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01 Jun 10
08:59
Joined:
Date Joined:
04 Feb 07
.. is the term to be used when referring to a big mouth Ballydoyle horse who isnt what they say he is but would be a lovely type for breeding if he was. As in geese dressed as swans.
From now I propose we refer to any hype horse from Ballydoyle as a 'St Nick' whenever the smell of bullsh1t emanates from a certain stable.
From now I propose we refer to any hype horse from Ballydoyle as a 'St Nick' whenever the smell of bullsh1t emanates from a certain stable.
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Well he did make his target the Irish 2000 and ran very well, if he doesnt turn up the St James Palace he will be one imo.
So it is agreed, we look forward to many breeding inspired wafts of bullsh1t from the stable in future ... St Nick's galore.
You are right Kirk,remember they are business people NOT sportsman,always worth thinking about that when listening to what they say!
Well blow me, I've been training for the local half marathon all year and sprint finishes the lot beating the locals, low and behold woke up stiff this morning would you believe it after all the amazing homework I've done I am declaring myself out. Would you believe it nobody is going to see how good I have been now.
Definition: noun;
St Nick
A horse who is hyped for breeding purposes to be the next Pegasus based on homework where there is a high probability he is moderate and may not make his definite target once balls on the line time arrives.
St Nick
A horse who is hyped for breeding purposes to be the next Pegasus based on homework where there is a high probability he is moderate and may not make his definite target once balls on the line time arrives.
Kirk,if he is finished and its all over he will only have minimal appeal as a stallion,they would do better to send him to AUS/NZ Montjeu has done well there he would have more appeal to them.
We also have after-timing which I propose will be known as a 'St Nick splashback'
"Obviously this will preclude him from running in the Investec Derby on Saturday. We always thought St Nicholas Abbey could walk on water and it is very unfortunate for all concerned to have a setback like this so close to the big race."
"Obviously this will preclude him from running in the Investec Derby on Saturday. We always thought St Nicholas Abbey could walk on water and it is very unfortunate for all concerned to have a setback like this so close to the big race."
Definition of 'St. Nick'
Champion 2 year old who blows punters away in his final race, hyped all Winter by punters who disappoints on his return(not helped by a crap ride from his jockey) and then injuries himself just days before the Derby meaning he has to pull out.
Champion 2 year old who blows punters away in his final race, hyped all Winter by punters who disappoints on his return(not helped by a crap ride from his jockey) and then injuries himself just days before the Derby meaning he has to pull out.
Sorry but we cant allow the definition to include the reason connections (the source of the original bullsh1t) give for him being out.
Definition: noun;
St Nick
A horse who is hyped for breeding purposes to be the next Pegasus based on homework where there is a high probability he is moderate and may not make his definite target once balls on the line time arrives.
St Nick
A horse who is hyped for breeding purposes to be the next Pegasus based on homework where there is a high probability he is moderate and may not make his definite target once balls on the line time arrives.
Definition: noun;
St Nick splashback
As in a 'St Nick' but in addition extolling the horses virtues even further for breeding purposes after prior declarations of greatness were not proven, as in 'could walk on water'
St Nick splashback
As in a 'St Nick' but in addition extolling the horses virtues even further for breeding purposes after prior declarations of greatness were not proven, as in 'could walk on water'
Injury date - 1st June
Stiffness - evening 31st May
punters knowing he'd be out due to prices - evening of 3oth & morning of the 31st
So there you have it. We knew due to prices of the injury before they did. Isn't it amazing ? they said it was stiff in the evening, yet we all saw the prices in the morning. Technology these day, i tell ya.
Stiffness - evening 31st May
punters knowing he'd be out due to prices - evening of 3oth & morning of the 31st
So there you have it. We knew due to prices of the injury before they did. Isn't it amazing ? they said it was stiff in the evening, yet we all saw the prices in the morning. Technology these day, i tell ya.
Has this ever happened before??
Surely not!!
Not every year for the last 50 at least
Surely not!!
Not every year for the last 50 at least
Graeme83 you reminded me-
Definition: Noun;
Ballydoyle b****
A punter who believes everything he is told by connections relating to the claimed brilliance of a horse in the stable which has not yet supported such claims on the course, the only place the claims can be proven.
Definition: Noun;
Ballydoyle b****
A punter who believes everything he is told by connections relating to the claimed brilliance of a horse in the stable which has not yet supported such claims on the course, the only place the claims can be proven.
Not to sound like a stuck record Kirk but a case in point being STEINBECK.
Prima Donna - Definitely Steinbeck and definitely St Nicholas Abbey who failed to live up to your expectations.
All this just reminds me of Pescatorio - the biggest joke from Ballydoyle in the last 5 years.
All this just reminds me of Pescatorio - the biggest joke from Ballydoyle in the last 5 years.
St Nick:
A horse who displays scintillating performance at the age of two, but who subsequently fails to progress. Yet, to preserve the horse's stud value, the trainer and connections continue to hype the horse at the age of three and beyond. To make the claims credible, however, this often entails feigning injuries of the said horse, thereby ruling him out of classic races; meanwhile, lacklustre performance is often explained away by claiming, for example, that the distance didn't suit. In many cases, the horse is retired early in the second season.
A horse who displays scintillating performance at the age of two, but who subsequently fails to progress. Yet, to preserve the horse's stud value, the trainer and connections continue to hype the horse at the age of three and beyond. To make the claims credible, however, this often entails feigning injuries of the said horse, thereby ruling him out of classic races; meanwhile, lacklustre performance is often explained away by claiming, for example, that the distance didn't suit. In many cases, the horse is retired early in the second season.
Shark12 01 Jun 10 09:54
Prima Donna - Definitely Steinbeck and definitely St Nicholas Abbey who failed to live up to your expectations.
Yes your right,he did look good last term,and he has shown a good deal at home I thought he looked moderate in the GNS,and as ben10 said a time ago he may not train on,looks like he was right,BUT I am the first to hold my hands up that I have got him so wrong.Mind you don't alter my view with S'beck.
Prima Donna - Definitely Steinbeck and definitely St Nicholas Abbey who failed to live up to your expectations.
Yes your right,he did look good last term,and he has shown a good deal at home I thought he looked moderate in the GNS,and as ben10 said a time ago he may not train on,looks like he was right,BUT I am the first to hold my hands up that I have got him so wrong.Mind you don't alter my view with S'beck.
Excellent summary Keynes1. Just a couple of amendments:
"St Nick:
A horse who displays a decent performance at the age of two, but who subsequently fails to progress. Yet, to preserve the horse's stud value, the trainer and connections continue to hype the horse at the age of three and beyond. To make the claims credible, however, this often entails feigning injuries of the said horse, thereby ruling him out of classic races; meanwhile, lacklustre performance is often explained away by claiming, for example, that the distance didn't suit or the pace was not fast enough. In many cases, the horse is retired early in the second season just after receiving an entry in the July Cup.
"St Nick:
A horse who displays a decent performance at the age of two, but who subsequently fails to progress. Yet, to preserve the horse's stud value, the trainer and connections continue to hype the horse at the age of three and beyond. To make the claims credible, however, this often entails feigning injuries of the said horse, thereby ruling him out of classic races; meanwhile, lacklustre performance is often explained away by claiming, for example, that the distance didn't suit or the pace was not fast enough. In many cases, the horse is retired early in the second season just after receiving an entry in the July Cup.
'slight setback' and 'stiffness' may be common terms used to indicate the definite target is not now on the agenda
'To make the claims credible, however, this often entails feigning injuries of the said horse, thereby ruling him out of classic races; '
'To make the claims credible, however, this often entails feigning injuries of the said horse, thereby ruling him out of classic races; '
PD fair play to you - unfortunately they cant all be superstars like STS.
This is hardly ground breaking stuff.
The earliest similar incident I can remember is Lomond suddenly being drafted in to win the 1983 Guineas (was it Danzatore who was fav throughout the winter ? Not sure). It has happened many times before and will happen again, the lack of timely info from Coolmore is regrettable but hardly restricted to them.
The earliest similar incident I can remember is Lomond suddenly being drafted in to win the 1983 Guineas (was it Danzatore who was fav throughout the winter ? Not sure). It has happened many times before and will happen again, the lack of timely info from Coolmore is regrettable but hardly restricted to them.
"is regrettable but hardly restricted to them."
What is disgraceful is that despite the drift on here they did not release a press notice until everyone including the stable cat had managed to lay the sh1t out of him.
But I agree it is not just confined to Ballydoyle. Bolger is another who thinks this is best practice.
What is disgraceful is that despite the drift on here they did not release a press notice until everyone including the stable cat had managed to lay the sh1t out of him.
But I agree it is not just confined to Ballydoyle. Bolger is another who thinks this is best practice.
The term 'St Nick' is also likely to enter the English language as relating to 'a fib' as in a devilish word spoken (pertaining to St Nick the devil).
I had a strong conviction all winter that EXACTLY this sort of thing would happen - only before the Guineas, not the Derby. It would have made much more sense then too.
Anyway, what we need is a journalist with balls - preferably one who is close to retirement snyway - to press O'Brien on the incontrovertible fact that the horse was dead on betfair 24 hours before he was declared to have been found stiff.
Anyway, what we need is a journalist with balls - preferably one who is close to retirement snyway - to press O'Brien on the incontrovertible fact that the horse was dead on betfair 24 hours before he was declared to have been found stiff.
New bit of rhyming slang. Throwing a st niki= sicki.
Add 'slight muscle injury'
kirk st. moritz Joined: 04 Feb 07
Replies: 645 01 Jun 10 10:00
'slight setback' and 'stiffness' may be common terms used to indicate the definite target is not now on the agenda
'To make the claims credible, however, this often entails feigning injuries of the said horse, thereby ruling him out of classic races; '
kirk st. moritz Joined: 04 Feb 07
Replies: 645 01 Jun 10 10:00
'slight setback' and 'stiffness' may be common terms used to indicate the definite target is not now on the agenda
'To make the claims credible, however, this often entails feigning injuries of the said horse, thereby ruling him out of classic races; '
What about this though. If you think Ballydoyle would deliberately scratch a horse they knew wasn't going to live up to the hype, why would they have run him in the Guineas? They really must have believed he was going to win, which does suggest he must have been working brilliantly at some point.
They know nothing then imo ... need to get some consultants in from this forum to tell them Montjeu's dont win over a mile on fast ground against the top milers each year.
He was I did see him a week or so ago........I hve no idea whats happend.But as some say thats racing,or "its happend before it will happen again we move on[;)]
Or as some would say ... what did he ever beat that would give him the form to win a Guineas against the top milers or a Derby when he prefers slow ground. The Arc might be an option with him once Jan Vermeer and co are trounced by Bullet Train in the Derby.
I hereby declare a new term for the forum -A 'St Nick'launch :
kirk st. moritz 01 Jun 10 08:59
.. is the term to be used when referring to a big mouth Ballydoyle horse who isnt what they say he is but would be a lovely type for breeding if he was. As in geese dressed as swans
Kirk and ben10,
Can we now change that from A'St.Nick' to a 'Steinbeck'?what strikes me as when SNA was beaten at NMKT within nano seconds you Kirk were pointing out how in your opinion you felt justified in being SNA biggest critic,claiming like ben10 to have seen great promise in Steinbeck,well now perhaps both of you will admit to being sucked in on Steinbecks hype,or perhaps you may both maintain the view that he really is a good horse!
kirk st. moritz 01 Jun 10 08:59
.. is the term to be used when referring to a big mouth Ballydoyle horse who isnt what they say he is but would be a lovely type for breeding if he was. As in geese dressed as swans
Kirk and ben10,
Can we now change that from A'St.Nick' to a 'Steinbeck'?what strikes me as when SNA was beaten at NMKT within nano seconds you Kirk were pointing out how in your opinion you felt justified in being SNA biggest critic,claiming like ben10 to have seen great promise in Steinbeck,well now perhaps both of you will admit to being sucked in on Steinbecks hype,or perhaps you may both maintain the view that he really is a good horse!
Yes a "Steinbeck" is fare more appropriate. SNA was champion 2 year old while Steinbeck has done jack on the racecourse.
Quite happy with my race reading skills, see the top two year old thread for the only one to spot the Fahey Royal Ascot winner, thanks for your concern though.
At the end of the day maybe Steinbeck isn't as good as I hoped but there's no point betting on the obvious as you will lose long term doing that and I felt (and still do) his Dewhurst run was full of promise. Things clearly didn't pan out right for him on Tuesday with the pacemaker failing in his duty and losing a shoe but whatever happens he probably isn't quite up to Canford's quality. Anyway, best of luck with your betting/gloating over losers.
At the end of the day maybe Steinbeck isn't as good as I hoped but there's no point betting on the obvious as you will lose long term doing that and I felt (and still do) his Dewhurst run was full of promise. Things clearly didn't pan out right for him on Tuesday with the pacemaker failing in his duty and losing a shoe but whatever happens he probably isn't quite up to Canford's quality. Anyway, best of luck with your betting/gloating over losers.
best of luck with your betting/gloating over losers.
not gloating over a loser ben10,just drawing comparisons with the immediate response to SNA being beaten and the total lack of any response after Steinbeck's defeat. It was very easy to ridicule anyone who had doubts about the real ability of Steinbeck by alluding to the amount of 'promise' in his defeats. Is it more that the promise *had* to be there as Aidan had talked him up so there must be something in that? As always there are the excuse trotted out for Steinbeck, he lost a shoe, pacemaker was slow to break, had to make his own running etc. But when will the excuses run out and why does a horse of such promise and ability need everything his own way? CC also lost a shoe, didn't stop him. Perhaps Steinbeck is less SNA and more Hawk Wing, lots of excuses for him too. Though at least he was placed in races. As mentioned above, SNA has the results in the book not just the 'potential'. Is it so hard to admit that hype swayed your opinion? I myself was willing to admit SNA had disappointed my expectations in the GNS. I have my doubts that Steinbeck is Gr 1 class let alone near Canford Cliffs quality.
not gloating over a loser ben10,just drawing comparisons with the immediate response to SNA being beaten and the total lack of any response after Steinbeck's defeat. It was very easy to ridicule anyone who had doubts about the real ability of Steinbeck by alluding to the amount of 'promise' in his defeats. Is it more that the promise *had* to be there as Aidan had talked him up so there must be something in that? As always there are the excuse trotted out for Steinbeck, he lost a shoe, pacemaker was slow to break, had to make his own running etc. But when will the excuses run out and why does a horse of such promise and ability need everything his own way? CC also lost a shoe, didn't stop him. Perhaps Steinbeck is less SNA and more Hawk Wing, lots of excuses for him too. Though at least he was placed in races. As mentioned above, SNA has the results in the book not just the 'potential'. Is it so hard to admit that hype swayed your opinion? I myself was willing to admit SNA had disappointed my expectations in the GNS. I have my doubts that Steinbeck is Gr 1 class let alone near Canford Cliffs quality.
As I said above he's probably not up to Canford Cliffs class. I've barely mentioned St Nick after the Guineas apart from in relation to the Derby, my last post is the first from me on this thread. The whole point of looking for horses like Steinbeck was to take on the short priced favourite who both me and Kirk were quite firm on being over rated in the betting, we got him beat and in this case there was a massive value winner which worked nicely for me.
One final point on Steinbeck; Lillie Langtry ran very similar the day after in the Irish 1000 Guineas and she improved to win. Starspangledbanner improved massively also from his reappearance, as have a few of the stables others. It was never beyond the realms of possibility that Steinbeck would do the same (given his injury problems) and maybe he still will one day, we will see, as always I will make my judgement race by race, but following that pattern (I didn't back Lillie fwiw) you'd be in a nice profit.
One final point on Steinbeck; Lillie Langtry ran very similar the day after in the Irish 1000 Guineas and she improved to win. Starspangledbanner improved massively also from his reappearance, as have a few of the stables others. It was never beyond the realms of possibility that Steinbeck would do the same (given his injury problems) and maybe he still will one day, we will see, as always I will make my judgement race by race, but following that pattern (I didn't back Lillie fwiw) you'd be in a nice profit.
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