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will win irish , kg, this is a proper horse, supposed to be better with give, will destroy fame and glory, and sorry, would have waved goodybe to sts today.just one thing mr stoute whatch out for coolmore tactics against you, theyll use pacemakers to go slow, even then youll win, but for certainty use your own. please dont rule out leger
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would have waved goodybe to sts
As impressive as he was today, there was only one Group 1 winner in the field and the runner-up went off at 100/1.
Let's just calm the f**k down.
As impressive as he was today, there was only one Group 1 winner in the field and the runner-up went off at 100/1.
Let's just calm the f**k down.
400 on here. That kind of victory is how bookies make their money.
Rated significantly higher than STS was during his Derby victory, but he went on to better things. Workforce looks a very exciting prospect.
Agree, look at the SPs of Derby winners in the past, very poor value
had a few ben, i really think this was an exeptional perf, everyone going on he only beat pacbemaker, yet all were praising montjeu in arc when he just got on top of front runner there.ok time will tell the acid test is when he hammers fame and glory, if he doesnt then ill acclaim sts as the tops since the brave.
probably biased by winnings...but i thought it was an excellent performance...the way he came away from the chasing pack....and was the only one to really commit to running down the leader...and still pull away after going past was stunning.
just a shame apossible meeting of one great & one possible wont take place
just a shame apossible meeting of one great & one possible wont take place
I must say the way he quickened off a fast pace was nothing short of phenomenal. Just wonder what would happen if F&G was tracking the pacemaker..
Has just broken the course record...well actually smashed it..looks like a real champion to me
will be very interesting to see how Workforce gets on against the older generation..lets see how STS form stacks up! I'll just add so you know I've always thought STS was seriously over-rated...not by the handicapper..but certainly by the media desperate for a Superstar....hopefully we'll soon have a better idea
will be very interesting to see how Workforce gets on against the older generation..lets see how STS form stacks up! I'll just add so you know I've always thought STS was seriously over-rated...not by the handicapper..but certainly by the media desperate for a Superstar....hopefully we'll soon have a better idea
Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, Arc = over-rated? Can't see it myself.
Very quick ground, against one of the worse Derby fields in a long time. Glad he won by so far, can lay him next time he runs and win a bundle. Ease.
Just watched it again. Amazing turn of fooot to get away from horses being set alight by their jocks. One thing I would be wary of is softer ground. Also,not sure what he beat. In any event will be interesting to follow him in the coming months.
Charlton - Do you remember before the Dante what I posted about Workforce if not check back to the thread. Without being disrespectful. You were very very fortunate to collect on your lay of him that day because that was not even remotely Workforce who turned up. Note where Coordinated Cut finished today. Stoute knew he was way bettr than that or he wouldn't even have run today.
It was a poor Derby field but don't understimate any horse who wins a Derby like he did today.
He is very good.
It was a poor Derby field but don't understimate any horse who wins a Derby like he did today.
He is very good.
Of course I remember! And you are correct. Little did I know about that at the time (bit throuh mouth). I did have it explained to me and I acted accordingly for the Derby. WD and I hope you stuck with him.
i am, wont be be laying workforce, ill lay cape tomorrow,manifest gold cup and now fame and glory k g if he turns up
Charlton - I was already on for the Derby and laid some of it after SNA got withdrawn but a good win none the less.
Read your other posts with the guys and I know you are a very good layer and those guys are different league.
Anyway roll on Royal Ascot now.
Read your other posts with the guys and I know you are a very good layer and those guys are different league.
Anyway roll on Royal Ascot now.
Agree with Manifest ej, there seems to be a direct correlation between him running well and the topspeed rating being awful. Should be a good pae with Akmal, Kite Wood and hopefully Holberg at least. That should set it up for Purple Moon 
elisjohn 05 Jun 10 21:30
will win irish , kg, this is a proper horse, supposed to be better with give, will destroy fame and glory, and sorry, would have waved goodybe to sts today.just one thing mr stoute whatch out for coolmore tactics against you, theyll use pacemakers to go slow, even then youll win, but for certainty use your own. please dont rule out leger
agree 100%
will win irish , kg, this is a proper horse, supposed to be better with give, will destroy fame and glory, and sorry, would have waved goodybe to sts today.just one thing mr stoute whatch out for coolmore tactics against you, theyll use pacemakers to go slow, even then youll win, but for certainty use your own. please dont rule out leger
agree 100%
WD to you. It's a lot easier laying than picking 40/1 shots I can tell you. Those guys are different league! Let's see what they reckon for the 15th.
If you look at the Workforce thread where you had posted and I replied, you'll see that while you were posting to me on here, I was posting to you on there.
If you look at the Workforce thread where you had posted and I replied, you'll see that while you were posting to me on here, I was posting to you on there.
agree . Will prove himself a true great & what a physical specimen he is
I seldom comment on flat racing as I don't follow it closely but I would not underestimate Moore's part in today's victory.
I think many of the jocks got things wrong in pacing and I would not be surprised to see the form overturned.
I think many of the jocks got things wrong in pacing and I would not be surprised to see the form overturned.
respect your opinions SC & agree about the jock. However doubt that any of the beaten horses with turn the form around.
From th 2f marker I don't think the winner took anything out of rewilding. Maybe wrong though.
tbf c2 the effort it took to get out after the runaway...would have been almost imposible to sustain that much longer...having said that he was'nt stopping either..
catch up with this tomm...laters all[;)]
catch up with this tomm...laters all[;)]
I'll lay him for anything EJ, just because he will probably be the wrong price.
Good night Trev.
Good night Trev.
But, EJ, that does not go against your original post or the reason for putting it up.
would never of backed him. wd those who did but personally cant do with stoute mooore
Nobody can really tell how good Workforce will prove to be. There are two sides to every coin.
Negative - It wasn't a great Derby field and it's unlikely many of those in behind are true Group 1 performers.
Positive - the manner of Workforce's debut win was incredible. Oasis Dancer had been backed off the boards all day. Oasis Dancer was out well on the inside, Workforce was trying out for the Hamlet advert and last on the outside, for all money he looked to have blown the race already. Oasis Dancer went on and looked like landing a huge punt and then Workforce just flew past like he was tree and won 6l barely turning a hair.
Only a maiden win, but,the strength of support for Oasis Dancer and the high regard he was held in the Beckett yard or his subsequent form make it a different story.
Oasis Dancer then won the Timeform race and a very hot handicap at Newarket giving weight to a probable group performer in Balducci,then although only 11th in the Irish 2000 he was considered good enough to run in Group 1 company so Workforce on his debut was exceptional.
Yesterday he utterly murdered an admittedly sub standard Group 1 field on only his 3rd ever start.
He still has lots to prove but his two wins were astounding performances and his defeat was excusable given his bit slipped and probably he was more under cooked than his trainer realised.
Negative - It wasn't a great Derby field and it's unlikely many of those in behind are true Group 1 performers.
Positive - the manner of Workforce's debut win was incredible. Oasis Dancer had been backed off the boards all day. Oasis Dancer was out well on the inside, Workforce was trying out for the Hamlet advert and last on the outside, for all money he looked to have blown the race already. Oasis Dancer went on and looked like landing a huge punt and then Workforce just flew past like he was tree and won 6l barely turning a hair.
Only a maiden win, but,the strength of support for Oasis Dancer and the high regard he was held in the Beckett yard or his subsequent form make it a different story.
Oasis Dancer then won the Timeform race and a very hot handicap at Newarket giving weight to a probable group performer in Balducci,then although only 11th in the Irish 2000 he was considered good enough to run in Group 1 company so Workforce on his debut was exceptional.
Yesterday he utterly murdered an admittedly sub standard Group 1 field on only his 3rd ever start.
He still has lots to prove but his two wins were astounding performances and his defeat was excusable given his bit slipped and probably he was more under cooked than his trainer realised.
Well done to Push for spotting this horse ages ago, despite my negative comments,very well done,looks a good propect for the year
The race was a bit freakish. Having a horse to chase from such a long way out isn't going to happen very often. However if the colt's impressiv gears can be shown to effect in other types of race he could well have a Generous/Galileo type summer.
Wonderful acceleration.....there had to be reason for that price and boy did he deliver
Visually very impressive. The runner-up At First Sight clearly put up a massively improved performance (it's hardly surprising that the others failed to catch him, considering they smashed the course record!) and Jan Vermeer almost certainly ran below par, so the race has to be rated through Rewilding.
In terms of recent Derby-winning performances I rate Workforce below Generous and roughly on a par with Galileo, Authorized, Motivator, High Chaparral and Sinndar. In other words, it was an above-average Derby-winning performance and he will be hard to beat in his next race (whether it's the Irish Derby, the Eclipse or the King George). At the moment I would say that Workforce and the older Fame And Glory are quite evenly matched, but obviously one would expect the lightly-raced Workforce to make further improvement as the season goes on.
In terms of recent Derby-winning performances I rate Workforce below Generous and roughly on a par with Galileo, Authorized, Motivator, High Chaparral and Sinndar. In other words, it was an above-average Derby-winning performance and he will be hard to beat in his next race (whether it's the Irish Derby, the Eclipse or the King George). At the moment I would say that Workforce and the older Fame And Glory are quite evenly matched, but obviously one would expect the lightly-raced Workforce to make further improvement as the season goes on.
Someone will need to explain something to me. How can Workforce be said by some to be a horse who will possibly go on to flop in other races. Surely he can win other races that have pacemakers in them ? If it's good enough for Ballydoyle, it should be good enough for Stoute. I'd like to see Workforce take on Fame & Glory as they will both like a strong gallop.
jamesp, you know an awful lot more about flat racing than I do, but I think it would be risky to rate the race, literally, therough Rewilding.
Doubtless At First Sight improved substantially on this his first crack at 12f, but how many times have we seen jockeys riding their race according to the SP of the pacemaker rather than the way the race itself is panning out?
Until AFS made his move, most of them were, arguably, pretty much where they should have been. But many seemed slow in realising that the injection of pace, on that ground, came at a crucial stage.
Moore's foresight in being the first of the fancied ones to get properly to work was no doubt helped by the ability of his mount, but Dettori found himself in the wrong place on the outside and a second or two behind the action.
Whether Rewilding then drifted inside or whether Dettori was desperately seeking a better position, I don't know. But Rewilding looked to me to finish with quite a bit of running in him and although his jockey says he is really a St Leger horse, if they choose to take the winner on again at Ascot, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him finish an awful lot closer and he'd be no forlorn hope, imo, to reverse the form.
For the record, I didn't have a bet in The Derby
Doubtless At First Sight improved substantially on this his first crack at 12f, but how many times have we seen jockeys riding their race according to the SP of the pacemaker rather than the way the race itself is panning out?
Until AFS made his move, most of them were, arguably, pretty much where they should have been. But many seemed slow in realising that the injection of pace, on that ground, came at a crucial stage.
Moore's foresight in being the first of the fancied ones to get properly to work was no doubt helped by the ability of his mount, but Dettori found himself in the wrong place on the outside and a second or two behind the action.
Whether Rewilding then drifted inside or whether Dettori was desperately seeking a better position, I don't know. But Rewilding looked to me to finish with quite a bit of running in him and although his jockey says he is really a St Leger horse, if they choose to take the winner on again at Ascot, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him finish an awful lot closer and he'd be no forlorn hope, imo, to reverse the form.
For the record, I didn't have a bet in The Derby
remembering the gamble on kris kin in a better field,its fair to say no one in stoutes yard thought they were taking a superstar to epsom yesterday morning, which is not to say he isnt,anyone not on yesterday will probably be better off being against it next time out
frankie lokked down 3 or 4 times coming down the hill,and looked as though he may even have pulled him up,must be worth a bet ew to turn form around on stiffer track
Fair points about Rewilding. This sort of result is very hard to rate accurately, so I have used Rewilding, Al Zir and Coordinated Cut as the best guide to the form at this stage, but it's a very inexact science.
First Time Poster - The gamble on Workforce took place before the Dante when he was 20-1 and was into 8's.
Kris Kin I believe got supplemented that may be incorrect but he was improving rapidly whereas I think they knew early this boy was good.
All imho.
Kris Kin I believe got supplemented that may be incorrect but he was improving rapidly whereas I think they knew early this boy was good.
All imho.
makes you wonder what price workforce would have been if the french derby would have been run first after cape blancos
flop.
flop.
hussard i,ll take your word for it,but would suggest the last time workforce was 20,s ,was a furlong out at goodwood
Workforce traded in size at between 30 and 40 after the Dante
incidentally i handtimed the final two furlongs of workforces derby and he ran it in 22.9 seconds, a commendable effort given the searching pace of the race.
compare it to dancing brave, who did it in 22.3 seconds, even in defeat. although that was off a slower pace. although i think it's fair to say that ryan moores ride was considerably better than grevilles. [smiley:crazy]
sharastani was probably about the same distance in front of dancing brave than at first sight was to workforce, the big difference being that off a slow early pace sharastani wasnt slowing down, so it was an almost impossible task to catch him, ceding so much ground, while after his earlier exertions it wasnt suprising that at first sight wasnt able to resist workforce's late charge.
compare it to dancing brave, who did it in 22.3 seconds, even in defeat. although that was off a slower pace. although i think it's fair to say that ryan moores ride was considerably better than grevilles. [smiley:crazy]
sharastani was probably about the same distance in front of dancing brave than at first sight was to workforce, the big difference being that off a slow early pace sharastani wasnt slowing down, so it was an almost impossible task to catch him, ceding so much ground, while after his earlier exertions it wasnt suprising that at first sight wasnt able to resist workforce's late charge.
and how many horses ran the last 2 furlongs faster than the 2nd,even though he did the donkey work and sprinted for home a long way out,and how much faster after that big effort did the winner run compared to the 200 to 1 rag
It doesn't matter that a 100/1 shot was 2nd...didn't Nashwan beat Terimon and Opening Verse in the Derby and Eclipse? Seem to remember they were...what? 500/1 and 200/1?
Taken from Dublin Evening Herald from last Monday evening:-
Work paying off for Stoute hero
Workforce is officially rated higher than Sea the Stars at the equivalent stage last year following his sensational victory in the Investec Derby at Epsom.
The British Horseracing Authority’s handicappers have given Khalid Abdullah’s colt a rating of 128—4lb more than that handed to Sea the Stars 12 months ago.
Sea the Stars went on to much greater things and the sky could be also the limit for Michael Stoute’s charge after his seven-length romp in a record time for the premier classic.
“I have discussed the race with my colleague Chris Nash and independently we have come up with the same figure, so we are pretty pleased with that,” said the BHA’s senior handicapper Phil Smith.
“We have used Rewilding (third) as our marker.
“We’ve got him running to 115, and At First Sight (second) therefore is 116.
“We thought the winner won easily enough, but instead of calling it seven lengths we’ve called it eight.
“We work in one and a half pounds per length over a mile and a half so he comes out 12lb better then At First Sight, so it puts him at 128.
“That’s very high for a Derby-winning performance.
“We have Derby winners eventually get higher than that, obviously Sea the Stars last year—we put him on 124 (after the Derby) and it was his Eclipse and Irish Champion Stakes performance that saw him go higher.
“My only little consideration is I suspect he will always be at his best coming off a fast pace.
“I think the way the race was run was perfectly set up to show how good he was.
Timeform provisionally rate Workforce on 132 making it their best Derby-winning performance since Generous in 1991.
Winning jockey Ryan Mooe believes Workforce had improved 20lb for his run in the Dante stakes at York.
“I have never had a (middle distance) horse quicken like that and I have never been around the bend at Epsom so quickly,” he said.
“He was a different horse from the Dante and must have improved 20lb.”
He added : “It was great to have won the race as it is the race I most wanted to win and I am lucky to have it out of the way.”
“I shouldn’t really say it but there has ever been only one Classic I have been interested in.
“I first remember watching Erhaab’s Derby in 1994 and it is a race I have always wanted to win alongside the King George, Eclipse, Breeders Cup and things like that.”
The Irish Derby in three weeks’ time is the obvious next port of call for Workforce, although a final decision will not be made until nearer the time.
“It was a very exciting performance and he come out of the race absolutely fine,” said the owner’s racing manager, Teddy Grimthorpe. “It was really a remarkable performance for a horse so inexperienced and for hism to break the course record is something else.
The Irish Derby would look the obvious next step, but we’ll just see how the horse takes this race and sit down and make a plan for the rest of the season.”
As well as 100/1 chance At First Sight, Aidan O’Brien also saddled fourth home Jan Vermeer, who went off the 9/4 favourite, and fifth-placed Mida Touch.
He said: “The horses have all walked out fine this morning, Jan Vermeer was re-shod after the race but what happened be a problem in the future as he is a horse with good feet.
“It was a funny race, and for some reason they couldn’t get At First Sight back.
“Ryan Moore’s horse obviously did, but the others really never changed position.”
O’Brien also had news of former ante-post favourite St Nicholas Abbey, who missed the race following a setback.
He said : St Nicholas Abbey is going to have the whole month of June off; we were advised to give two to three days but we have decided to give him a full month to recover.
“It shouldn’t take him long to get back to full fitness as he is a very natural horse, but we won’t rush him and we will look forward to an autumn campaign.”
The Godolphin camp hope Rewilding could still taste Classic glory as Frankie Dettori’s mount was immediately earmarked for the Ladbrokes St Leger after running on strongly to take third.
“I thought that Rewilding ran a very good race,” trainer Mahmood Al Zarooni said.
“Rewilding didn’t like he handled the course very well, especially coming down the hill, but he did stay very well towards the end.
“I will have to discuss plans with Sheikh Mohammed but I think he might go for the St Leger at Doncaster in September.”
Anyone here recall a big long thread in here about St Nicholas Abbey and his ratings following the Racing Post Trophy? A guy, not sure who he was (Smith from BHB?) asked about what other horse he'd give said "Workforce" claiming he'd pulled up on a ten-length loss to come second in a Goodwood maiden. About three of the horses in that race won their next race.
Work paying off for Stoute hero
Workforce is officially rated higher than Sea the Stars at the equivalent stage last year following his sensational victory in the Investec Derby at Epsom.
The British Horseracing Authority’s handicappers have given Khalid Abdullah’s colt a rating of 128—4lb more than that handed to Sea the Stars 12 months ago.
Sea the Stars went on to much greater things and the sky could be also the limit for Michael Stoute’s charge after his seven-length romp in a record time for the premier classic.
“I have discussed the race with my colleague Chris Nash and independently we have come up with the same figure, so we are pretty pleased with that,” said the BHA’s senior handicapper Phil Smith.
“We have used Rewilding (third) as our marker.
“We’ve got him running to 115, and At First Sight (second) therefore is 116.
“We thought the winner won easily enough, but instead of calling it seven lengths we’ve called it eight.
“We work in one and a half pounds per length over a mile and a half so he comes out 12lb better then At First Sight, so it puts him at 128.
“That’s very high for a Derby-winning performance.
“We have Derby winners eventually get higher than that, obviously Sea the Stars last year—we put him on 124 (after the Derby) and it was his Eclipse and Irish Champion Stakes performance that saw him go higher.
“My only little consideration is I suspect he will always be at his best coming off a fast pace.
“I think the way the race was run was perfectly set up to show how good he was.
Timeform provisionally rate Workforce on 132 making it their best Derby-winning performance since Generous in 1991.
Winning jockey Ryan Mooe believes Workforce had improved 20lb for his run in the Dante stakes at York.
“I have never had a (middle distance) horse quicken like that and I have never been around the bend at Epsom so quickly,” he said.
“He was a different horse from the Dante and must have improved 20lb.”
He added : “It was great to have won the race as it is the race I most wanted to win and I am lucky to have it out of the way.”
“I shouldn’t really say it but there has ever been only one Classic I have been interested in.
“I first remember watching Erhaab’s Derby in 1994 and it is a race I have always wanted to win alongside the King George, Eclipse, Breeders Cup and things like that.”
The Irish Derby in three weeks’ time is the obvious next port of call for Workforce, although a final decision will not be made until nearer the time.
“It was a very exciting performance and he come out of the race absolutely fine,” said the owner’s racing manager, Teddy Grimthorpe. “It was really a remarkable performance for a horse so inexperienced and for hism to break the course record is something else.
The Irish Derby would look the obvious next step, but we’ll just see how the horse takes this race and sit down and make a plan for the rest of the season.”
As well as 100/1 chance At First Sight, Aidan O’Brien also saddled fourth home Jan Vermeer, who went off the 9/4 favourite, and fifth-placed Mida Touch.
He said: “The horses have all walked out fine this morning, Jan Vermeer was re-shod after the race but what happened be a problem in the future as he is a horse with good feet.
“It was a funny race, and for some reason they couldn’t get At First Sight back.
“Ryan Moore’s horse obviously did, but the others really never changed position.”
O’Brien also had news of former ante-post favourite St Nicholas Abbey, who missed the race following a setback.
He said : St Nicholas Abbey is going to have the whole month of June off; we were advised to give two to three days but we have decided to give him a full month to recover.
“It shouldn’t take him long to get back to full fitness as he is a very natural horse, but we won’t rush him and we will look forward to an autumn campaign.”
The Godolphin camp hope Rewilding could still taste Classic glory as Frankie Dettori’s mount was immediately earmarked for the Ladbrokes St Leger after running on strongly to take third.
“I thought that Rewilding ran a very good race,” trainer Mahmood Al Zarooni said.
“Rewilding didn’t like he handled the course very well, especially coming down the hill, but he did stay very well towards the end.
“I will have to discuss plans with Sheikh Mohammed but I think he might go for the St Leger at Doncaster in September.”
Anyone here recall a big long thread in here about St Nicholas Abbey and his ratings following the Racing Post Trophy? A guy, not sure who he was (Smith from BHB?) asked about what other horse he'd give said "Workforce" claiming he'd pulled up on a ten-length loss to come second in a Goodwood maiden. About three of the horses in that race won their next race.
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