Zoffany

Solario stakes @Sandown Zil?

Might have been Geoff, twas september time, same week as Ma Biche beat Favoridge in the Cheveley Park (I only remember this week because i was in scotland at the time)

You're right of course, I meant lucky to have won a guineas in an easy year. He did it well on the day though, going away from those legends of the turf and prolific G1 winners Rebel Rebel and Kandidate.

3:15 Ultimatepoker.com 2000 Guineas Stakes(Group 1) (1) 1m
Going: Firm
Pos. (draw)    Dist.    Horse    Age    Weight    Eqp    Jockey    OR    In-Play Price    SPs and Advantage
Trainer        High    Low    BSP    ISP    +/-    Place
1 (17)         Footstepsinthesand    3    9-0        Kieren Fallon
A. P. O'Brien, Ireland        -    -         7.50          
2 (6)    1¼    Rebel Rebel (IRE)    3    9-0        Oscar Urbina
N. A. Callaghan        -    -         101          
3 (4)    ¾    Kandidate    3    9-0        Eddie Ahern
C. E. Brittain        -    -         101          
4 (15)    ¾    Oratorio (IRE)    3    9-0        Johnny Murtagh
A. P. O'Brien, Ireland        -    -         9          
5 (5)    hd    Dubawi (IRE)    3    9-0        Frankie Dettori
Saeed Bin Suroor        -    -         2.38          
6 (11)    nk    Democratic Deficit (IRE)    3    9-0        K. J. Manning
J. S. Bolger, Ireland        -    -         21          
7 (19)    1¼    Mister Genepi    3    9-0        Steve Drowne
W. R. Muir        -    -         101          
8 (10)    sh    Tony James (IRE)    3    9-0        Michael Hills
C. E. Brittain        -    -         67          
9 (14)    sh    Satchem (IRE)    3    9-0    t    Kerrin Mcevoy
Saeed Bin Suroor        -    -         41          
10 (1)    nk    Tucker    3    9-0        T. Quinn
D. R. C. Elsworth        -    -         34          
11 (8)    hd    David Junior (USA)    3    9-0        Richard Hills
B. J. Meehan        -    -         101          
12 (9)    1½    Party Boss    3    9-0        Darryll Holland
C. E. Brittain        -    -         26          
13 (16)    5    Iceman    3    9-0        Jimmy Fortune
J. H. M. Gosden        -    -         8          
14 (7)    1¼    Capable Guest (IRE)    3    9-0        Chris Catlin
M. R. Channon        -    -         101          
15 (13)    1¾    Diktatorial    3    9-0        Martin Dwyer
A. M. Balding        -    -         26          
16 (18)    ¾    Solent (IRE)    3    9-0        Richard Hughes
R. Hannon        -    -         101          
17 (2)    5    Pivotal Flame    3    9-0        Seb Sanders
E. S. Mcmahon        -    -         101          
18 (12)    nk    Elliots World (IRE)    3    9-0        K. Darley
M. Johnston        -    -         51          
19 (3)    7    Rob Roy (USA)    3    9-0        M. J. Kinane
Sir Michael Stoute        -    -         7          
19 ran | Winning time: 1m 36.10s

I don`t think it was a poor Guineas. Do you!?

Of the horses you have hilighted, Oratorio was a 10f horse who was well beaten in two gr 1 over a mile and Dubawi hated the ground. Rob Roy in finishing last hardly ran to form. Horses that finish last in a big fields are hardly form barometers. Fair enough Davind Junior won a few GR 1. but he wasn't too memorable.

Judging by the 2nd and 3rd who were G3 horses at best(on the aw and in America) It wasn't much of a Guineas.

7 subsequent Gr 1s between them.
David Jr won a Champion, Dubai Duty Free and an Eclipse! Hardly your run of the mill Gr 1s sinndar.
We all have our opinions.I think the stats back up my claim that it wasn`t a poor Guineas. You don`t. Fair enough.
The following year GW beat a bunch of trees but he`s considered to be a top class Guineas winner because of the manner in which he beat those trees.
I can live with that. It doesn`t detract from the fact that he beat an ordinary bunch.

And before someone repies with Sir Percy. He needed every inch of the Derby trip to win and was damn lucky to do so. Arafa reversed form with the winner in a bog so that really doesn`t count.

As Geoff & Zilzal have already pointed out the "original" Zoffany was a splendid animal and I find it rather sad that the powers at Coolmore felt the need to borrow the name - not once but twice as there appears to have been a previous "Coolmore Zoffany" who raced between 2002 & 2005.

On top of this we also have their "Johann Zoffany" whose ability fell somewhat short of his breeding (mind you being by Galileo out of a Royal Academy mare that was asking a lot!).

What I'm trying to say is that Oratorio and Dubawi didn't run to form so that weakens the form.

25/1 Zoffany for the Guineas an absolute steal gents

Zoffany's form looks dubious, to put it mildly.  For the Coventry Stakes I much prefer the claims of Strong Suit, who looked a very smart sort when winning on debut today (and recorded a fast time, to boot).  I think Strong Suit's stablemate Retainer is more likely to go for the Norfolk Stakes.

Fine performance from Zoffany there at Leop tonight gents. He did it superbly well and there's plenty more to come from this fellow

Nice call on Strong Suit there James.

Can't see Zoffany turning him over any time soon

Tyros Stakes for Zoffany next?

hows it going sof m8, big chance for the eclipse tommorow

He's a lovely fellow mate

any news on Flying Cross soldier ?

The Leger TDG, ours I mean

Hope all is well my friend.

Nice won.

Yep, fine thanks mate. Looking forward to Starspangledbanner and Lillie Langtry next week, think your boys are going to land a big double!

Pleased to hear all is well mate. I'm planning to make the trip across and for me the pair of them will be impossible to beat, Lilly in particular. Let me know if you're in Newmarket and we'll get a pint in.

The Leger SOF

I thought that beast could have been a real Top Class 1m4f and since is bred in the purple and by the last crop( i think) of Saddlers Wells it would have been a great send off to the great sire.

So impressed by the maiden victory last year[smiley:crazy]

Be grand to see Zoffany take this Group 3 tomorrow on his way to greater things.

C'mon fella

poor turn out for it with only 4 runners

Racing Post said of this fellow - "arguably one of the best juvenilles in Ireland this season. ...This race should be a formality.... group one performer in the making"

Superb performance there tonight gents, real Guineas contender this fellow

He's clearly quite a smart colt, but he's beaten nothing of note and I don't see why he should find the 8 lengths or so improvement needed to reverse Coventry Stakes form with Strong Suit.

The Coventry a step too far and too soon for him james. He's improved physically and he's matured too as the season has gone on and if you saw him there tonight you'd agree that he's a beautiful looking colt with a huge amount of ability.

If he comes up against Strong Suit again this season Zoffany will beat him.

Oh behave FFS. You give Coolmore a bad name with guff hype like that.

My 2 cents Ive been at Leopardstown for all his races there and tbh he can only beat what is put infront of him but lets call a spade a spade the opposition has been fairly $hite.
At this stage I wouldnt back him for the 2000g and I cant see that changing either he isnt what I would call an imposing or striking colt more a sharp nifty 2 year old than a future classic winning 3 yr old. In his defense he still looks very small in the back end so maybe he has plenty of growing left in him.
Murtagh picked Samuel Morse over him at Ascot not the first time the stable jockey wasnt on the best horse in that race you might say but he did finish a few lengths ahead of Zoffany. Samuel Morse is no world beater either I might add.
I think there could be better more late maturing 2 year olds out there that could well have the measure of this lad come the end of this season / next year and I think Ballydoyle are just mopping up races with him and who would blame them with the shocking turn out tonight the races are a gift for him.
Another positive I think the way he travels and races he would really suit America tho. Pump him full of lasix and youve got your Breeders Cup Turf Juvenile winner at Churchill this year there is a bit of Mr P in the bloodline you never know it could be the Juvenile on the dirt [smiley:crazy]

This is just my view and come a few months I really could have egg on my face but hey its all about opinions

I saw him tonight aswell and he didnt have much behind the saddle so him being a top two year is something i cant see.

If that wins the Guineas i'll swim nude down the Thames...

Murtagh picked Samuel Morse over him at Ascot not the first time the stable jockey wasnt on the best horse in that race you might say but he did finish a few lengths ahead of Zoffany. Samuel Morse is no world beater either I might add.

I've said before ignore his Coventry run anyway, travelled up nicely but the pace wasn't great and he got swamped by the speedier types, then kept on again when the winners had long gone, was a good run. BC Juv is a good shout though.

SOF you're a decent and very enthusiastic individual but if you keep this up you're in danger of becoming the antepost version of mfordy.

SOF's last post was beautiful. A real gem.

If he comes up against Strong Suit again this season Zoffany will beat him.

SOF has posted some rubbish in his time, but that really beats the lot.

Why is Rob Roy being highlighted as an example of FSITSs Guineas Quality?

I see this lad's entered up at Goodwood next week - doubt we'll be seeing him tho - opposition will be a bit stiff...

Truly magnificent performance!

Guineas winner!

Very taking how he knuckled down there.

Hope you can buy your own Dansili after than Soldier

yourbestmate Joined: 23 May 05
Replies: 63 24 Jul 10 22:53 
If he comes up against Strong Suit again this season Zoffany will beat him.

SOF has posted some rubbish in his time, but that really beats the lot.
-------------------

oops!!!

Nice one sof

A very puzzling race, not least because of the change of tactics by Richard Hughes on Strong Suit.  He's a very smart colt when held up and allowed to challenge from off the pace, but today he was a shadow of the horse we saw in the Coventry.  Also, he's very effective on top of the ground and may not have performed to his best in today's conditions.  It will be interesting to hear what Hannon and Hughes have to say after the race.  Zoffany, by contrast, is clearly very effective on yielding ground.  He should get a mile, but is he a Guineas winner?  I somehow doubt it.  I would fancy Strong Suit to reverse the form on fast ground.

james my friend its very very simple.

Zoffany is a better racehorse than Strong Suit.

If only racing was that simple.

Agree puzziling tactics from Hughes, don't think Strong Suit is going the right way though and Zoffany will race over further from now on and that can only be to his benefit. As I said above ran a big race in the Coventry.

Hughes did the same on Music Show last week in France. She was never going to beat Goldikova but she was up the front all the way when her big win at Newmarket came when she was held up. Very odd.

As others have alluded to on other threads, the Coventry seems to take its toll and can take a lot out of a horse.  It seemed to take Canford Cliffs longer to recover from his exertions in the Coventry last year than his astute trainer believed at the time.  Art Connoisseur (the 2008 winner) was a disappointing beaten favourite in the Phoenix Stakes and didn't recover his form until the Golden Jubilee a year later.  Henrythenavigator (the 2007 winner) was also turned over at odds-on in the Phoenix.  Red Clubs (the 2005 winner) disappointed in the July Stakes and the Phoenix Stakes before returning to form in the Gimcrack and the Middle Park.  Iceman (the 2004 winner) was given a three month break and ran very well next time in the Champagne Stakes.  Three Valleys (the very impressive 2003 winner) was another beaten odds-on favourite in the Phoenix Stakes.  Strong Suit needs a couple of months break now before he returns to action in either the Middle Park, the Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere or the Dewhurst.

soldieroffortune

how did I know what your take on that race would be???

Time will tell which one is best. My view is that Glor Na Mara will prove the best of the three in time. He has only had 2 runs and has easily the most scope to improve, especially over a bit further.

Can't believe any of these will prove the best GB and Ireland 2 year olds.

More shoite from our friend in the know, SOF.

SOF, any news on You'll Be Mine yet please .. I only asked 2 months ago.

The fact that AOB Group 1 winner is what 8/1 for the Guineas means their is stacks loads of horses to come out that are potentially just as good as Zoffany or better

lads the best 2yr old hasnt run yet,stoute trains him,dumbarton

Watched this again and not sure the form is worth much. The time was slow and they finished in a heap.

Strong Suit was pedal to the metal in the last furlong at Ascot, seeming to have a hard race ultimately. As has been pointed out previously on this thread, today's race is a bit of a graveyard for Coventry Stakes winners. Couple that with the fact Strong Suit was running on ground on the soft side of good for the first time, as well as having to travel abroad (Zoffany disappointed to a much greater degree when travelling to Ascot but has since returned better than ever), it was a tough ask for SS to follow up today. I've rated SS as running a couple of pounds below his Ascot form, which on the basis of previous information, arguably entitles him to improve a good 7lbs if reappearing later in the season after a break in the Dewhurst or Middle Park. I don't think Hannon will be keen to run away from home again this season after today's performance, especially given the prevalence of softer ground in France.

legend100 Joined: 02 Jun 10
Replies: 115 08 Aug 10 20:11 
lads the best 2yr old hasnt run yet,stoute trains him,dumbarton

stoute is finshed

[smiley:crazy] only the derby this year aye

Anyone who wasn't seriously impressed with Zoffany today must've been watching a different race.

Considering the 6f would have been on the short side for him, the MASSIVE move he put in to reel in the front two , before cruising past them was a real sign of quality.

We all know to forgive a horse a run at Ascot and the 2nd and 3rd could well be top class themselves but that, fellas, was just class

ascot 'form' nowdays is a law unto itself,very impressed with zoffany yesterday,not that i will be backing him at the price he is now for gns but that was a decent effort

I am sure that many will disagree but I would be pretty surprised if we saw the Guineas winner yesterday. However if we did it is still most likely to be a "back to form" Strong Suit.

That should get them going

Chances are that there will be better then these three out before the season is out. However they are three different snd pretty decent colts. They did pull away from the fourth quite a way, and Zoffany is clearly talented especially as he needs further, Strong Suit may conceivably have had excuses, and Glor ne Mara is a likely big improver. Wouldn't be that big a shock if one of these three ended up winter Guineas favourite.

If SOF really had the word on their horses, he'd be able to tell us about any up and comers. Zoffany may be a good horse but not one i'd be backing at this stage.

Rock Of Gibraltar also ran plenty of times at 2 (made it's debut in the exact same maiden race as Zoffany at Leopardtown in AprilGrin) and was beaten a couple of times as well. He was always in the shadow of the alleged 'wonderhorse' Hawkwing yet he still trained on to be a half decent 3 year old[;)]. On pedigree Zoffany has plenty of scope to be a very decent miler at 3.

SOF is a Dub. He is a big fan of The Bohs, a north Dublin soccer team and himself and Workrider who supports Shamrock Rovers a South Dublin side shared plenty of banter on the irish forum before Workrider got banned.

I doubt if he finds his way down to Cashel too often where all the ballydoyle gossip is likely to be!!

What annoyed me about Zoffany was that Aiden O'Brien said about a fortnight ago that his main hope for the race was going to be Samuel Morse. Is he trying to put off the trail or what. It seemed to me that Zoffany was the more obvious.
National Stakes he says next. That will probably be correct as he aint got an obvious alternative for it.

What ever happened to his good sorts by Holy Roman Emperor?Wonder if they are as good as his top miler Steinbeck?If they are his stud fee will plummet!!!

What annoyed me about Zoffany was that Aiden O'Brien said about a fortnight ago that his main hope for the race was going to be Samuel Morse.

Zoffany not sired by a Coolmore stallion so it is only with gritted teeth that they will accept he's the best they've got. Meanwhile every colt by one of their own is a lovely fellow beautifully bred with a huge future. [;)]

In fairness now Rex remorium(spelling) and holy alliance still have to come out

A-T,Coolmore have a joint breeding arrangement with Juddmonte.Just in case you didn't know that.

Coolmore be delighted with Zoffany as its a Dansili. They can use him on all their own mares without a risk of inbreeding even though although ultimately they all come from the same Sire in Northern Dancer save for the Giants Causeway and Footsteps and Henry.

The "Natural Speed" line will certainly work.

How about Zoffany and Laddies Poker two offspring[:o] SPEED!

Yuck Laddies Poker two is a Choisir....Danehill Dancer...eh what sort of inbreedness would that be

Their stallion strategic prince also by dansili

Are cracks starting to appear in the form?

Golden Fleece Stakes
1. Zoffany
2. Stentorian -- stuffed in the Solario Stakes won by Native Khan

Phoenix Stakes
1. Zoffany
2. Glor Na Mara -- beaten by Pathfork in the Futurity

Massive opportunity this weekend for Zoffany to show us that he's the Champion 2YO!

Absolute superstar this young fellow

Halford's is far too big a price in this.

Extremely dissapointing run from Zoffany - never looked remotely like getting involved.

Overrated colt - the Pheonix stakes was a muddling race. Apparently Murtagh said yesterday he's their best 2 year old - I hope for their sake he's wrong.

Ground far too soft for him there yesterday but a fine effort.

He's a much better horse on better ground and he's the one they'll all have to beat next May.

Totally disagree with the above post. Connections WILL be disappointed with that performance from Zoffany.

soldier

I personally do not write off Zoffany, not on that ground. However I just think that maybe the form with Strong Suit and the Bolger colt looks a bit less exciting than it did before and now there have been two potential superstars emerge like the godolphin beast and henry's tank.

The ground was one factor.  But a number of Ballydoyle's juveniles have failed to fire in the last week or two.  All four of their runners were unplaced in the Listed race at the Curragh this afternoon.  They are still having the occasional juvenile winner (Oracle yesterday for example), but overall they seem to have gone off the boil.

zoffany looks a bit on the small side to me and has already had a lot of racing. is this the profile of a guineas winner with the likes of saamid, frankel and pathfork about? I don't think so.

and as for mordin's view of zoffany, that he only had to turn up to win the national stakes and dewhurst, all i can say is

and he's the one they'll all have to beat next May.

sorry soldier mate i appreciate your bias towards ballydoyle but that statement is plain laughable.

i wouldnt be writing zoffany off yet had no chance in that ground on faster surface you will see a different horse having said that i think  pathfork will be better on a faster surface as well.

Pathfork will definitely be better on quicker ground has has much more scope to develop from 2 to 3.

Another short distance Irish race finishing like a grand national. What a crock of ****.

SOF,

Any view on the ladies classic in early may ? I have it between together and misty for me but not sure which to back, any pointers ?

^ pmsl, how many accounts do you have sof ffs

either that or the obrien worshippers are everywhere

Rowley Mile, do you seriously fancy either Misty For Me or Together for the Guineas?  The Moyglare form doesn't look that great, with less than two lengths covering the first four.  Together has now been well beaten in two pattern races and is beginning to look rather exposed.  Misty For Me is the best of the Ballydoyle fillies so far, but I'm looking forward to the debut of Guessing (by Kingmambo out of Imagine), who has been left in the Cheveley Park Stakes and the Fillies' Mile at the recent forfeit stage.

Zoffany reminds me alot of Henrythenavigator.......dont write Zoffany off on fast ground in may!!!!

I have it between together and misty for me

keep taking the medication [:p]

james, rowley mile is actually sof trying to have a convo with himself [;)]

mythical thanks as always for your kind words on here

I can categorically assure you that I am not Rowley Mile and I would also think he'd be very happy to report that he isn't me!

Rowley Mile I would think that at this stage Misty For Me looks like having the greater scope for improvement.

Together started her season in great style and she was a superb winner of a Group 3 at Leop in mid-July. Subsequently she ran very green in the Debutante and then she got outpaced at a critical stage in the Moyglare. She's shown a good attitude thus far and clearly on breeding she's the type to do well over a mile and further next season. It'll be very interesting to see how she develops over the winter.

Misty For Me came on a ton for her debut and she won her Maiden in great style. She then ran a cracker in the Debutante and was a fully deserving winner of the Moyglare there the last day, beating a high quality field. She's a very interesting filly on breeding being by Galileo out of a Storm Cat mare and this could open up all kinds of options for her next season. I would think they'll start her off in the Guineas and take it from there subsequently in terms of keeping her at a mile or stepping her up in trip. At this stage she looks the stronger of the two Ballydoyle fillies.

Both fillies will be fully deserving of their place in what already is shaping up to be a high quality line up next May. jamesp has already flagged up a couple of excellent fillies from across the water and it should be some race!

Together has absolutely no chance in the Guineas and should not even be considered for the race.

Rowley Mile
Joined: 18 Nov 08
Replies: 471 12 Sep 10 21:08   
SOF,

Any view on the ladies classic in early may ? I have it between together and misty for me but not sure which to back, any pointers ?



Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit i know but in fairness i did get a paragraph of a reply from him and it is exactly what i wanted from him and to be honest i didn't think even he could put the message for together and misty for me in to so many bloody word ffs lol

Re:Zoffany; He’s a fine looking colt and a beautifully bred individual as a Dansili out of a Machiavellian mare. He’ll take a world of beating there at Royal Ascot

Re:Misty for Me; She's a very interesting filly on breeding being by Galileo out of a Storm Cat mare and this could open up all kinds of options for her next season.



Two abosulte crackers there, this pedigree knowledge shouldn't be wasted on the clowns on the antepost forum imo and should be saved exclusively for the Bloodstock & Breeding forum in fairness.

I reckon even if zoffany was by roselier out of a phardante mare he would have enough speed/class to win a july cup and enough stamina/class to win next year's leger being a beautifully bred individual, obviously the posibilities are endless.

P.s; Dalymount Park is in serious need of a revamp.

sof wont mind, he knows we're only teasing [;)]

lol

'RowleyMile, I would think at this stage.............'

legend100
08 Aug 10 20:11 Joined: 02 Jun 10 | Topic/replies: 1,612 | Blogger: legend100's blog
lads the best 2yr old hasnt run yet,stoute trains him,dumbarton