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08 Apr 08 12:43
Date Joined: 05 Oct 03
| Topic/replies: 11,054 | Blogger: zilzal1's blog
Please put all observations for Flat racing this season on one thread so we can send it to the gambling commission in Oct under the file "giving misleading information to the public"

Every time you attend a meeting, or spot a misleading going report-stick it on here.

Newcastles one on sat was a start, Good to soft, soft in the 1st two furlongs with good to firm patches in the last 2 furlongs was the advanced given, and the official was good to soft soft in places. RP time based was Heavy, and the fact that Markab, who won the 7f as easy as you liked had won on it before supports this, Pertempts had also won on soft

Another meaningless entry into the form book
Pause Switch to Standard View Clerkwatch 2008
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Report jonjo December 8, 2008 1:39 PM GMT
Cheers matey, appreciate that.
Report jonjo December 12, 2008 8:37 AM GMT
Report guinness2dear December 15, 2008 2:29 PM GMT
Report jonjo December 18, 2008 10:19 AM GMT
Jumps season is pretty broing without the daily jousting between punters & clerks as to who will/wont water & what the going will be like.....It's all a bit safe & boring innit? :^0
Report johnn December 18, 2008 10:24 AM GMT
And shocking to watch/punt in. IMO, of course.
Report jonjo December 18, 2008 10:27 AM GMT
There's that as well Johnn.....

Must admit, I am missing my weekly pops at Katherine, Kirkybabes & the bird at Winzer.....
Report johnn December 18, 2008 10:30 AM GMT
It's not as if there's nowt to groutch at though?
Channel 4 / BBC / Deano & Blockers / BHA / boats sinking off the Ayrshire coast and Katherine not noticing, etc...
Report turnip turns December 18, 2008 3:59 PM GMT
March 29th Doncaster is when the flat seasons starts,in case somebody wants to know ;)
Report johnn December 18, 2008 4:02 PM GMT
Report turnip turns December 18, 2008 4:05 PM GMT
Report jonjo December 18, 2008 4:23 PM GMT
That's a bit late, I was hoping for the 27th or 28th.....
You can see I am struggling for things to moan about....
Report guinness2dear December 18, 2008 4:27 PM GMT
Tescos have increased the price of tinned tomatoes by a ridiculous 90%, if that's any use ?
Report turnip turns December 18, 2008 4:27 PM GMT
Very,very late for johnn imo.
Report turnip turns December 18, 2008 4:29 PM GMT
Tescos have increased the price of tinned tomatoes by a ridiculous 90%, :0
Report turnip turns December 18, 2008 4:30 PM GMT
jonjo moan,shirley not ;)
Report jonjo December 18, 2008 6:22 PM GMT
How much were they?
Report turnip turns December 18, 2008 6:46 PM GMT
10p imo.
Report guinness2dear December 18, 2008 7:12 PM GMT
Was 18p now 33p... a feckin disgrace...
Report jonjo December 19, 2008 9:16 AM GMT
33p for a tin of toms' is tekkin the p' imo.
The chopped (saves time) 'savers' ones will be the toms' of choice from here on in....
Report guinness2dear December 19, 2008 9:36 AM GMT
I am most sorry to inform of this this mucker, but THEY were the saver's ones.. I have already instructed one of my secretary's to compose a strongly worded complaint to the hierachy at "1000's of offers at Tesco's" maybe a fred on chit-chat is in order ?
Report johnn December 23, 2008 7:31 AM GMT
Report guinness2dear December 24, 2008 9:36 AM GMT
All the best for the the upcoming festivities to everyone (and families) on the fred....
Report jonjo December 24, 2008 11:11 AM GMT
Yes, here's hoping we see someone grasp the nettle & sort something out about ACCURATE going reports for the poor punters in 2009.......
Hard to hold out any hope when people who get warned off can still work as 'stable lads' & serial miscreants get welcomed back into the fold like the prodigal son, but there you go eh.....
Merry Christmas.
Report johnn December 24, 2008 12:00 PM GMT
Merry Christmas to all penetrometer lovers.
Report guinness2dear December 24, 2008 12:02 PM GMT
Disgraceful decision by the BHA, the fat tw@t should have been given a job as a price-controller at Tesco's....
Report GT December 25, 2008 3:30 PM GMT
nice to see the clerks now checking the ground conditions at kempton with a spin on the star horses like harchibald.....

don't recall johnny fenwick-clennell hacking round carlisle on monet's....
Report Aussi in Uk December 25, 2008 6:35 PM GMT
It's become an absolute joke now.

Can't wait for Clerkwatch 2009
Report jonjo December 27, 2008 7:46 AM GMT
Taking their time calling off Wetherby today.....
Report onlooker December 31, 2008 2:56 PM GMT
RADGEPOT 31 Dec 15:47

THE Turftrax GoingStick becomes mandatory on all British racecourses from Thursday - though some clerks of the courseand trainers remain sceptical about its merits.

The hand-held instrument, which scientifically measures penetration and shear over different parts of a racing surface to produce a going reading, has been on trial for the past two years.

Wetherby's clerk of the course Jonjo Sanderson said on Wednesday: "The new instruction which comes into force at the start of the year stipulates that we have to give one reading prior to declarations and another before racing.

"One will therefore be taken on the morning of the day before racing or the afternoon before that, and the other on raceday."

He added: "I am not its biggest fan, because in my opinion there cannot be a set figure that will give a correct reading for all 60 racecourses, because the soil structure on each track varies so much."

yeahyeahwhatever 31 Dec 15:49
So that does mean that we'll now get our going as a number or will it still be the usual Gd-Sft etc?

Roger De Bris 31 Dec 15:50
clerks arent fans of it, i wonder why?...................
Report jonjo December 31, 2008 6:43 PM GMT
Making something compulsory that doesn't even work properly.....

Another kick in the nuts for serious punters.
Report GT January 2, 2009 2:52 PM GMT
1st entry for 2009......

Why was Ayr cancelled, ground is spot on ??
Report johnn January 2, 2009 2:56 PM GMT
very mild today. Certainly could race tomorrow....
Report GT January 2, 2009 3:10 PM GMT
yes strange johnn, very quick to call off

I know it was white yest, but ok today
Report jonjo January 3, 2009 7:52 AM GMT
ttt for Gart
Report gart January 3, 2009 7:54 AM GMT
what does ttt mean , jonjo?
Report Win only - Sp only January 3, 2009 8:45 AM GMT
folkestone chase going stick 6.7 good
folkestone hurdles good/soft 6.7

Report jonjo January 3, 2009 9:02 AM GMT
They are idiots

This thread is proof of that.

Nice to see Francome actually caught on to what we've been saying on here for ages on The Morning Line today but it does the programme no credit whatsoever that Stevenson has been emailed COUNTLESS times about this very subject & chose to ignore our pleas for someone to speak up.....
Report guinness2dear January 7, 2009 11:13 AM GMT
Can anyone of my Scottish brethren confirm that Mussels was perfectly raceable today ? After the Ayr debacle and Kempers lightning decision yesterday, my cynical being is returning....
Report jonjo January 7, 2009 12:39 PM GMT
I've emailed my man near the track.
I will let you know the outcome.......
Report johnn January 7, 2009 12:43 PM GMT
I spoke to a relative, who lives 5 miles away. Last night was mild and wet. Eirrog also confirms this.
Looks like another mistake, by not arranging to look this morning, at the very least.
Report jonjo January 7, 2009 12:47 PM GMT
Email returned, my man in the sporran & the walking boots confirms that this should have been ok.
He went to the 5f pole & walked the width of the track & states it was fine in his view.
He pegged his going description as good/gd-fm in places
Report johnn January 7, 2009 12:50 PM GMT
Madness, I was set for a day out today.
My mate swears his kids got more in their Xmas cards than he earns laying these days, but premature cancellations can hardly help.
Report guinness2dear January 7, 2009 1:36 PM GMT
Thanks brethren, yet another C o C up....

All we need now is to see Lyds wearing a sombrero and sunglasses at Kempers on Saturday.....
Report jonjo January 7, 2009 4:28 PM GMT
If that's all she's wearing I'll tune in, despite being pig-sick of the all weather dross !
Report guinness2dear January 18, 2009 10:11 PM GMT
Report guinness2dear January 21, 2009 1:23 PM GMT
Another total CoC up at Hunter's today, and lack of relevant questioning to said CoC by RUK. I despair, i really do.... :(
Report Win only - Sp only February 24, 2009 10:13 PM GMT
folkestone 25th feb

GOOD TO SOFT, Good in places; GoingStick: malfunctioned . (Misty and fairly cloudy for much of the day, although it will stay dry; moderate south-westerly winds)

you couldn't make it up
Report GT February 24, 2009 11:27 PM GMT
no wonder they get 'stick'
Report jonjo February 25, 2009 6:24 AM GMT
Only a matter of time before one of these overpaid numpties 'malfunctions' imo.......
That HAS to be THE biggest load of sh!t ever used as an excuse by a clerk of the course......Wonder who (at the BHA) will get medeival on this idiot's @rse & fine them, or at least issue a written warning?
Where's the nearest track they could get another 'stick' from?
Why do they not have spares?
WTF are they doing pre-racedays other than checking the ground is a) safe b)the condition of the ground????????

Just a note, well done to the lady in charge at Bangor-On-Dee.
She was on RUK the other day (24/2) & they are having a day to celebrate 150yrs of racing at the track. She has resisted the temptation to promote a 'bouncy castle' face painting, all day drinking & is giving people the chance to find out about the history of this track by making information available about some of the top horses/jockeys/trainers etc that feature in the history of the course.
I hope she is rewarded with a good turn out for not thinking racing is followed exclusively by imbeciles........
Report bacchanal February 25, 2009 7:20 AM GMT
I heard her interview with Angus "Yes Willo Yes" McNae and she seemed uncharacteristically clued-up & forward-thinking.
Report jonjo February 25, 2009 7:37 AM GMT
She was like a breath of fresh air Bacchy.
I would love to see someone like her in charge at a top track.
(pity they aren't all interviewed on the basis that they ought to be like her tbh)
Report turnip turns March 2, 2009 7:24 PM GMT
Watering began today on the new course at Cheltenham,we have a week to go before it all starts ffs,drives me mad.Good ground horses will never get the chance to show there best form at this meeting,on the first day we have two speed races,supreme and the champion hurdle,and yet the CoC must have his soft in the going description,mindboggling.
Report The Sweaty Sock March 2, 2009 7:30 PM GMT
GoingStick: malfunctioned - Heard it all now, what a bunch of clowns.

And 'soft' Simon ( can we call him that now? ) has turned on the hoses just before the rain comes to Cheltenham , backfire bigtime soon.
Report turnip turns March 2, 2009 7:33 PM GMT
The Sweaty Sock 02 Mar 20:30
GoingStick: malfunctioned

Your not joking SS are you ?
Report Fastbearform March 2, 2009 7:36 PM GMT
Fastbearform 02 Mar 18:58

The guy is a TOTAL AEROSOLE!

Fastbearform 02 Mar 18:59

Report jonjo March 3, 2009 7:32 AM GMT
Some very worrying subtext to all of this 'watering to produce safe ground' business....
1. What's the score with summer jumping? plenty of osses rattling round some of those tracks, but of course it's not a showpiece like Cheltenham, so do animalaid not consider this worthy of protest?
2. Claisse has already backtracked on what he said to the public on ATR on Sunday, when he assured people he was going to 'wait' & see what the weather was...
3. Who has asked for going on the (lets not dress it up here) DEAD side for the first day is what their horses want?
4. Who inadvertently 'funded' all the drainage work (in fact all the work since the year dot) at Cheltenham & what say did this group of people have into the watering policy (ladies & gentlemen, I give you the always neglected PUNTERS)

There's going to have to be a strike imo.
Report The Sweaty Sock March 3, 2009 8:49 AM GMT
turnip - see previous page.
Report goldenfleecer. March 3, 2009 11:29 AM GMT
turnip turns 02 Mar 20:24

Watering began today on the new course at Cheltenham,we have a week to go before it all starts ffs,drives me mad.Good ground horses will never get the chance to show there best form at this meeting,on the first day we have two speed races,supreme and the champion hurdle,and yet the CoC must have his soft in the going description,mindboggling.

There is no one word to desribe how stupid and utterly brainless these clerks of the course are.
Absolutely baffling that they have started watering with a very unsettled forecast for the Gloucester region.

Really makes you want to roar from stalls, you bloody imbeciles!!!
Report jonjo March 3, 2009 2:05 PM GMT
But where is the censure?
Where is the revised guideline from the BHA regarding 'safe' ground for jumps racing????
Why are the press not all over this like a dose of the clap....

Accepting this SOP to Animalaid & the like is taking racing down a perilous road imo......They need to completely reinvent this sport as some sort of equine lottery the way they are going, because no one taking it seriously will be betting on it in five years if something isn't done soon.........135mil Levy forcasts in three years......CLOUD F'IN CUCKOO LAND, THE BLOODY LOT OF EM!!!!!
Report willsford March 3, 2009 2:33 PM GMT
What % of " knowledgeable" racing people would of advised watering 24 hrs before heavy rain was forecast for that area.... ??
Report J.D.Salinger March 3, 2009 2:37 PM GMT
I don't agree with the watering policy of most racecourses, but to play devil's advocate for a minute, the last time the festival was run on good/fast ground, Cheltenham racecourse was littered with dead horses. I'm not sure of the exact number, but I think 7 or 8 died, and it proved to be a PR disaster for National Hunting racing.

I'm sure this is paramount in Simon Claisse's thinking, to avoid any further adverse publicity.
Report goldenfleecer. March 3, 2009 3:52 PM GMT
Never even a remote chance of that happening this year JD, just take a look at how quickly Exeter turned from good to a virtual quagmire today.
Report turnip turns March 3, 2009 3:56 PM GMT
Really winds me up all this,no need for it,look at Doncaster Saturday,good to firm ffs,can you imagine this happening at Chelts,not a chance.These CoCs are pandering to the politically correct,its b011ox.

Guess what,its been raining today at Cheltenham.All this,is one of the reasons why i haven't had one single AP bet at Cheltenham.
Report jonjo March 3, 2009 3:56 PM GMT
JD, I would suggest that ANY course where it is unsafe for horses to be competing at racing pace on genuine 'good' ground needs closing & it's configuration seriously looked at before they are allowed to race again...
People cite Cheltenham being ultra competetive (most are trying for a change is my spin on that) but if a 'championship course' is unfit for purpose, it should be scrapped & these races run somewhere 'safe' without the need to pick the pockets of the people financing this sport by turning it into equine bingo.....
I have no personal ae to grind here either, as I am predominately a flat punter & will have lost more out of my @rse pocket running for a bus than I will at Cheltenham next week.....
Report goldenfleecer. March 3, 2009 8:59 PM GMT
Report ben10 March 3, 2009 9:08 PM GMT
I notice Bristol and Yeovil's footy games had to be called off tonight, perhaps we've got more rain than expected.
Report goldenfleecer. March 3, 2009 9:11 PM GMT
Also Ben Gloucesters game in the southern premier was called off from waterlogging, Gloucester been not much more than a stone throw from Cheltenham.
Report goldenfleecer. March 3, 2009 9:57 PM GMT

Report ben10 March 3, 2009 10:03 PM GMT
Thing is there appears to be plenty of rain on the way but there's also some gaps where he might start to get tempted, the way he's talking seems if it's not a 100% chance he's gong to look to water.
Report jonjo March 3, 2009 10:14 PM GMT
Ben, if he waters during the 'gaps' you mention, they might as well get Hamilton Bland to commentate.....
Report goldenfleecer. March 3, 2009 10:20 PM GMT
:D Jockeys will be replacing their silks for wetsuit, flippers & snorkel if the forecast proves correct and the ding dong continues to water.

Probaby have to park a couple of Lifeboats and crew in the middle of the track in the event of a jockey falling off.
Report jonjo March 4, 2009 6:05 PM GMT
Any weather updates from the Cotswolds?
Report The Sweaty Sock March 4, 2009 6:48 PM GMT
The fact he says today he won't water again is testament to the fact he has made a mistake yet again by watering when he shouldn't have - the dopey man that he is.
Report goldenfleecer. March 4, 2009 7:00 PM GMT
Simon's blog
Simon Claisse, Cheltenham's Director of Racing and Clerk of the Course, shares his thoughts on the state of the ground and keeps you up to date with preparations for The Festival.
For the latest going and Turftrax Map click here
Wednesday 4th March - Start date minus 6 days. The rain arrived yesterday, although at the lower end of expectations in terms of quantity. From lunchtime until midnight we had 11mm - although Exeter had 32mm and Epsom 20mm during the same period! The going on each track is now as follows: Old (Tues/Wed) - good to soft; New (Thu/Fri) - good to soft, soft in places; Cross country (Tues) - soft, heavy in places. The latest weather forecast for the next week or so is: showery for the next couple of days, dry on Friday and Saturday, with further rain possible on Sunday. With conditions as they are, and the forecast as it is, we are not anticipating any further watering at this stage. Next week we are looking at possible showers in the first half of the week and dry with slight frosts in the middle to end of the week. As far as trainers are concerned, Bob Buckler came and schooled his cross country horses, which went well, and Noel Meade's team is due to arrive on Friday.

Make of that what you like, be sure he is not telling the whole truth!!
Report jonjo March 4, 2009 8:49 PM GMT
Heavy in places on the cross country course after the couple of weeks we've had........That is nothing short of disgusting imo.
God alone knows how people who save up for this lottery all year must be feeling.....I am gutted for them.
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 8:11 AM GMT
Just posted this on the main horse racing forum after yesterdays shambles at Haydock, asking the BETFAIR marketing team to look at doing something over this issue.....

Betfair, unlike the bookmakers who sponsor races, are in a unique position, something that I dont personally think you make enough of......
Unlike bookmakers, it is in the interests of ALL your stakeholders, that the sport of horse racing is run on a level playing field...

Yesterday (& not for the first time) we had a situation at Haydock Park (a course where you are major sponsors) where the actual going, bore no resemblence to the advance going given by the clerk of the course....

The clerk's performance has been poor since day one
The Levy board are simply not interested in giving punters a fair crack of the whip though, or these serial liars/underachievers would be severely reprimanded at best & at worst have all levy funding withdrawn if this sort of rubbish continued....

Punters are getting sicker & sicker at this state of affairs & as the levy yield continues to fall there is a common denominator here, in that NO ONE IS LOOKING OUT FOR THE PUNTERS ON THIS ISSUE.
The conventional bookmakers love it & since gross profits tax was brought in, the Levy people are hardly likely to see the bigger picture are they?

Let's not forget this man absolutely TORPEDOED the Sprint Cup in 2007 with his ridiculous watering policy.
There will be people with allotments near Haydock Park that would have more idea regarding turf management.

Look at the 'analysis' of the bumper winner...

The non-runners took a large slice of interest out of this bumper. It was run at a crawling early gallop and produced a taking winner in MISTER WALL STREET, who got his career off to a perfect start.

He made up his ground turning for home and it was clear around 3f out that he was the one to be on. He did not have to be fully extended to go clear, acted without fuss on the quick ground, and clearly has a future. It must be noted this was a weak heat, however.

In the novice chase, we had a winner, Watch My Back, which won twice previously on Gd/firm going.....

Experienced race readers have exposed this blatent lie as regards an advanced going report.....
No one with a pair of functioning eyes could say that ground was as described.....

"Chase course - GOOD, Good to soft in places; GoingStick 6.3 . (A cold start with patchy ground frost; dry and fine with lengthy spells of sunshine; moderate north-westerly winds"

Tellwright's going descriptions, if replicated nationwide would render the formbook WORTHLESS........

It is not in Betfair's interests to take the same line as the bookmakers (to whom misleading going forcasts are manna from heaven)
Betfair want people BACKING as well as laying WITH CONFIDENCE (confidence breeds bigger bets/lays = more commish')

Unlike the PUNTERS in this SPORT, Betfair HAS A VOICE.
It's very good all the stuff you've done lately for your customers etc, making TIMEFORM available, previews on Betfair fm etc, but you can now do something for the genuine benefit of punters NATIONWIDE & gain some points the conventional bookmakers cannot possibly score back off you.

PLEASE BE SEEN to be doing something about this, so it WILL make the levy board aware of the chronic dis-satisfaction amongst punters. This is NOT something that can be achieved behind closed doors....The only way this will change & increase punters confidence will be if they SEE someone acting in THEIR interests.

We have a flat season pending where the regular over watering of courses will lead to a plethora of complaints from punters, we all know that.....
PUNTERS on the whole, wouldn't mind watering to produce safe ground, but when clerks regularly MISLEAD them in order to appear competent at their jobs (see clerkwatch 2009 on your own antepost forum) people have no option other than to reduce their stakes, or stop betting.......This is no good to me personally, & I suspect it aint much good to BETFAIR?
Report guinness2dear March 22, 2009 11:50 AM GMT
John... I posted on a fred yesterday (no one seemed interested) that was calling for BF to move their chase to Aintree.. This would be as good a start as any...
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 12:00 PM GMT
The topic seems to have generated some interest over there this morning Guiness, maybe your thread was hard to catch during racing, I know I would have been interested myself.
Report guinness2dear March 22, 2009 12:06 PM GMT
Was'nt my fred mucker, i posted on it....

But that would be a start from BF dont you think ?
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 12:06 PM GMT
That said, the current scores from next door (responses) would indicate that there are more pressing matters on the horse-racing forum......

RIP Jade Goody 86 - 70 Jonjo's going thread.

Might all be a waste of time eh?
Report amaru March 22, 2009 12:06 PM GMT
Thats sounds like an excellent idea to me Guinness re: moving the Betfair Chase to Aintree. Would be a much fairer test for staying chasers there rather than the scalextric track at Haydock.
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 12:07 PM GMT
Amaru, please take a look at the other thread if you have time today. All input greatly appreciated
Report amaru March 22, 2009 12:08 PM GMT
Which thread Jonjo? Yours on the Horseracing forum?
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 12:10 PM GMT
Yes mate.
Would appreciate your thoughts (& anyone elses on here)
Report amaru March 22, 2009 12:11 PM GMT
No worries mate, will have a good read of it shortly and post anything I think worthy of adding.
Report guinness2dear March 22, 2009 12:15 PM GMT
You're one of the few on here who would initiate a response from me mucker, and no, it's not a waste of time, it's about time BF got involved on their layer's behalf. I, for one will bump your fred....
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 12:20 PM GMT
Much appreciated Guiness, if you keep going back to threads you start, you end up looking like an egomaniac imo....
Report Figgis March 22, 2009 1:21 PM GMT
Jonjo, I think the idea of Timeform/Betfair giving a description of the going based on race times after a race or 2 is a good one but people would have to be aware that this can also be misleading.

I use times myself to determine the state of the ground but due to the affects of wind and rail movement (both reported but more often unreported) it is not always possible until the entire card has been run. Snap conclusions based on just a few races can often be wrong, as I demonstrated myself with the Lingfield card yesterday, with turf courses being even more problematic. However, in spite of these difficulties, I still feel that race times are a better way of determining the going than any other methods I've seen.

As for accurately assessing the going before racing gets underway, I think there is no easy solution but it would be better if it was done independently, at least then everybody would be satisfied that descriptions that turned out to be wrong would be nothing more than genuine mistakes.
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 2:32 PM GMT
That's more or less what I was advocating on the other thread Fig'
Timeform/Betfair getting their heads together & providing a SERVICE to horse racing in general, (not just their customers, though the option would be available for everyone who uses it to become customers)
This service would comprise 'advanced' going forcasts (teams visiting tracks etc) with daily going updates regarding rail movements etc...
They could set up a tiered site where you get as much info as you want to pay for (free stuff would be the going/rail movements & racecards) right through to the full timeform service, all paid for via a click of the mouse from your betfair account......This would be easier than buying the Post & more up to date :-)
Report empty March 22, 2009 2:38 PM GMT
Contact the Pacman c/o Timeform regarding your suggestion Jonjo
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 2:44 PM GMT
T'was done early doors Empty.
Report empty March 22, 2009 2:46 PM GMT

The ball is rollin
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 2:54 PM GMT
I'll update progress (or lack of) on here Empty......

No point keep bringing the old thread back, although I might cut & paste a section of it for on this thread?
Report turnip turns March 22, 2009 2:56 PM GMT
Clerkwatch 2009,is there going to be one,iyo.
Report jonjo March 22, 2009 2:57 PM GMT
Yes, this can kick it off......
Report Rollo Tomasi March 23, 2009 1:07 PM GMT
Racing Post p8 today

Matt Williams says when it comes to NH clerks and watering the key word is "TRUST".
Report jonjo March 24, 2009 5:33 PM GMT
And the preceding two words are 'lack' & 'of' ?
Report Outpost July 8, 2009 7:05 PM BST
clerkwatch 2008 for you zilzal1
Report dyno-layer July 14, 2009 3:28 PM BST
Report ben10 May 3, 2010 11:14 PM BST
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