3rd and Murtagh never moved in the saddle, i'd not be surprised if he is beat but then wins many races thereafter.

Confirmed to run on Sunday in the Alleged

look out frankel

possible show down forthcoming with Workforce then, provided he does not flop at the weekend.

if he does it nicely in the Alleged on sunday,would they chance
a clash against Workforce in Tatts Gold Cup at the Curragh?

They often seem to put what they consider to be their best 4 yr old in the tattersalls so it would be a good indication of how highly they still rate him. I wonder how bold they'll be if workforce is due to run. Fame and glory had two runs last year beforehand you would think that's a possibility to get some more experience and make up for lost time

the Tatts Gold Cup is quite presitgious in breeding terms I believe so they would definitily send him if good enough. It is exactly why Stoute likes the race too.

Tatts/Rog Gold CUp field is often incredibly weak and a good way of getting a G1 10f race on the CV

Yes St Nicholas Abbey will be aimed at the Tatts Gold Cup. Jan Vermeer might run but very much doubt it. The Tatts Gold Cup is the big aim for him.

So You think is being aimed for the middle of the season races. Jan Vermeer will be scarficed for St Nick and Await the Dawn probaly be aimed abroad. Although i like Await the Dawn to run in this but probaly asking far too much

Ruby is quite right when he said that the horse was quite small last year.I was a big fan of the horse but was really disappointed when I saw him in the flesh on Guineas day.He did not look one bit imposing unlike George Washington and I will be laying him given half decent opposition on Sunday.

Surely unaccompanied is a huge each way bet to nothing?

thoughts??



he'll make a grand sausage someday!

ballydoyle spin maching now in operation,will put it down to the ground.I think that will probably be the last we see of him on the track(unless they give it one more go on less taxing ground)

well done dan.

yes possibly sj although there is still a possibility he'll improve for fitness and a step up in trip.

Not that i'd be a backer or anything, he could just be a plodder in the future.

Avoid for the time being.

There didn't seem any real reason why this horse didn't run again last year after Newmarket - never a good sign. This will never win another race.

cant have him sint at the moment,how ever much that was  needed etc,that was a woeful effort.
Lets hope he can bounce back,but it will be a swerve from me for the time being

just back from the curragh, they had SNA doing laps of the preparde ring a good 45min before his race, he was preparading with the runners for the Gladness, SNA looked very small, though coat looked great.
i was very concered thaqt he was preparading so early and that he wasnt much bigger than emulous(a filly who hardly gets a mile). He just didnt seem like a typical Montjeu older horse.

No obvious excuses today, so unless anything comes to light that was a little disappointing all things considered. Wouldn't write him off just yet personally but will be interesting to see where they go next with him. You would think they will look for another race before the tattersalls or give it a miss altogether.

Workforce will chew him up and spit him out in the TGC

who will be there TGC runner if they are preparing F&G for the Gold Cup ? Jan Vermeer ?

Await The Dawn maybe one to consider

The irony of course is when the question was asked on here, "What next for SNA?", following his Guineas run, it invited the usual waggish reply was "Triumph Hurdle".........

not a bad suggestion in hindsight

Inside a tin of dog food is the place for this nag. He'll "win" again at Shelbourne Park or Harolds Cross inside a greyhound.

Lots seem to think SNA is just a dog only capable of pony rides at the beach,below is my opinion of the horse for what its worth if any of you understand horses then you may also understand the breeding side of it including certain stallion traits passed onto his stock.

Prima Donna     04 Apr 11 12:44 
I agree with that Rip Van,imo the horse was ruined last year by his connections,as you point out his awkward head carriage being typical of Montjeu along with there temp'remember Motivator?I think M.Bell did well with him as in a way horses like that you have to kid them along a bit,with SNA I think his connections started to believe the doubt that a son of Montjeu could not win a GR1 over a mile much was made of this theory at the time,all the time thinking they had a super star on there hands and one that poss'could of been better than STS,I was not at NMKT for last years GNS but Slick was there and said to me she felt SNA looked razor sharp he looked ultra fit it seems he had had plenty of work,that's where imo they got it wrong with him as I reckon by the time of his GNS run the horse had chucked it he'd had enough and I'm not sure he will ever show his 2 y'old form again.
I did once or twice see him working and he was doing great work during his 3 y'ols spring but I think being by Mountjeu they made a serious error in training him fairly hard for his GNS run,we all know it backfired on them a bit but you could say "that's racing" but I also know horses are very much individuals..........even the greatest trainer can and surly has learned that they are not machines and what's been rubber stamped as well is most not all the Montjeu's of this world have a brain SNA being a prime example.

Were you watching Graeme?

What a training performance that was....up their with Mount Nelson in AOB Scrapbook. Can't believe he won that!!!!!

Hugely impressive there at Chester and seemingly right back to his best, showing that brilliant acceleration we saw in the Racing Post Trophy.  Anyone who wrote him off after last year's Guineas and after his comeback run at the Curragh should be eating humble pie.  On that showing he's likely to make an impact at Group 1 level this year and it will be great to see him in races like the Coronation Cup, King George and the Arc.  Welcome back SNA!

Hear, hear jamesp. They werent keeping him in training for the hell of it were they?!!

talk about come on a ton for a race.

I wrote him off....I thought he be retired and never run again.

Well done Aidan!!

yup wb st nick. impressive.

I wrote him off completely - great to see him come back - though it hurt my pocket a bit . There have been a lot of champion 2 year olds who've done nothing at 3 - but I don't remember any of them coming back to win a Group race at 4.

Good to see him back in decent form, though I wouldn't get too carried away just yet. Looks like the Coronation Cup might be next, be great if he takes on Workforce.