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Frankel
Frankel
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You seem to have missed the point.
I made an assumption to show that you were contradicting yourself a little - trying to pick a hole in Frankel on the basis that he didnt improve THAT much from debut - when applying the same general theory to Rainbow Springs would make Frankel a superstar and would give him the best 2yo form of the year. |
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no i didnt say that he didnt improve that much.
i was saying surely he didnt improved THAT much , as in he was so impressive from 1st to 2nd run, like the gulf was so huge!its almost hard to believe and take it literally. |
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Zilaz
l lets look at the list you have assembled - and thanks for the work you did to aid our debate. 2209,8 and 6 all won I don't remember the Snow thingy, but Refuse To bend was never likely to stay, Hawkwing ditto and still rewarded each way punters by coming second, Golan stayed but was just not up to it, an odd horse Golan, king od Kings was a very fast bred son of Saddlers Wells who had no chance at all of staying, Entrprneur again an obvious non stayer, Pennekamp might have won, but injured himself very badly, Rodrigo was again not bred to stay, being fast bred son of El gran Senor (I think from memory), Mr Baileys had no chance fo staying on breeding and style of running too, mystiko again was bred to get 7 furlongs or a mile and had zero chance of getting the trip, Generous and Nashwan both won easily, Dancing brave should have won, and finished second, Shadeed and Bairn were more or less sprint bred and again could bot be considered as Guineas winners, and Doyoun was son of Mill Reef out of a sprinting mare and was already weakening at the end of the 2000 Guineas he won - he had no chance in the Derby at all, and El Gran Senor was a cracking horse finishing second although he never stayed. So of the horses you mention of the ones really bred to stay, one was a filly (Cape Verdi, one was Golan, one got injured and 1 was second. 5 won! of stying bred Derby runners in the 2000 Guineas that is a strike rate of around 65%. The average odds are splendid at that sort of strike rate, and as I say its a really excellent long term system. |
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Snow Ridge was the Dettori one, Zil. From what I remember about Entrepreneur, he was considered more a Derby than a Guineas prospect as a 2yo.
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LOL, Cry, its easy after the event, if these were all blatant non stayers how come they were all single figure odds
Hawk wing was around 6/4, not a lot of punters were rewarded ew Entrepeneur was by Sadlers wells out of a exclusive Order mare who was nailed on to such a extent by the breeding pundits that he was odds on El Gran Senor won at the Curragh beating a Arc winner Doyoun was still placed Should have won still doesnt get paid even nowdays |
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Zilzal all that was from my poor old memory so forgive me one mistake like Entrepreneur.
2000 Guineas winners do look sexy in the Derby market but there is honestly no doubt in my mind that a horse definitely bred to get 12 furlongs that run well in the 2000 Guineas are excellent betting material when they get a mileand a half to run over. Its pretty obvious why too. If a horse is bred to be better over 12 furlongs and is already pretty sh1t hot over 8, the chances of somethign exceptional emerging over 12 is really very high. of course there will be exceptions, but its the homest truth that I hammered Generous, Nashwan, New Approach and Sea the Stars but never had a bean on the other Guineas runners in the Derby that you mention. Remind me after next year's Guineas and we'll discuss which ones really qualify next season. Just out if interest Timeform have Dream Ahead rated 130 a pound clear of Frankel. I suppose that's fair enough, but I would imagine that 6 furlongs on very soft ground may have been the reason for the impressive win and cannot think he has much chance against Frankel. |
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Cecil: Frankel as good a juvenile as we've had
By Tony Elves 8:37AM 8 OCT 2010 FRANKEL will have his final workout for the Group 1 Dubai Dewhurst Stakes on October 16 on Saturday with his trainer Henry Cecil repeating his belief that on Friday that unbeaten colt is "as good a two-year-old as we have had". Imperious winner of the Juddmonte Royal Lodge Stakes on his latest start, Frankel cantered up Warren Hill Polytrack on Friday morning before crossing the Long Hill grass with an older lead horse. Cecil is delighted with the progress the Khalid Abdullah-owned son of Galileo is making with the trainer particularly impressed by the colt's growing maturity. He said: "Frankel is in good order and seems to be growing up a lot and settling better. He wears a crossed noseband but we'll be able to take that off next year as he's doing very well. After the Royal Lodge he's been making more and more progress." Henry Cecil Following Frankel's ten-length demolition of his four opponents in the Juddmonte Royal Lodge, Cecil described him as "the best two-year-old I've had since Wollow" and the trainer was happy to repeat those sentiments on Friday. "You go back to horses like Wollow and Diesis and he's as good a two-year-old as we have had over the past few years and I don't know if we've had a two-year-old as progressive." Frankel is the short-priced favourite for both the 2,000 Guineas and the Investec Derby and the opening Classic of the season at Newmarketis firmly on his agenda. Cecil said: "If he happens to win the Dewhurst then we'll go straight for the [2,000] Guineas. Bubbles burst but let's hope this one doesn't." |
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^^ i thought we all knew that already? are they gonna keep doing it every week?slow news day. getting almost coolmoresque imo.
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Clearly wants 1m4f doesn't he ffs
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He will get 1m4f standing on his head. We have a rare animal here the all-time greats got both Classic trips and this is one of them imo. Would love to see him Guineas, Derby, other then Arc. Will be the great horse people will remember HRC by. Mainly fillies he hasnt had a colt as good as this he could win everything next season a la Sea The Stars.
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I have never seen a horse stand on it's head - I think Steinbeck may have stood on his own tail though
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The big difference is nobody thought STS would be an all time great as a 2yo. With a few exceptions, most of the ones that are predicted as such don't live up to expectations.
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Cecil targeting Guineas and St James Palace.
Finally puts a nonsense to those that believe he'll get a mile and a half. |
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Wont make the same mistake he did with Wollow.
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If they stick to a mile not half as much to look forward too with him as with Sea The Stars. St James Palace or the Derby and Arc sure HRAC will give the horse a chance to prove himself at both Classic trips. Dont think beating Rip Van Winkle over again is going to be much of a spectacle otherwise.
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Good to see HC/Teddy have his 3 yo career mapped out, particularly in view of the fact that 2 weeks ago they didnt know if he was running in the Dewhurst, the R Port or neither
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"finally puts a nonsense to those who believe he will stay a mile and a half" - this is an opinion and there is an argument which you make Eric.
However he is bred to stay, and when they are so bred they usually do. What was most impressive today was the fact that he was "lit up" early by being squeezed and bumped at the start, preventing him settling at all. Everything will depend on how he progresses next season. Sometimes a horse's need for a trip can become much more marked in their second season with Henry - Diminuendo looked like a sprinter till the Fillies Mile at 2 and then she was too slow for a mile at 3. He is better than that but it said nothing about his chance of staying 12 furlongs - he won on pretty soft ground over a mile and will pretty obviously stay at least 10 furlongs |
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He was bumped at the start which the jockey and trainer reported set the horse alight relaxes really well normally as shown in the Royal Lodge.
Queally said: "He's a superstar, and it's nice to have done it when it mattered. He's done it well and he's very special. "He got a bit of a bump on leaving stalls and that set him alight, but he quickened up well and put the race to bed. He wandered a bit off a true line on the ground, but we'll forgive him that!" Cecil added: "He'd been relaxing well at home but that bump set him alight - in his work he is very relaxed, but when you get a nasty bump like that it makes a difference. |
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I largely agree COT.
Surely he now goes straight to the Guineas and only after that will his future targets be decided. If he scrapes home the mile route might be necessary. However both for prestige and stud value a step up makes far more sense until such time as there is a whole lot more evidence than we currently have that he wont stay middle distances (the sort of question that races like the Dante tend to resolve). Nothing more to be said for now. See you all on this thread next April  |
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Think he may be a Zafonic - walk the Guineas but run into trouble after
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Comments attributed to H Cecil indicate he wants a pacemaker for Frankel next year.
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sorry but this whale will soon be harpooned out of competition - Cowell won't want another fat troll winning before he heads off to States
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woops, sorry, wrong thread. Frankel - terrific performance today after the bump and then failing to settle properly
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form boosted again.
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Think the hcapper has all he needs with Klammer & Roderics subsequent runs to make him top 2r old above Dream Ahead.
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pathforks form is as good.
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If he had half a brain he would'nt have needed any subsequent runs, it would be so great to see the Abdullah silks being carried by a true great next year if he trains on 25 years after the season of my equine hero.
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but yes good to see it boosted.
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didnt need a form boost if you havent worked out frankel is the buisness by now there is no hope for you.
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ilikewavingatbuses thinking Frankel just a hyped horse on pages 8/9 of this thread the first major Frankel thread. Only 4 weeks to see if he was right or wrong.
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i think hes the most likely winner of the guineas u clown, do u even read my posts?
its the derby that i dont think he'll win(if he even lines up). my god u are an idiot, seriously, an absolute mug if ive ever seen one,u fookin talk to yourself on here eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10 Replies: 2596 23 Jul 10 11:54 Think ben10 might have been the only contributor on the thread that caused kirk's demise. Kirk should have kissed ass kept stum like Post reporters on issues and he would keep everyone happy. He did go strongly against St Nick on a stupidly long thread on here and was strong on Steinbeck in singles and doubles then Canford Cliffs in a big treble with Big Bucks 3s, Kauto 7/4. Steinbeck won't be any good over trips further than a mile IMO though I believe he had/has potential turns out his injuries may have affected his career and in that respect prima Donna was right. As for Kirk wouldn't be surprised if he is on here claiming he won k's on Nadal at Wimbledon or something else made up. [smiley:crazy] |
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i think its fair to debate all aspects of a horses form, what YOU think seems to be the only thing u want to hear from other formulites! u must be about 15. i like to talk about the good and the bad, will he get the trip, wont he, discuss form boosts, negetives, is his price right, has this happened before etc etc..
u seem to latch on to every 'superstar' like steinbeck and say they'll never be beaten the best ever, look at u already comparing ffrankel to sea the stars, u mention him with sea the stars in nearly every post, youre a laughing stock, few respect u on this forum because all u do is talk absolute b0llocks about the ficticous bets you have and seem to only care about your own opinions and seem to think youre right before these races have even been run. i have absolutely no time for u and i feel sorry for frankel now as im hoping u havent put your curse on him, u liking a horse i worse that an all caps FREE MONEY thread from money tree and god help us when u actually happen to pick a winner as we never hear the fooking end of it. how many years are u gonna live off the fact that u stuck by capt chris ffs give up will ya, capt chris blah blah blah big fooking deal, i bet u didnt even back the horse because ur such a fooking idiot! now sorry to spam this wonderful frankel thread with this sh!te but i honestly cannot stant u, u are literally the only person on this forum i dont get on with because u are too fooking ignorant and stupid to have an intelligent conversation about horse racing and im just hoping u havent fooked up franklels chances.now FOOK OFF!  ''As for Kirk wouldn't be surprised if he is on here claiming he won k's on Nadal at Wimbledon or something else made up.''[smiley:crazy] ^^LIKE SERIOUSLY![smiley:crazy] |
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This thread page 8:
ilikewavingatbuses Date Joined: 06 Jun 09 When: 28 Sep 10 10:51 personally i think frankel, although apparently v talented is just another overhyped horse like st nick was last season!i mean he won the rp thophy as easy as you like on the bridle as he hit the front!! frankel looks a speed horse to me and a horse that loves cut!!im just going by my eyes of course and i may be proved wrong in time and thats fine but i think you all should be careful before getting sucked in to this as i see the same comments every year someone puts up a good performance!! nathaniel hasnt even won a race yet and he got to within half a length of him on 1st run!i think hes just beat average horses very well so far but he will face stiffer tests soon!!he hasnt even run in a truly run race yet on good ground!you'd go broke backing these horses for guineas and derbys! wait until he faces a horse that isnt listed class on good ground in a truly run race and they youll find out how good he is!! |
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Re your paste ... I was taking the mick as I know from an impeccable source that kirk did win k's on Nadal at Wimbledon ... however we all know this is probably made up. (ffs surely he gets it this time
)Also I understand he was banned for sticking up for ordinary punters (even the th1ck ones like you) re owners laying their own horses ... something most on here wouldnt do as they are only interested in their own pockets. kirk was the best on here imo until The Ante-Post King (TAPK) came along ... his horses are really doing the talking as he said on his thread. Taqleed (Lincoln), Memory and Seville must be certainties the last 2 in the Guineas and Derby. |
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I think Kirk disappeared because he blew his bank. Not surprising really.
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you ARE kirk
[smiley:crazy] |
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kirk was a mug and a 2 bob punter, everyone knew that!
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...just a hyped horse ...
mmmm .... forum mug iliketakingloonybuses gets it wrong re Dewhurst winner sensation. |
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He may be a Zafonic and he may be an SNA. At 1/1 he is a very obvious lay.
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