Jan Vermeer's targets please?

Irish 2000G then more likely French Derby.

Why are they so keen to run him in the French Derby??

Imv their 2nd best 2yo of last season

ta,hmmm so probably Steinbeck,Fencing Master and Jan V in next week's race,gotta start somewhere but i'd have thought Jan V was more of a staying type

Agree D

Seems a waste sending JV to France

Why is it a waste sending him to France ? they have plenty of good horses, and rightly want to win a French classic. He has form over there, and if he trains on could end up a Arc prospect. It wouldn't make sense to run every single good horse over here.

Which are the good horses they are running over here??

SNA is he really a mile 1/2 horse?
CB as above
MT imv looked the deffo stayer of the 3

I'm guessing it's behind schedule and that's why we haven't seen it yet,just noticed it holds an entry in The St James Palace aswell,eh? was looking forward to this more than the likes of Cape Blanco with a view to the derby,same applies to Joshua Tree,god knows when that will appear

It makes perfect sense to target Jan Vermeer for the Prix du Jockey Club followed by the Eclipse.

i'd have thought RVW would be aimed at The Eclipse,if i was AOB after Paco Boy's performance i'd go for the POW then the Eclipse and stick to ten furlong races,whatever happens i can't see Jan Vermeer winning the Irish G over a mile

Which are the good horses they are running over here??

SNA is he really a mile 1/2 horse?
CB as above
MT imv looked the deffo stayer of the 3


Or we could loo at it as


Cape Blanco - half a second below Sariska's time carrying 2Ib more on 3y/o appearance, and first time over trip.

Midas Touch - excellent Derinstown winner who showed good pace and tenacity to win well.

SNA - we're led to believe he's potentially better than the two mentioned above.



It doesn't look like a vintage renewal. Therefore they should keep some ammo for other big races in other countries. They are a breeding operation as well, so it makes sense to broaden their horizons beyond these shores.

The time between the Prix du Jockey Club and the Eclipse is perfect. AOB has won 4 Eclipses, 3 of those winners were 3yo's (as was RVW last year).

The Prince of Wales's Stakes and the Eclipse is an either/or, not both.

As this is a 'live' thread - whats the deal with Godolphins Passion For Gold ? Criterium winner but didnt run in the Dante because of a back problem. Obviously got the class - anyone know the latest or does the 140 say it all ?

I think the 140 says it all mate. I think they are running Chabal(don't write him off) and Al Zir. PFG missed the dante obviously, and they said it was a pulled back muscle which keep him out for a few weeks. Given the proximity to the derby, he won't be ready.

The back problem was flagged a good few weeks before the Dante so depending on the severity he might be made ready for a run - you only get one go at the Derby ...

You never know. Maybe they will run him at Goodwood(can't think of any other preps) as a trial. I think they are more inclined to miss it all the same.

Not entered at Goodwood,just looked

As it stands I think its fair to say its an open year. If the horse is over its problems then even without a prep run they must be interested in running - especially if it turns up juicy ...

Eh? How is it a waste running him in the French Derby he is the Criterium International winner.
Remember AOB trains for Coolmore and they do actually breed horses in France [;)]

If he won the Prix du Jockey Club the perfect route would be the Prix Neil and Arc after that.

They normally keep one for the french middle distance races.
Scorpion / Age of Aquarius both good quality animals that were targeted at French races
Really must be behind though, OR they don't quite rate him like we, the wider betting public, do.  Who knows...

will a good run in irish 2000 see him on the Epsom trail. I wonder

Lbrokes betting suggests they might aim Fencing Master
at France and Jan at Epsom, the distances would suit their
breeding.

with Cape Blanco drifting,Jan Vermeer could be a 'definate possible' for Epsom

PP & laddys both jt shrtist 12s on jan...
also both going 2s sna..when theres plenty on 7/4

mmmmmmmmmmmm

If fit and turns up then this is the winner.  Midas for the forecast.

Jan Vermeer really is a beautifully bred son of Montjeu who looks a fine specimen of a colt. When he won the Criterium International at Saint-Cloud he was most impressive, and that run suggests he'll scope even better with a longer trip.

Don't forget he had the fantastic Midas Touch behind him in his Gowran Park maiden win, giving away 5lbs, a superb performance given how well Midas Touch has come on since then.

With only three career starts to date he is well open to more improvement which we will see this season, he is going to be a superstar

oooppps wrong account

e mail aiden . 
the derby irish derby   king george grand prixde paris arc de triomphe all definite possibles.

FFT

Runs over 10f in a G3 in Ireland over the weekend now. Interesting, still has a chance of lining up in the Derby

Arc winner imv.

Planteur the danger.

Has got Irish Derby written all over him imo

If Ballydoyle have so much confidence in SNA, you have to wonder why this chap is even being considered for Epsom.

Being very shrewd (Coolmore)will never rely on just one horse in a main race like the Derby,remember what happend in '06,they wont take anything for granted in racing,anything can and sometimes does go wrong.

New favourite come Sunday teatime.

belmont stakes.

Impressive stuff

Impressive indeed.

not going to Epsom is he?

Easily the Derby winner that.

Consumate ease.

will be a travesty if they do not let him go... Epsom should be for the best horses

Aidan O'Brien's Jan Vermeer (6-4 favourite) put himself right in the Investec Derby picture with an authoritative display in the Airlie Stud Gallinule Stakes.

Carrying a 7lb penalty for his victory in the Criterium International in November, Johnny Murtagh was content to settle his mount in mid-division behind the pace-setting Bobbyscot.

Murtagh merely had to shake the reins at the son of Montjeu and the response was immediate as he cruised past Bobbyscot, who did well to hold off several challengers for the runner-up spot.

Paddy Power cut the winner to 7-1 co-second favourite from 12s for the premier Classic, alongside stablemates Cape Blanco and Midas Touch.

O'Brien has the first four in the betting as St Nicholas Abbey is their 2-1 market leader.

O'Brien said: "He came here a couple of weeks ago for a canter and Johnny felt he'd be ready for a race in a couple of weeks and that is the way it was.

"He was very impressive and he has always had loads of class. There will be a good bit to come and the race will bring him on a lot.

"Johnny was very impressed and we'll now have to decide whether he goes to Epsom or to the French Derby.

"He's not short of speed and won his Group One last year with a lot of ease.

"We have Cape Blanco, St Nicholas Abbey, Midas Touch and this one and in an ideal world we'd like to divide them between Epsom and France.

"Hopefully we'll have made a decision by a week on Monday but Viscount Nelson is definitely in the mix for the French Derby after his run in the Guineas."

Sh1t !! 29's last week and was severely tempted and didn't. damn the it's a definate,possibly,maybe certain to line up in the derby,completely fooooooked off

We have Cape Blanco, St Nicholas Abbey, Midas Touch and this one and in an ideal world we'd like to divide them between Epsom and France.  backs up the poster who said SNA and MT for Epsom and CB and JV for France.

I still think Jan vermeer's off to France..

Meath the only horse they've run at Epsom after the Gallinule?

I think SNA and Midas Touch will go to the derby, Cape B to the French and Jan Vermeer to the Irish.

Michael Tabor will want to win the Epsom Derby not some imitation.

why would they want to send cape blanco to the french when thats there only hope of winning at epsom

If Jan Vermeer misses Epsom that is confirmation that Balldoyle don't think they have anything that can beat SNA.

Ballydoyle know very little IMVHO.  Consistently get it wrong, especially in Derby as to what is their best chance.

JAN VERMEER = DERBY WINNER.  Just hope its Epsom and not a poor imitation.

I often wonder if they deliberately put stable jock on the wrong horse to misdirect.

Il be surprised if JV wins the Derby on second thoughts,would like to see CB win personally having backed him at 25/1,o'Brien knows where he stands having won the Dante so if he doesnt send CB to Epsom then in all probabilty he fears nothing from York,the stat with Meath finishing last in the Derby having won the same race JV did yesterday is a worry and the 2 week gap still,wouldnt be confident backing SNA at the prices but Midas Touch could turn out to be winner in the end after the run at Leopardstown and the strong links the Derrinstown has to subsequent Derby winners,JV will probably go to the Irish Derby as one or two have suggested,CB to France(b o llox!) and the Abbey and MT to Epsom......

Jan Vermeer has twice beaten Midas Touch and was impressive. Genuinely no decision made re running plans yet. He was bound for the French Derby but Murtagh really impressed and they're all having seconnd thoughts. Kevbetting superstar thinks Ballydoyle know very little. Well, they have the first four in the betting for the Derby so they must be doing something right. Bet Frankie wouldn't mind riding for them.
  Fame And Fortune will be like Duke Of Marmalde, an awesome four year old. Coronation Cup, Irish Champion and the Arc looks the likely route.

Thats not what I said. 

Who is Fame & Fortune?

He's talking about ****

Frankie rode a classic winner for them before....

epsom . a definite possible
chantilly. a definite possible

I was just thinking the Irish derby because they usually give horses a 4 week break before running them before a classic. On the other hand he doesn't appear to be as hard to train as other horses, so might be ready by 5th/6th  anyway.

Well, they have the first four in the betting for the Derby so they must be doing something right.

With the money they spend they should have the first 6 in the betting. And when it comes to "tipping", they evidently know very little.

It would appear I can't abreviate Fame and Glory

With the money they spend they should have the first 6 in the betting. And when it comes to "tipping", they evidently know very little.

Don't kid yourself,they know,who is a big backer?why should they tell anyone anything?Thats up to the experts,or is it? some still wear rose tinted glasses,as last Sat'shows.

Their track record in deciding Derby is pretty poor
Last year RVW & Oratario not that long ago

fallon picked gypsy king not oratorio.

To Charlton 2005 - If spending money is the key, how many do Godolphin have at the head of the Derby betting? Still, they won the German Guineas, I suppose.
Aidan O'Brien was Champion Jumps Trainer in Ireland in his first four years holding a license, no big money behind him starting off then.
Anyway, lets not argue, we all love the game. Fame And Glory is the real deal now, and he handles every kind of ground. A Derby winner and runner up last year, yet in his trainer's opinion is only now really coming to the boil. They brought the jug to the well too often with Duke Of Marmalade, hope they are more selective this time. Shouldn't he be 6/4 for the Arc or am I missing something obvious?

JV would surely be better suited to 12f than 10f? Hardly had more than a strenuous canter so the 4 week rule doesn't apply. Has he more proven credentials than SNA? Yes. Send him to Epsom AND The Curragh

I think you are missing something Ballhopper...a few screws !  how should he be 6/4 for the Arc when we're at the end of May. I don't know where to start with that one !!

Shouldn't he be 6/4 for the Arc or am I missing something obvious?

the fact that he looked woefully one paced for a speedy track like longchamp in last years arc or his dire performance in the subsequent champion stakes might have something to do with it [smiley:crazy]

F&G has won 2 poor races easily. Wait until he starts meeting the 3 y olds then we will see how good he is. I think they should win everything they can before July because then the game will be well and truly up.

Okay, 6/4 way over the top. No question about last year's form tapering off badly Mythical Prince, and you could be right about three year olds brigust1 - though I suspect it will take a good one to beat him - the point I'm trying to make, badly perhaps, is that connections actually think he's a lot better this year than last.

I think they are hopeful and so far it looks like he's going the right way,its fine winning a couple of races early on including a soft GR1,he will have to up it this summer if he is still going to look serious.

Fair enough Prima Donna, you could well be right. But I've being going racing a long time and - whatever about being better this year than last - the staggering improvement he's shown between his races this season is something rare.
  His next port of call is the Prince Of Wales and it will take something special to hold him there.
I see Starspangledbanner in all the betting lists for the Kings Stand but the Golden Jubilee the much more likely target.

I don't think he's shown any improvement between his last two races has he? Recharge beaten another two lengths but the extra half furlong would easily account for that. Using Hallicarnassus as a line he's beat nothing worthy of a proper Group 1.

On the Arc he has the big stat to overcome of no horse ever having come back to win the Arc after running down the field in the previous year.

F&G is too one dimensional in his racing style. Won't suit a typical arc

what three year olds do you think are that good though Brigust1 ?

Look at the top 6 of the Derby market, reckon there is one in there that will be better than him, no idea which one though! Planteur and Sarafina from France could be anything. Some very good 3 year olds this year, will be tough for the older horses imo towards the end of the season.

Never really been a fan of F & G tbh, thought he was flattered in the Derby and then just fell apart after STS kept crushing him. Think he is seriously inferior to Rip Van Winkle as well.

He does seem to run well at the beginning of the season though and not sure which 3 year old would be battle hardened against him, but he may have fallen to pieces by then anyway.

yeah its hard to believe that for all his faults his level of performance on sunday doesnt put him a long way in front of all the three year old colts, certainly at this stage

however i agree with the one dimensional thing, basically the horse has one long withering run, but if conditions dont suit that, then he aint gonna win

F&G is a borderline Gp1 performer at best.  Surprised hes been kept in training.

Wont win a seriously contested Gp 1 ever.

"YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS"

Fecking only 1 1/2l 2nd in english derby to a wonder horse.....then finished close up to it again........and again.......

You CANNOT be serious.........SURELY

"Never really been a fan of F & G tbh, thought he was flattered in the Derby and then just fell apart after STS kept crushing him."

STS crushed everything.........yet here is F & G back after taking his 3yo beatings, handing them out.Get real, will take another superstar to beat him in the proper races, and I've not seen one.......yet.........

are you talking to me here, i'm confused.

Fame & Glory very similar to Soldieroffortune imo.

A very good horse, but not a brilliant one. Arc winners tend to be from the latter category.

May well have improved from 3 to 4.

Dessie, wouldn't you agree that those distances flattered F&G?

F&G is a pure staying horse who did not go to stud last term as to appeal to breeders he needs to win over 10f,beaten each time last year.Last weekends race was really a soft GR1,if he is going to have a chance of standing as a flat sire he needs to win the top 10f races this year,personally I doubt he can, I could see him winning the King George IF its not a very strong running.
I think he will face some very strong opposition this year,if he is a placed horse then they will sell him or stand him as a jump stallion as flat breeders wont touch him.

workonit, maybe he was flattered, we'll see this year now STS isn't around. Which horses at 4yo plus do you think will beat him over 10f this year?

It's the 3yo's that will find him out imo.

Maybe, but I haven't seen one yet that I could see beating him at 10f.

Its a shame STS was around last year, otherwise people wouldn't be crabbing him because he'd be an Epsom Derby winner.

Maybe thats because its only May,you figure it out,he will be exposed as a plod.

I missed the ten furlong bit of your question, and don't get me wrong, I ould see him having a season like DoM had.

He could win a few Group 1's (as long as Jan Vermeer doesn't run in them), but just like the Duke and SoF, he'll be found out again in the Arc by special types like JV and Planteur.

Cape Blanco is another who could troble him in 10f events.

DeSSieReborn 25 May 10 23:00   

Its a shame STS was around last year, otherwise people wouldn't be crabbing him because he'd be an Epsom Derby winner.

Bonkers statement on so many levels.

Fame & Glory isnt even the best older 10/12f horse in training in the uk/ire imo that would be Mawatheeq. Beat him hands down in champ stakes (although granted fame was well over top by then). 12f t rec holder @ Ascot. and is from the family of ghanaati,nayef and nashwan that improve with age.If Tregoning can iron out injury problems this horse is a multiple grp1 winner waiting to happen.

Remember F&G trying to win the Irish Champion last only chance was to go fast and hope!The great horse thrashed him.
When he meets a 10f horse again at GR1 level,the same result.

Winning at royal Ascot over 10f will definitely be more attractive to breeders then winning  at epsom over 1.5 miles.. I'm surprised they are even considering the coronation cup.

Some harsh reflections on Fame and Glory here.
If he hadn't run into the horse of the decade his record would look pretty impeccable and they'd have never have run him at Newmarket.  Agreed he's mopped up the Tattersalls for breeding purposes but conceivably could have improved and one only has to look at what they did with Duke of Marmalade and especially Dylan Thomas to see what they can do with a quality older horse.  The true tests are to come, but he's done nothing more than could be asked of him and will probably have a favourites chance a few more times this year.  He'll most likely go off too short all year, I won't be a backer but I wouldn't write him off at all.

double sh1t..........Cape looks to be certain non runner now,can i go back a week and back JV at 30's? didn't think so

You can have some of my 40 at 7 if your nice to me and laff at all my jokes ...