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Exciting two-year-old filly prospects have been thin on the ground so far this season, with only Memory setting the pulse racing with the exceptional turn of foot she displayed in both the Albany Stakes at Royal Ascot and the Cherry Hinton Stakes at Newmarket. Another excellent prospect, who appeals as a possible long-range Guineas filly, is Criquette Head-Maarek's filly Helleborine.
She has won both her starts: on debut she was very green but still won the 6f Prix Mary Tudor at Maisons-Laffitte by three parts of a length from the highly regarded Pontenuovo, the pair 5 lengths clear of the rest of the field. Pontenuovo was a comfortable winner of the Gr.3 Prix de Cabourg next time out, to give the form a huge boost. On her second start Helleborine won the Listed Prix Six Perfections over 7f at Deauville (a new race in the French racing calendar), coming from a long way back to win impressively by 2½ lengths (check out the replay on Equidia). To quote one commentator, she "passed the whole field at such speed that it seemed as if her rivals were going backwards". One shouldn't get too over-excited by that performance, as her rivals included Godolphin’s Zabeel Park (a half-sister to Finsceal Beo who had won her maiden at Pontefract last time out), who looks useful but nothing special, and Dennis Coakley’s filly Fanny May (5th to Zaidan in the Chesham Stakes last time out), and the winning time was nothing special either. But one could hardly fail to be impressed by her remarkable burst of acceleration. It's one thing to do that in maiden company, but quite another to do it against previous winners.
Helleborine is by Observatory (Gr.1 winner over 8-9f) out of New Orchid (10f winner, Group-placed over 12f), which makes her a full sister to the top class African Rose (winner of the Gr.1 Sprint Cup and runner-up in the Gr.1 Prix Maurice de Gheest) and a half-sister to dual 10f winner Cultivar. African Rose was best over 6-7f but was bred to get a mile and was twice placed over a mile as a juvenile (on both occasions in Gr.3 company). On breeding and style of racing Helleborine should certainly stay a mile. She is reportedly much more relaxed than her sister and can make the running (as she did on her debut) or come from behind (as she did so brilliantly at Deauville). To quote Criquette Head-Maarek, Helleborine has "an amazing turn of foot" and is highly regarded ("she is remarkable and I like her a lot"). She is still quite green and can only improve (her full sister African Rose was best at three).
Helleborine is one of three Criquette Head-Maarek-trained fillies entered for the Cheveley Park Stakes, the other two being the unraced Exemplify (a full sister to Special Duty) and Starformer (a daughter of Etoile Montante, whom Head-Maarek trained to win the Gr.1 Prix de la Foret). All three are owned by Khalid Abdullah. Exemplify is reportedly showing more stamina than Special Duty at this stage of her career, so will probably start off over 7f or a mile and is unlikely to take up her entry in the Cheveley Park. Starformer is also likely to want 7f or a mile. I'm not predicting whether Helleborine will turn out to be the best of the three, but she sets quite a high standard and appeals as a big-price alternative to Memory for the 1000 Guineas. I have taken 33s and 25s, but the latter price should still be available if you shop around.
She has won both her starts: on debut she was very green but still won the 6f Prix Mary Tudor at Maisons-Laffitte by three parts of a length from the highly regarded Pontenuovo, the pair 5 lengths clear of the rest of the field. Pontenuovo was a comfortable winner of the Gr.3 Prix de Cabourg next time out, to give the form a huge boost. On her second start Helleborine won the Listed Prix Six Perfections over 7f at Deauville (a new race in the French racing calendar), coming from a long way back to win impressively by 2½ lengths (check out the replay on Equidia). To quote one commentator, she "passed the whole field at such speed that it seemed as if her rivals were going backwards". One shouldn't get too over-excited by that performance, as her rivals included Godolphin’s Zabeel Park (a half-sister to Finsceal Beo who had won her maiden at Pontefract last time out), who looks useful but nothing special, and Dennis Coakley’s filly Fanny May (5th to Zaidan in the Chesham Stakes last time out), and the winning time was nothing special either. But one could hardly fail to be impressed by her remarkable burst of acceleration. It's one thing to do that in maiden company, but quite another to do it against previous winners.
Helleborine is by Observatory (Gr.1 winner over 8-9f) out of New Orchid (10f winner, Group-placed over 12f), which makes her a full sister to the top class African Rose (winner of the Gr.1 Sprint Cup and runner-up in the Gr.1 Prix Maurice de Gheest) and a half-sister to dual 10f winner Cultivar. African Rose was best over 6-7f but was bred to get a mile and was twice placed over a mile as a juvenile (on both occasions in Gr.3 company). On breeding and style of racing Helleborine should certainly stay a mile. She is reportedly much more relaxed than her sister and can make the running (as she did on her debut) or come from behind (as she did so brilliantly at Deauville). To quote Criquette Head-Maarek, Helleborine has "an amazing turn of foot" and is highly regarded ("she is remarkable and I like her a lot"). She is still quite green and can only improve (her full sister African Rose was best at three).
Helleborine is one of three Criquette Head-Maarek-trained fillies entered for the Cheveley Park Stakes, the other two being the unraced Exemplify (a full sister to Special Duty) and Starformer (a daughter of Etoile Montante, whom Head-Maarek trained to win the Gr.1 Prix de la Foret). All three are owned by Khalid Abdullah. Exemplify is reportedly showing more stamina than Special Duty at this stage of her career, so will probably start off over 7f or a mile and is unlikely to take up her entry in the Cheveley Park. Starformer is also likely to want 7f or a mile. I'm not predicting whether Helleborine will turn out to be the best of the three, but she sets quite a high standard and appeals as a big-price alternative to Memory for the 1000 Guineas. I have taken 33s and 25s, but the latter price should still be available if you shop around.
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Keith, it depends on whether you think there are genuine excuses for it.
The ground was officially Very Soft in the Boussac, and for me eyes she quicked but then got outstayed. And her last run was a prep, even if marginally disappointing. The winner is very decent in her own right and logically you can expect signigicant improvement from Helleborine (going on trainer patterns).
If they decided to send her over or not, we'll know.
The ground was officially Very Soft in the Boussac, and for me eyes she quicked but then got outstayed. And her last run was a prep, even if marginally disappointing. The winner is very decent in her own right and logically you can expect signigicant improvement from Helleborine (going on trainer patterns).
If they decided to send her over or not, we'll know.
Of course, you're right. I'm not dogmatic about these things and I always forgive a "bad run" (not saying 22 in Helleborine's form figures represent bad runs, but you get my point). I don't get involved ante-post and those of you sitting pretty with 33/1 and 25s on the French filly have done well (provided she turns up, which is a big if). But, for me, I'd be leaning towards AOB's dual G1 winner who could improve again for returning to good ground.
Plenty of money for Moonlight Cloud, today. Only one firm left going 8/1.
Keith, it's a fair and interesting point that you make about 'confirmation bias'. I think we all, to some extent, look for the positives whenever things don't quite go according to plan. People who disagree with us may say that we're making excuses, but trainers do it all the time - the ground was to blame, the horse needed the race etc. I don't think we have to make excuses for Helleborine in the Prix Marcel Boussac - she put up a top class performance and was just beaten by a filly who outstayed her in the conditions. There was no disgrace in being beaten by Misty For Me, who is clearly a very smart filly herself and must be on anyone's shortlist for the Guineas. But Helleborine does seem to have a much sharper 'kick' than Misty For Me, who is more of a lengthener/stayer (to my eyes at least), which is why I'd be hopeful that the Boussac form could be reversed on better ground. Misty For Me acts very well on a quicker surface, as she showed in the Moyglare, but she had to be given plenty of smacks with the whip that day and maybe she's just a bit short of pace for a potential Guineas winner.
I dare say there's an element of confirmation bias in my assessment of the Prix Imprudence, but I do think there are genuine grounds for believing that the result should not be taken at face value. The Guineas is the race that matters - for trainers, owners and punters alike. Moonlight Cloud, Helleborine and Misty For Me are all very smart fillies, in my opinion, and it will be fascinating to see how they perform in the Guineas (if they are all confirmed for the race).
I dare say there's an element of confirmation bias in my assessment of the Prix Imprudence, but I do think there are genuine grounds for believing that the result should not be taken at face value. The Guineas is the race that matters - for trainers, owners and punters alike. Moonlight Cloud, Helleborine and Misty For Me are all very smart fillies, in my opinion, and it will be fascinating to see how they perform in the Guineas (if they are all confirmed for the race).
Having watched the Prix Marcel Boussac again (naughtily at my desk when it's clearly nsfw) you might well be right. Helleborine was gliding and perhaps didn't go past Misty for Me as she should've.
My point was more of a general, Monday afternoon musing tbh. I'm pretty obsessed with cognitive biases and try to make sure I'm at least aware of when I'm falling prey to them (many are obviously hard-wired & can't be avoided).
Pace will be key in the 1000 guineas. It's a mouthwatering race...and I wish you all the best with your bets. I'm gonna keep an open mind until the day and then put my each way buttons on.
My point was more of a general, Monday afternoon musing tbh. I'm pretty obsessed with cognitive biases and try to make sure I'm at least aware of when I'm falling prey to them (many are obviously hard-wired & can't be avoided).
Pace will be key in the 1000 guineas. It's a mouthwatering race...and I wish you all the best with your bets. I'm gonna keep an open mind until the day and then put my each way buttons on.
Having watched the Prix Marcel Boussac again (naughtily at my desk when it's clearly nsfw) you might well be right. Helleborine was gliding and perhaps didn't go past Misty for Me as she should've.
My point was more of a general, Monday afternoon musing tbh. I'm pretty obsessed with cognitive biases and try to make sure I'm at least aware of when I'm falling prey to them (many are obviously hard-wired & can't be avoided).
Pace will be key in the 1000 guineas. It's a mouthwatering race...and I wish you all the best with your bets. I'm gonna keep an open mind until the day and then put my each way buttons on.
My point was more of a general, Monday afternoon musing tbh. I'm pretty obsessed with cognitive biases and try to make sure I'm at least aware of when I'm falling prey to them (many are obviously hard-wired & can't be avoided).
Pace will be key in the 1000 guineas. It's a mouthwatering race...and I wish you all the best with your bets. I'm gonna keep an open mind until the day and then put my each way buttons on.
I'm pretty obsessed with cognitive biases
having found a second thread in 5 minutes with a Keith Lard mention of 'confirmation bias' I was about to suggest the same thing!
having found a second thread in 5 minutes with a Keith Lard mention of 'confirmation bias' I was about to suggest the same thing!
Returning to my favourite thread it struck me as (possibly) interesting that although KA has 4 other entires with the exception of the well beaten Exemplify none of the others at present look like having preps before the Guineas. Just an observation.
The email response I got from Teddy was pretty uncommital and repeated what he said after the race in France which was that she is unlikely to run. They will announce something in the next fews days.
Of course, they are perfectably entitled to change their minds etc so dont take it as read.
Of course, they are perfectably entitled to change their minds etc so dont take it as read.
Cheers for that Sint. I must admit when I first saw his post-race comments I (wrongly) assumed they had something else running in the UK trials. Now I am a loss to follow the train of thought unless maybe they are looking to avoid another clash with Misty and waiting for news on her target (understandable if they wouldn't want to take her on again on soft going but not on good).
Still Kudos to TG for having the politeness to reply to you.
Still Kudos to TG for having the politeness to reply to you.
Yes I was not expecting a reply either by generous that he did.
He said there would be an announcement when appropriate, not in the next fews day, I mis-read that bit.
He said there would be an announcement when appropriate, not in the next fews day, I mis-read that bit.
It is interesting to note that Moonlight Cloud and Helleborine have been allotted provisional Racing Post Ratings (RPR) of just 97 and 92 respectively for their performances in the Prix Imprudence. This compares with Helleborine's RPR of 112 for her performance in the Prix Marcel Boussac last season and suggests (if the ratings are to be believed!) that she ran up to 20lbs below her best at Maisons-Laffitte. The ratings, which undoubtedly underrate the achievement of the winner (who was given a rating of 107 for her tenderly-handled fourth in last season's Lagardere), seem to be based on the running of Etive, who has been given the same rating as the one she achieved in a Listed race at Deauville on 17 March. That's the problem with slowly-run races - it's practically impossible to take the form seriously. Nobody knows whether Moonlight Cloud will be able to reproduce that form in a strongly-run Group 1 race over the Rowley Mile. Freddie Head hinted strongly last autumn that the only reason he decided to take on the colts in the Lagardere was because he didn't want to run his filly over a mile at that stage of her career. There remains a slight doubt about her getting a truly-run mile in top company. At least we know that Helleborine, based on her Boussac run, is a top-class filly with a serious turn of foot who was clearly (for whatever reason) a long way below her best in the Imprudence. The Boussac form is certainly a long way in advance of what Moonlight Cloud achieved in the Imprudence. I strongly suspect that she was not as forward in condition as Criquette thought. Or maybe she simply hasn't trained on as well as we expected her to (which seems unlikely, given her pedigree and the way she had reportedly been working prior to the Imprudence).
There are two possible explanations for the Imprudence result: either Moonlight Cloud is a potential superstar and will take all the beating in the Guineas (the eric_morris interpretation) or else the slow pace of the race renders the form highly dubious. I tend to the latter interpretation, whilst admitting that Moonlight Cloud is undoubtedly a filly of considerable potential.
There are two possible explanations for the Imprudence result: either Moonlight Cloud is a potential superstar and will take all the beating in the Guineas (the eric_morris interpretation) or else the slow pace of the race renders the form highly dubious. I tend to the latter interpretation, whilst admitting that Moonlight Cloud is undoubtedly a filly of considerable potential.
Moonlight Cloud did show so much speed you have to wonder if she might be a sprinter. Very quick she was.
Together runs in the sales races at Newmarket over 10f tomorrow. I didn't see that coming!!
sint
looking at MC pedigree there is enough stamina to suggest she'll get the mile(was staying on behind the boys last season in the Lagardere)On the point of Together just feel Ballydoyle probably think she is a few pounds below guineas class and she did run in one of these sales races at HQ last season.I am probably well wide of the mark but those are my views for what they are worth
looking at MC pedigree there is enough stamina to suggest she'll get the mile(was staying on behind the boys last season in the Lagardere)On the point of Together just feel Ballydoyle probably think she is a few pounds below guineas class and she did run in one of these sales races at HQ last season.I am probably well wide of the mark but those are my views for what they are worth
Yes that's true SJ , but Together was campaigned in a similar way to Lilly Langtry as 2yo who She ran in/won a Sales race over here and then went to the States. But on the face of it she does look below Guineas class.
TBF fillies who show good speed have a good record in the Guineas - recently, Natagora, Special Duty, Attration etc all had similar stamina doubts to Moonlight Cloud, but were simply faster than the opposition, especially at that early stage of the season.
unclepuncle, you're correct, it's certainly possible to win the Guineas with a filly that only just gets a mile - the Rowley Mile is quite an easy track compared with, say, Ascot (which is an altogether stiffer test of stamina).
re: Together. She's running over 10f and I'll be amazed if they decide to drop her back to a mile in the Guineas, regardless of what happens today. She's by Galileo out of a mare that won over 11f in France, which makes her closely related to Jan Vermeer. Her pedigree screams middle distances.
re: Together. She's running over 10f and I'll be amazed if they decide to drop her back to a mile in the Guineas, regardless of what happens today. She's by Galileo out of a mare that won over 11f in France, which makes her closely related to Jan Vermeer. Her pedigree screams middle distances.
james, according to the RPR, last year Special Duty ran 9 lbs. below her best in the Imprudence and looked to be struggling, this year Moonlight Cloud has been given a RPR 10 lbs. below her best, but she looked like she had a helluva lot more in the tank. cheers.
The key aspect, surely, is that Special Duty achieved a rating of 117 as a juvenile (in the Cheveley Park Stakes) and only needed to run to a rating of 111 to win the Guineas (just 3lbs better than her Prix Imprudence rating). Moonlight Cloud's rating of 97 is nowhere near good enough to win a Guineas: she will need to improve on that by about 17lbs to win an average Guineas. That's the problem with these slowly-run races - they're impossible to rate because of the proximity of moderate horses like Miss Fifty and Madly In Love. It's no surprise that Moonlight Cloud won so easily, but it doesn't necessarily signify that she's good enough to win a Guineas (or even that she is certain to confirm the form with Helleborine if they reoppose in the Guineas, which now seems unlikely).
Its shaping up to be a funny old race with 4 of the first 5 in the betting looking likely to line up (if at all) without a prep while Helleborine who runs a perfectly acceptable trial (in view of her trainer's pre-race comments about not being fully wound up, in accordance with her usual modus operandi) now might be staying at home.
Still they're not machines (I'm talking about connections - obviously [;)] ).
Still they're not machines (I'm talking about connections - obviously [;)] ).
perhaps criquet head doesn't want to rain on her son's parade.just a thought.
It's more likely that she doesn't want to rain on her brother's parade...
At the moment this is a race where it is easy to find a reason NOT to back a horse rather than positive reasons to support one. It has all the hallmarks of going to a more unconsidered one. Personally if I had to make call it would be that it is going to France
Yes, sadly she is not one of the 30 fillies left in the Guineas at yesterday's forfeit stage.
James, do you think the Boussac run has possibly left it's mark ? She lost nothing in defeat that day,came there to win but ultimately got outstayed on testing going. It was a hard run,imo.
On the flip side, I am wondering now if this is a Negative for Moonlight Cloud. Connections are saying Hellborine ''needs more time'', and thus giving weight to the idea she had a hard race last Autumn, and therefore Moonlight Cloud beat nothing in the Imprudence.
On the flip side, I am wondering now if this is a Negative for Moonlight Cloud. Connections are saying Hellborine ''needs more time'', and thus giving weight to the idea she had a hard race last Autumn, and therefore Moonlight Cloud beat nothing in the Imprudence.
It's possible that the Boussac run has left its mark, although it was a long time ago now and you'd have thought she'd have got over a hard run by now. On the other hand, it remains to be seen how Misty For Me performs in the Guineas (if, indeed, she runs), the Boussac third (Rainbow Springs) was disappointingly beaten in a maiden recently, and the fourth (Mambia) ran poorly in the Imprudence. At least the fifth (Galikova) won nicely on her recent seasonal debut, but perhaps the form isn't quite as good as many of us initially thought.
I thought the Imprudence looked quite a competitive renewal on paper, but several of the better fillies ran disappointingly, so the form looks rather dubious (backed up by the slow overall winning time). But I wouldn't take anything away from the winner, who looked very smart and has unfortunately frightened off Helleborine's connections. I'm not sure I believe that Helleborine "needs more time", unless of course she hasn't come out of the race quite as well as they had hoped.
I thought the Imprudence looked quite a competitive renewal on paper, but several of the better fillies ran disappointingly, so the form looks rather dubious (backed up by the slow overall winning time). But I wouldn't take anything away from the winner, who looked very smart and has unfortunately frightened off Helleborine's connections. I'm not sure I believe that Helleborine "needs more time", unless of course she hasn't come out of the race quite as well as they had hoped.
A poor decision at this stage and one which could look even worse if the going changes in France and she lines up against Misty for Me or a similar staying type on "Boussac" going.
I look forward to hearing your early views again (assuming you are still willing to share them) this summer James.
I look forward to hearing your early views again (assuming you are still willing to share them) this summer James.
I'll admit to having been hopeful regarding Helleborine turning up but the signs were there some while ago. IE didn't come over last year at all / trainer's preferences for 1000 Guineas fillies.
Fully expect her to now go to the French version and go well.
Fully expect her to now go to the French version and go well.
Definitely don't see it being any kind of negative for Moonlight Cloud. helleborines connections said alomost immediately afetr the Impridence that they wouldn't take her on again. If anything the fact they ahve stuck rigidly to that view and taken her out at the first opportunity actually makes me think MC is the real deal - though even though I'm on at 8/1 I almost want her to lose just to stop Eric crowing[;)]
Ever since I went strong on Moonlight Cloud you are keen uncle arber puncle. Really need that button so you cant rip off my fancies whether it be Captain Chris or this horse.
Dark Destroyer .. poor decision re Helleborine because of his bet ... excellent decision the horse would not have been suited to the straight mile and would have been outclassed.
Yes Eric I follow your every move because you are the greatest - I just managed to back Nadal to win Wimbledon last year for £5k
jair1870 ... fully expect her to go French 1000 now .. lol ... what is this a learner RPost reporter audition ... total sh1t.
Judging by your immediate responses to nearly every post I make I think there is only one stalker on here Eric - I see it as a form of flattery so you keep at it
As you rightly point out I won a lot on Nadal last year .. and will this also. My mathematical methods in tennis would make your a-b=c arbing equation look like a nursery school mug.
I'm still spending my Steinbeck and Zaynar winnings[smiley:crazy]
Arb winnings ... your biggest win of the year each year you admitted is the ground at Cheltenham to win around 800 quid. I wouldnt bother discussing racing if winning just this a year you total mug. If Betfair dont provide me with a button to block you reading my posts I have no choice but to return your jibes only tenfold as I have way more material with you and your mates as you will find not only am I the best antepost punter on here but also the best p1ss taker.... enjoy.
I really seem to have gotten under you skin Eric - you must either love me or see me as some kind of threat.
no I think I hit the nerve there to get a reaction reflecting your own feelings ... excellent hit the spot there.
I think we're witnessing a breakdown here.
Yes James I suppose deep down I dont really believe the ''needs more time'' argument either. But it will be interesting to see how Misty For Me performs, wherever she runs next.
As far as I am aware several of us have Moonlight Cloud covered at 8/1, whilst DD has 12/1 and you and Ben have 33/40's.
Wouldn't be a bad result truth be told and i'd like to thank Teddy Grimthorpe for replying to my Email!
Yes James I suppose deep down I dont really believe the ''needs more time'' argument either. But it will be interesting to see how Misty For Me performs, wherever she runs next.
As far as I am aware several of us have Moonlight Cloud covered at 8/1, whilst DD has 12/1 and you and Ben have 33/40's.
Wouldn't be a bad result truth be told and i'd like to thank Teddy Grimthorpe for replying to my Email!
Pleased I cant read what this mug who said Long Run would be difficult to place this NH season has to say just before his historic King George and Gold Cups wins .. spare me the laughs .. classic that was
Is she going French jair1970 just checking with you?
Up early this morning Eric.
Sint's post had nothing whatsoever to do with you, he actually says he wants Moonlight Cloud to win the Guineas. Your reply just shows what a total tool you really are
Sint's post had nothing whatsoever to do with you, he actually says he wants Moonlight Cloud to win the Guineas. Your reply just shows what a total tool you really are
Oh and for what it's worth Sint I think the breakdown took place long ago - I just wonder how he manages to type while wearing a straight jacket
james I think I can speak for everyone on the Forum by saying maximum respect to you for highlighting this filly last August.
She won't be running in Newmarket but clearly she's an outstanding talent with a great future as a 3YO and threads like this from you, with contributions from sintonian et al, are the lifeblood of the Antepost Forum.
She won't be running in Newmarket but clearly she's an outstanding talent with a great future as a 3YO and threads like this from you, with contributions from sintonian et al, are the lifeblood of the Antepost Forum.
Yes thanks for putting us on the winner sintonian and co.
eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2963 20 Apr 11 20:23
As you rightly point out I won a lot on Nadal last year .. and will this also. My mathematical methods in tennis would make your a-b=c arbing equation look like a nursery school mug.
eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2562 23 Jul 10 11:54
Think ben10 might have been the only contributor on the thread that caused kirk's demise. Kirk should have kissed ass kept stum like Post reporters on issues and he would keep everyone happy.
He did go strongly against St Nick on a stupidly long thread on here and was strong on Steinbeck in singles and doubles then Canford Cliffs in a big treble with Big Bucks 3s, Kauto 7/4. Steinbeck won't be any good over trips further than a mile IMO though I believe he had/has potential turns out his injuries may have affected his career and in that respect prima Donna was right.
As for Kirk wouldn't be surprised if he is on here claiming he won k's on Nadal at Wimbledon or something else made up.
ok ok ok ok ok ok ok, so let me get this straight, eric wouldnt be surprised if eric(kirk) claimed he won thousands on nadal 'or something else made up?'
good grief. would u care to explain this post eric ta.[smiley:crazy]
Replies: 2963 20 Apr 11 20:23
As you rightly point out I won a lot on Nadal last year .. and will this also. My mathematical methods in tennis would make your a-b=c arbing equation look like a nursery school mug.
eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2562 23 Jul 10 11:54
Think ben10 might have been the only contributor on the thread that caused kirk's demise. Kirk should have kissed ass kept stum like Post reporters on issues and he would keep everyone happy.
He did go strongly against St Nick on a stupidly long thread on here and was strong on Steinbeck in singles and doubles then Canford Cliffs in a big treble with Big Bucks 3s, Kauto 7/4. Steinbeck won't be any good over trips further than a mile IMO though I believe he had/has potential turns out his injuries may have affected his career and in that respect prima Donna was right.
As for Kirk wouldn't be surprised if he is on here claiming he won k's on Nadal at Wimbledon or something else made up.
ok ok ok ok ok ok ok, so let me get this straight, eric wouldnt be surprised if eric(kirk) claimed he won thousands on nadal 'or something else made up?'
good grief. would u care to explain this post eric ta.[smiley:crazy]
the original post way back in august, highlighted Helleborine before it even ran, it was priced up as low as 7-8/1 fav at one point, it still looked to have a good chance until it's last run, even although it has cost me, i still feel it was a tremedous shout and good detective work. other posters have made good observations, including Ben 10, who put up Moonlight Cloud early and Sacred Kingdom who said Helleborine was a late May foal, which have very poor stats in the race. there are loads of other good posts with good information,and believe it or not, i think Eric speaks a lot of sense and does knows how to work Ante-Post, but his bragging seems to upset a lot of punters, instead of being upset by punters personalities, we should be concentrating on helping each other win some dosh. i have always liked Moonlight Cloud, for it to have beaten Helleborine so easily, i think she is the one, the other French horse has been underestimated in my opinion, Nova Hawk, and Havant is the other one on my short list. i have made my book, so won't be betting anymore in the race. i think the bookies are just shortening up everything now. cheers.
The definition of bliss:
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Helleborine is not well drawn (in stall 11 of 16) but still looks overpriced at around 6/1 for the Pouliches tomorrow. The favourite Golden Lilac is respected but she doesn't appeal at the odds, as her trial win was achieved in a desperately slow time.
The Pouliches is an open-looking race, and apart from Helleborine one at a big price (around 33/1) that catches the eye is Mixed Intention (drawn 4). She was beaten a comfortable 1½ lengths by Golden Lilac in the slowly-run Prix de la Grotte last time, but she was running on well from the rear and should be suited by a more strongly run race. Before that, she had finished first in a Listed race on the all-weather where she had Etive about 1½ lengths behind (Etive susequently finished the same distance behind Helleborine in the Prix Imprudence). Mixed Intention has also won a Listed race over a mile.
Thanks heaps for posting your thoughts here James. Much appreciated.
i'm tempted to give Nova Hawk another go here.
Beat most of the fancied ones at Newmarket.
Wait. I've been Pricewised FFS.
Beat most of the fancied ones at Newmarket.
Wait. I've been Pricewised FFS.
Why the hell is Gosden persevering with Maqaasid over this trip? It's obvious from the Guineas that she's a sprinter.
^^^^Because it was a very good 3rd in the Enlglish and he's hoping this is a weaker race. IMO Special Duty wasn't a true miler but it still won the English and the French albeit with a degree of luck.
James I hope Helleborine runs well for you. In very simple terms it concerns me that they ducked Moonlight Cloud because they were unsure they would reverse the form and then Moonlight Cloud didn't frank that form.
I've took your advice on Mixed Intention and had small bets on that and I've also had a small bet on Nova Step who I think could reverse the form of the Imprudence with Helleborine at a mile. My main selcetion is Rimth who I think is underrated given the way she stayed on in the Fred Darling and I think her ideal trip will be a mile. I dont think she will be the highest rated of this lot at the end of the season but I think she may be the best miler of the lot. Too many of the rest are either sprinters or taking in this in before stepping up to a proper trip.
James I hope Helleborine runs well for you. In very simple terms it concerns me that they ducked Moonlight Cloud because they were unsure they would reverse the form and then Moonlight Cloud didn't frank that form.
I've took your advice on Mixed Intention and had small bets on that and I've also had a small bet on Nova Step who I think could reverse the form of the Imprudence with Helleborine at a mile. My main selcetion is Rimth who I think is underrated given the way she stayed on in the Fred Darling and I think her ideal trip will be a mile. I dont think she will be the highest rated of this lot at the end of the season but I think she may be the best miler of the lot. Too many of the rest are either sprinters or taking in this in before stepping up to a proper trip.
I've no doubt it's a weaker race, but it's still false logic to expect her to find a turn of foot at the business end.
Well, the winner was good and I doubt any of the badly drawn horses would have beaten her but still, those drawn badly just never got into the race.
Helleborine a one paced camel, winner looked very very good after pulling early would like to see Moonlight Cloud take her on.
I think she'd probably have the measure of Moonlight Cloud.
Winner very impressive - so much for slow trial times meaning horses can't win. Maybe Carlton House is a worthy Derby favourite after all[;)]).
Maybe now it can be accpeted that Helleborine is not top class - no more excuses.
Maybe now it can be accpeted that Helleborine is not top class - no more excuses.
Golden Lilac looked very impressive there however nothing went right for Moonlight at Newmarket stuck in the stalls missing the break and being crossed over immediately on getting out.
I'd forgive those in behind Uncle, the first 4 were drawn 6-2-1-3.
Massive bias
Massive bias
Been telling you all Helleborine was not the business for ages maybe now you will listen when it is obvious.
That was impressive and clearly a 10f G1 is within it's reach very soon.
I guess that shows the placed horses may have been flattered but the winner was different gravy,
If she goes for the French Oaks will that mean she won't be coming to Royal Ascot - the Coronation would be hers for the taking.
Eric - Helleborine did about as well as Moonlight Cloud, Memory and Havant did at New'Mkt so get off your high horse.
Definition of a God complex for you eric:-
A god complex is a non-clinical term generally used to describe an individual who consistently believes he or she can accomplish more than is humanly possible or that their opinion is automatically above those with whom he or she may disagree.[1] The individual may believe he or she is above the rules of society and should be given special consideration or privileges.
A god complex is a non-clinical term generally used to describe an individual who consistently believes he or she can accomplish more than is humanly possible or that their opinion is automatically above those with whom he or she may disagree.[1] The individual may believe he or she is above the rules of society and should be given special consideration or privileges.
Winner very impressive and once again showed excellent acceleration, this time off a true pace. I thought she presented poor value at the odds, but she's gone and done it now and is obviously a very smart filly. No excuses for Helleborine: she wasn't well drawn and had plenty of daylight, but she raced keenly and couldn't quicken - very disappointing indeed. By the way, eric, Helleborine showed impressive acceleration last season when she was a top class two-year-old, it just looks as if she has failed to train on. Moonlight Cloud failed to get the mile in the Guineas, so I doubt we'll see her tackling Golden Lilac over a mile.
I hope the winner comes to somewhere like Ascot. Probably a better price there than if she stays in France.
Going on the result of that the high drawn horses look scuppered in the Colts version. Winner was good but was up front rank all the way, which is a huge advantage.
cruise d ... I am the best on here antepost. Analyze that.
eric_morris
When: 15 May 11 14:37
cruise d ... I am the best on here antepost. Analyze that.
And if proof of the 'God Complex' were ever needed here it is in black and white
When: 15 May 11 14:37
cruise d ... I am the best on here antepost. Analyze that.
And if proof of the 'God Complex' were ever needed here it is in black and white
cruise d ...
"It is a great British disease - we don't like winners. We have lot of sympathy for losers."
Especially when most of the losers are on here.
"It is a great British disease - we don't like winners. We have lot of sympathy for losers."
Especially when most of the losers are on here.
Hooray jamesp your fancy for the Guineas after Helleborine was pulled out ... did not get the mile.
Moonlight Cloud gave the rest a head start and could never get into the race. She needs another chance as does Memory.
Moonlight Cloud gave the rest a head start and could never get into the race. She needs another chance as does Memory.
Oh cruise d .. re your quote.
The laws of society dont exist on here, kissing the bosses @ss to get on doesnt replace performance which is the only thing that matters on here. If you dont perform you are sh1t and cant make up for it by using societies herd mentality to aggrandise one another like yourself, sintonian, uncle puncle and others try to.
Deal with your uselessness try to improve and stop bringing 'society' on here @ss kisser.
The laws of society dont exist on here, kissing the bosses @ss to get on doesnt replace performance which is the only thing that matters on here. If you dont perform you are sh1t and cant make up for it by using societies herd mentality to aggrandise one another like yourself, sintonian, uncle puncle and others try to.
Deal with your uselessness try to improve and stop bringing 'society' on here @ss kisser.
I dont say I have 5k on a race yet come out barely down when one of the few my pin didn't land hoses up though eric
That is because you dont understand what I am doing. The word is ignorance.
Can imagine Galileo trying to convince the herd they were wrong centuries ago, must have been a piece of cake compared to the n0bs with elevated opinions of their essay writing cliche riddled c@ck on here. The larger the group the greater the ignorance in uncontrolled crowds.
With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:
Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[50]
He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[51] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[52]
Can imagine Galileo trying to convince the herd they were wrong centuries ago, must have been a piece of cake compared to the n0bs with elevated opinions of their essay writing cliche riddled c@ck on here. The larger the group the greater the ignorance in uncontrolled crowds.
With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:
Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[50]
He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[51] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[52]
I much prefer you in your Mayweather guise Eric - at least he sometimes makes me laugh[;)]
eric_morris 15 May 11 14:57
Hooray jamesp your fancy for the Guineas after Helleborine was pulled out ... did not get the mile.
Moonlight Cloud gave the rest a head start and could never get into the race. She needs another chance as does Memory.
True, Hooray didn't get the mile, but let's face it neither did Moonlight Cloud. Comments in running: "Held up in rear, good headway over 3f out, ridden to lead 2f out, soon hung left under pressure and headed, 3rd and beaten just over 1f out, weakened final furlong (beaten 9½ lengths)."
Hooray jamesp your fancy for the Guineas after Helleborine was pulled out ... did not get the mile.
Moonlight Cloud gave the rest a head start and could never get into the race. She needs another chance as does Memory.
True, Hooray didn't get the mile, but let's face it neither did Moonlight Cloud. Comments in running: "Held up in rear, good headway over 3f out, ridden to lead 2f out, soon hung left under pressure and headed, 3rd and beaten just over 1f out, weakened final furlong (beaten 9½ lengths)."
The jury is out jamesp until she casn have a trouble free run ... her trainer was incensed over the stalls farce and rightly so.
Other than jamesp, I am not Mayweather however have to laugh at how he sticks his pin in the over-inflated egos on here.
Other than jamesp, I am not Mayweather however have to laugh at how he sticks his pin in the over-inflated egos on here.
Eric, do you fancy a meeting ? Are you close to London please ?
Waiting for your answer Mayweather.
Again, you can have £1k of my money if you beat my P&L. If only this will stop you bad mouthing people,lying and aftertiming. Not to mention claiming horses to be injured.
Im prepared to meet you Eric/Mayweather/Kirk/YBM/STD ..
Again, you can have £1k of my money if you beat my P&L. If only this will stop you bad mouthing people,lying and aftertiming. Not to mention claiming horses to be injured.
Im prepared to meet you Eric/Mayweather/Kirk/YBM/STD ..
cruise d ... if being the best antepost on here is being god on here then I may have to strike you down with mine divine special antepost pen. I'm not going to explain until I am blue in the face why you accuse people of lying, bragging, after-timing, anything else you can think of to deny you are sh1t at this while I before-time my fancies for races with great success. I prefer to take the p1ss as ignorance and denial are not going to be overcome with the likes of you on here let's face it.
You mentally ill, Mayweahtehr. I suspect you have depression.
Now, whilst I wont make fun of that, because it is a truly wicked disease, I suggest you stop taking it out on other people, and accusing them of lying about bets, claiming horses are injured, posting ficititious bets, and generally straight up calling everyone else liars.
All the evidence is against you on these forums so instead of making excuses and carrying on with this silly delusion and following arguements, just accept it and show a bit of humility. Otherwise your continue to go around in circles.
Now, whilst I wont make fun of that, because it is a truly wicked disease, I suggest you stop taking it out on other people, and accusing them of lying about bets, claiming horses are injured, posting ficititious bets, and generally straight up calling everyone else liars.
All the evidence is against you on these forums so instead of making excuses and carrying on with this silly delusion and following arguements, just accept it and show a bit of humility. Otherwise your continue to go around in circles.
Ahhh:-
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First and only time I've done this. I'm sure it's what you want eric, one less pleb that knows nothing for you to be better than[;)].
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First and only time I've done this. I'm sure it's what you want eric, one less pleb that knows nothing for you to be better than[;)].
Eric
I may have to strike you down with mine divine special antepost pen
I thought it was a dart(one of many)
I may have to strike you down with mine divine special antepost pen
I thought it was a dart(one of many)
That 1000 Guineas book in full:
Havant
Moonlight Cloud
Memory
That Derby book in full:
Frankel
World Domination
Carlton House
I somehow doubt that Galileo would have been a clueless favourite bakcer, but if that's how original thinking is presented these days then so be it.
Havant
Moonlight Cloud
Memory
That Derby book in full:
Frankel
World Domination
Carlton House
I somehow doubt that Galileo would have been a clueless favourite bakcer, but if that's how original thinking is presented these days then so be it.
jamesp Joined: 05 Jan 02
Replies: 870 15 May 11 14:22
Winner very impressive and once again showed excellent acceleration, this time off a true pace.
Not as true a pace as it may have seemed, jamesp, nearly a whole 3 seconds slower than the colts.
Replies: 870 15 May 11 14:22
Winner very impressive and once again showed excellent acceleration, this time off a true pace.
Not as true a pace as it may have seemed, jamesp, nearly a whole 3 seconds slower than the colts.
I thought it was a poor race tbh. The horses in behind were either stayes (Wild Wind, not good enough (Helleborine) or sprinters (Rimth,Maqaasid).
Poor race or not she looks the best 3 y.o filly over 1m to my eyes.
Maybe, but as Figgis says it was dead slow.
Did my rough n ready speed figures for Longchamp and it was the slowest race of the day by far.
She's lethal at a mile off a slow pace alright but couple in the draw bias and it's no wonder nothing else got into it.
Did my rough n ready speed figures for Longchamp and it was the slowest race of the day by far.
She's lethal at a mile off a slow pace alright but couple in the draw bias and it's no wonder nothing else got into it.
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