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09 Sep 10
01:17
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01 Sep 10
imo
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If you think that then now is the time to be backing him, before the French trials throw up eff all.
This time last year F&G was the same price he is today with STS in the race. There is no STS this year.
AOB has done the right things by this horse this year and missing the Foy is definitely the best thing. Wrong time to be giving this horse a hard race.
Add to that the main opposition looks in trouble or is particularly threadbare and a big plus is that Lads are the stand out shortest price.
I suggest that on Monday he will be shorter everywhere and looks to have had the ideal prep.
This time last year F&G was the same price he is today with STS in the race. There is no STS this year.
AOB has done the right things by this horse this year and missing the Foy is definitely the best thing. Wrong time to be giving this horse a hard race.
Add to that the main opposition looks in trouble or is particularly threadbare and a big plus is that Lads are the stand out shortest price.
I suggest that on Monday he will be shorter everywhere and looks to have had the ideal prep.
f and g is a paceless plodder who doesnt have the turn of foot
you need to win an arc. The french three year olds are top
quality this year and represent much better value
you need to win an arc. The french three year olds are top
quality this year and represent much better value
'This time last year F&G was the same price he is today with STS in the race. There is no STS this year.'
he's not exactly covered himself in glory since he was 2nd fav for last years arc, why should he be a shorter price this year? he wouldnt have won the arc last year with no STS.
he's not exactly covered himself in glory since he was 2nd fav for last years arc, why should he be a shorter price this year? he wouldnt have won the arc last year with no STS.
Why do people keep talking about the link with Coolmore/Ladbrokes etc .. it's biggest red herring there is.
Can someone please point out what Fame and Glory has done to merit being at the head of the betting?
Looking at his post Derby form, what has he achieved in terms of actual form?
- Beat a desperate field in the Irish Derby. Not one horse that finished behind him has won a group race since then.
- Comprehensively beaten by Sea the Stars in the Irish champion, where the only horse of any real substance that he finished ahead of was the stamina deficient Mastercraftsman. Casual Conquest was wong that day and would have no business in Arc either. Again not one horse that finished behind Fame that day has won a group race since.
- Well beaten in the Arc with no apparent excuses.
- Well beaten in the Irish champion. You can argue however that he was over the top so I would be prepared to sett his run to one side.
- Betaen on his debut this season, when he got a pathetic ride.
- Won a dreadful group 3 on his next outing.
- Won a poor renewal of the Tattersalls Gold Cup with only Chinese White being a credible opponent and she would get lapped in a top class group 1 (rather than a Pretty Polly which is a group 1 in name only).
- Had the run of the race when unimpressively winning the Coronation Cup at Epsom from Sariska and High Heeled (both of whom are better with give in the ground).
- Won what can only be described as a shameful renewal of the Royal Whip last time.
While he has a credible record in Group races, there is nothing in his form that he is capable of winning an Arc unless it is one of the worst renewals ever staged. The 2 French 3 year olds look very decent and hopefully they can confirm it at the weekend. They both look much better than Fame to my eye and one of two others look to be lurking there (depending on conditions) that could and should beat him as well.
Looking at his post Derby form, what has he achieved in terms of actual form?
- Beat a desperate field in the Irish Derby. Not one horse that finished behind him has won a group race since then.
- Comprehensively beaten by Sea the Stars in the Irish champion, where the only horse of any real substance that he finished ahead of was the stamina deficient Mastercraftsman. Casual Conquest was wong that day and would have no business in Arc either. Again not one horse that finished behind Fame that day has won a group race since.
- Well beaten in the Arc with no apparent excuses.
- Well beaten in the Irish champion. You can argue however that he was over the top so I would be prepared to sett his run to one side.
- Betaen on his debut this season, when he got a pathetic ride.
- Won a dreadful group 3 on his next outing.
- Won a poor renewal of the Tattersalls Gold Cup with only Chinese White being a credible opponent and she would get lapped in a top class group 1 (rather than a Pretty Polly which is a group 1 in name only).
- Had the run of the race when unimpressively winning the Coronation Cup at Epsom from Sariska and High Heeled (both of whom are better with give in the ground).
- Won what can only be described as a shameful renewal of the Royal Whip last time.
While he has a credible record in Group races, there is nothing in his form that he is capable of winning an Arc unless it is one of the worst renewals ever staged. The 2 French 3 year olds look very decent and hopefully they can confirm it at the weekend. They both look much better than Fame to my eye and one of two others look to be lurking there (depending on conditions) that could and should beat him as well.
the one thing you have missed out is that he is being specifically
laid out for this race that will be the major difference between this year and last where remember despite being over the top was only beaten 4 lengths.horses that go to the arc on an afterthought rarely win.
laid out for this race that will be the major difference between this year and last where remember despite being over the top was only beaten 4 lengths.horses that go to the arc on an afterthought rarely win.
Specicially laid out is one thing.
Where is the form other than possibly the Derby second, which suggests that he will win though.
He will have to improve on anything that he achieved last year to win the race.
Is he being laid out or has he had a problem as well, is a question that will not be answered.
Where is the form other than possibly the Derby second, which suggests that he will win though.
He will have to improve on anything that he achieved last year to win the race.
Is he being laid out or has he had a problem as well, is a question that will not be answered.
what has the form to beat him because i dont see anything other than french wanabees.
FFS!!
This is like finding out Money Tree has tipped your fancy for a race.
This is like finding out Money Tree has tipped your fancy for a race.
These French wannabees are exactly the type that are on a upward curve that can win the race.
Both are lightly raced and improving now that they have been stepped up to 12f.
Similar to horses like Sagamix. Peintre Celebre and Rail Link, they are improving 3 year olds with solid 12f form in the book.
Obviously they have to improve, but the likelihood of them doing so is pretty high.
There is nothing to suggest that Fame and Glory is an improved horse this year and I cannot recall that many horses that took a major step forward on their 15th start.
It is all about opinions as johnn summed up earlier and mine is that he is not good enough to win an Arc unless it is very much a substandard affair. If none of the lightly raced horses improve, then it may well turn out to be that way, but I would doubt that will be the case.
Both are lightly raced and improving now that they have been stepped up to 12f.
Similar to horses like Sagamix. Peintre Celebre and Rail Link, they are improving 3 year olds with solid 12f form in the book.
Obviously they have to improve, but the likelihood of them doing so is pretty high.
There is nothing to suggest that Fame and Glory is an improved horse this year and I cannot recall that many horses that took a major step forward on their 15th start.
It is all about opinions as johnn summed up earlier and mine is that he is not good enough to win an Arc unless it is very much a substandard affair. If none of the lightly raced horses improve, then it may well turn out to be that way, but I would doubt that will be the case.
Sariska is better with cut is one of the biggest misinterpretations in racing imo
i agree fft the perfect ground for sariska is just the slow side of good with no jar.
However in bottomless ground plenty of horses have no chance - she would be fine with it.
Leaving aside the horrible Buick ride, Stake and Chips, I think High Heeled would have a very decent chance in bottomless ground.
i have been to the last 7 arcs lads and only one was run in soft that was hurricane runs and a lot of people argued it wasnt even soft that day .the most common ground on arc day is good or faster.
the french going reports are a joke one of the years they had it as good to soft and benbaun won out the park followed by dylan thomas and a few course records went that day as well.
the french going reports are a joke one of the years they had it as good to soft and benbaun won out the park followed by dylan thomas and a few course records went that day as well.
Sariska's Irish Derby on that ground was more an inconvenience to the others than being perfect for her
She has loads of class fast ground form
She has loads of class fast ground form
Sariska acts of firm ground because she has the class. She is much better with Cut.
Put it this way .. when was the last time she raced on ground with Cut in it ?
Put it this way .. when was the last time she raced on ground with Cut in it ?
Keynes, the one paced plodder you are talking about has won once over 8f, 5 times over 10f, 1 over 11f and 2 over 12f. Four Group 1 wins and 2 seconds. This year beaten once in 5 runs.
The 'speed' horses from France:
Behkabad has won once over 6f, 2 over 8f, 1 over 9f and 1 over 12f. Beaten 2 from 4. One Group 1 won, no seconds.
Plantuer has won 2 over 8f and 1 over 11f. Beaten 2 from 3. No Group 1 wins and 2 seconds.
Neither of the French horses can be considered unexposed with 7 and 6 runs between them.
I am not saying F&G will win but I think the price will be different on Monday.
Whoever wins between Behkabad and Plantuer on Sunday and what happens in the Foy (Byword) and the Prix Vermeille (Midday etc)
will determine what price F & G will be on Monday. I think he will be shorter. I, off course, may be wrong.
The 'speed' horses from France:
Behkabad has won once over 6f, 2 over 8f, 1 over 9f and 1 over 12f. Beaten 2 from 4. One Group 1 won, no seconds.
Plantuer has won 2 over 8f and 1 over 11f. Beaten 2 from 3. No Group 1 wins and 2 seconds.
Neither of the French horses can be considered unexposed with 7 and 6 runs between them.
I am not saying F&G will win but I think the price will be different on Monday.
Whoever wins between Behkabad and Plantuer on Sunday and what happens in the Foy (Byword) and the Prix Vermeille (Midday etc)
will determine what price F & G will be on Monday. I think he will be shorter. I, off course, may be wrong.
My impression of him last year was that he would make up to be the natural successor to Yeats, no bad thing. A few handpicked 10f victories do nothing to dissaude me from that view. It's possible for a 'Cup' horse to run well in the Arc and he may well improve on last years placing, but an unlikely winner imv.
"Neither of the French horses can be considered unexposed with 7 and 6 runs between them.
I am not saying F&G will win but I think the price will be different on Monday."
I thought that the winner of the Niel would get most of the attention over the weekend, which would raise the likelihood of F and G being displaced from favoritism.
In any case, I dont believe he will place, let along win. All year O Brien has hand-picked poor group races for him, which he duly won, but one cant be impressed by that form. Most importantly, he came 6th in the Arc last year (his ultimate trial), beaten comprehensively by Youmzain and Cavalyman. So he doesnt even deserve to be ahead of them in the market, let along the fav.
I am not saying F&G will win but I think the price will be different on Monday."
I thought that the winner of the Niel would get most of the attention over the weekend, which would raise the likelihood of F and G being displaced from favoritism.
In any case, I dont believe he will place, let along win. All year O Brien has hand-picked poor group races for him, which he duly won, but one cant be impressed by that form. Most importantly, he came 6th in the Arc last year (his ultimate trial), beaten comprehensively by Youmzain and Cavalyman. So he doesnt even deserve to be ahead of them in the market, let along the fav.
Fame and Glory was given no chance in the Arc last year. There is no way he could possibly have won the race from his position turning into the straight, he doesn't have the turn of pace for that.
Aidan obviously realised this and changed tactics for the Coronation, had he been ridden as positively in the Arc last year he'd probably have been 2nd. He's already put Sariska, Youmzain and Cavalryman in their places this season comprehensively. He is clearly, in my opinion, by far the best of the older horses, is being trained specifically for the race and is a worthy favourite for the race at this stage.
Maybe one of the French 3 year olds will turn out to be a superstar, but we can't be sure any of them will yet, and if they do which one of the likely 3?
Aidan obviously realised this and changed tactics for the Coronation, had he been ridden as positively in the Arc last year he'd probably have been 2nd. He's already put Sariska, Youmzain and Cavalryman in their places this season comprehensively. He is clearly, in my opinion, by far the best of the older horses, is being trained specifically for the race and is a worthy favourite for the race at this stage.
Maybe one of the French 3 year olds will turn out to be a superstar, but we can't be sure any of them will yet, and if they do which one of the likely 3?
the most likely winner of the arc imo. was over the top last year i got this horse wrong at start of season calling him a plodder but the horse is a superstar plain and simple he gets the job done.
Thought the 'Superstar' label was reserved for Millreef ,Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars and horses of that calibre , rather than just one of the better ones around in an average (at best) year. Can't see what F&G has done since the start of the season to suggest he is up with them.
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Fame and Glory was given no chance in the Arc last year. There is no way he could possibly have won the race from his position turning into the straight, he doesn't have the turn of pace for that.
Maybe just doesn't have the tactical speed to get himself into a better position earlier ?
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Fame and Glory was given no chance in the Arc last year. There is no way he could possibly have won the race from his position turning into the straight, he doesn't have the turn of pace for that.
Maybe just doesn't have the tactical speed to get himself into a better position earlier ?
i think snow fairy is better than fame and glory tbh
how is snow fairy better than fame and glory lol. imo snow fairy is a very modeate oaks winner and would get laughed at by sariska the same way midday laughed at her giving twn pound to her. snow fairy never win another group 1
I dont see how people can suggest this horse is being trained ''specifically'' for the race. Aidan likes his best horses to win multiple group races, and it is therefore very hard to suggest he is targeting one race over the other. F & G has had 5 races this season , not a confidence booster and a prep.
aiden has already declared he is training the horse with the arc in mind .
i.e not peaking it to soon.
i.e not peaking it to soon.
the 1 horse that is being specifically trained for the race is sariska
I think there maybe more than 1 with the "Arc" as the main target
laughable quote once more dananders
well played geoff
well played geoff
I am convinced that the term "Group 1 Horse" is thoroughly misleading. For many years now a significant number of Group 1 races have been poorly contested with small fields and a distinct lack of overseas challengers. A truly satisfactory Group 1 would attract the best horses from Europe and overseas, hopefully both 3 year-olds and older. As that is invariably not the case horses clearly below the top draw are able to mop up Group 1's at will often only beating stable companions and maybe 1 or 2 other serious contenders. F & G clearly comes into this category, indeed it is an art-form near perfected by Coolmore. They are not the only offenders and the plethora of Group 1's positively encourages it.
Thank heaven that as far as middle distances are concerned the Arc at least remains a clear cut above the rest.
Thank heaven that as far as middle distances are concerned the Arc at least remains a clear cut above the rest.
I think you're completely wrong in highlighting Coolmore as being offenders in mopping up cheap Group races DD.
I can't think of any decent G1 in England in the last few years that they haven't sent a challenger. If none of the British or French trainers want to send one over for the Tattersalls Gold Cup or Irish Derby or Irish Champion Stakes, what can they do about it? Pay the entry fee for them just to boost the race?
You see plenty of British trainers and Godolphin in particular sending horses to Germany or Italy in search of the really cheap G1, you expect Coolmore to send their best horses to these places too just to make the races better?
Another thing too, when Coolmore didn't send a horse to the Moulin last weekend the race ended up being a farce because there was no pace in it.
I can't think of any decent G1 in England in the last few years that they haven't sent a challenger. If none of the British or French trainers want to send one over for the Tattersalls Gold Cup or Irish Derby or Irish Champion Stakes, what can they do about it? Pay the entry fee for them just to boost the race?
You see plenty of British trainers and Godolphin in particular sending horses to Germany or Italy in search of the really cheap G1, you expect Coolmore to send their best horses to these places too just to make the races better?
Another thing too, when Coolmore didn't send a horse to the Moulin last weekend the race ended up being a farce because there was no pace in it.
Its not their fault but the races they mop up are often weakly contested and Coolmore are hardly averse to going in mob-handed. It's also hardly surprising that a Group 1 rarely goes by without a Coolmore entry, with the volume of blue blood (ask SOF if you dont believe me) at their disposal each year they have to run them all somewhere!
My main point remains that far too many Group 1's are not worthy of the name, unlike the Arc which invariably is.
Dylan Thomas was a horse I felt similar reservations about. He ran in 6 Group 1s as a 4 year old without ever facing a double figure field. He won 3 and was 2nd the other 3 times beaten by decent but not absolutely top class animals. However when it really counted he was able to win his Arc. If F&G is able to do the same I will salute him as well.
My main point remains that far too many Group 1's are not worthy of the name, unlike the Arc which invariably is.
Dylan Thomas was a horse I felt similar reservations about. He ran in 6 Group 1s as a 4 year old without ever facing a double figure field. He won 3 and was 2nd the other 3 times beaten by decent but not absolutely top class animals. However when it really counted he was able to win his Arc. If F&G is able to do the same I will salute him as well.
Good points Tavaris, I think F&G is the most likely winner btw, second to STS in the derby is the best 1m4f form around
I see what you're saying Neill, but if that were so, how is 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th to STS over 1m4f in a stronger race over C&D not better form?
Thats all fair enough DD, I see it as a good thing though when Coolmore go mob handed so I think we just differ there. Ie. they're not afraid to race their better horses against each other and its unusual that they don't have a runner or runners in a good race.
Dessie;
2nd beat comfortably in the Coronation this year.
3rd beat comfortably in the Coronation this year
4th retired
5th retired
For Fame and Glory to win obviously he'll need everything to fall into place on the day, ie. not GF ground, strong early pace, good positioning and first run on his main challengers.
Dessie;
2nd beat comfortably in the Coronation this year.
3rd beat comfortably in the Coronation this year
4th retired
5th retired
For Fame and Glory to win obviously he'll need everything to fall into place on the day, ie. not GF ground, strong early pace, good positioning and first run on his main challengers.
I thought he was over the top come Arc Day tbh, ran in two derby trials early last year to peak for the Derby at Epsom, he was on the way down after that imo, he started too early to win Arc and was only beaten 6 lengths anyway. Youmzain would have done it by now if he was going to and Cavalryman has lost the plot. Dar re mi gone. Sariska a poossibility if ground was right. I would have been interested in Midday, I don't rate the French 3yo colts any more than ours.
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