Steinbeck - 2000 Guineas

Licking his wounds, then sorting out a few late "covers" to rescue his book.

I think this Coolmore cynicism has gone a bit far on here. We all know they like to big up their sires, but from memory a large proportion of the horses they have talked about in glowing terms in the past have made justified it. Obviously, there will be one or two that won't make it down the years, but that's always the case with horses. To say that Steinbeck is just an average joe that's being used as a sounding board for a second-season sire is ludicrous imo. He is already virtually tied on form lines with a G2 winner on only his second start (following months out of action) and his close relative Meezaan looks all class, so could it just be he is an above-average colt with loads of ability from a family quickly on the up? Also, Footsteps was a colt with plenty of natural ability and so it was always going to be that he came up with something decent in his first crop. If he turns up at The Curragh, he'll have a serious rival in Elusive Pimpernel to handle and one or two others and we'll be able to judge him better then (although I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt as its only his third run and first start of the season). People might like to bash Ballydoyle, but for me they are all about history and legacy and Steinbeck is just one of those that makes the narrative of the flat season all the more interesting. Maybe its the nature of this forum that people need to be proved right or wrong about horses and rub other people's noses in it, but we all have opinions and that's what it's about, isn't it? The fact this is still going suggests Steinbeck is one of the more interesting 3yos around..

Does it really?

Prima Donna, it is being set up for St Nick now ... another Dewhurst danger removed today in Beethoven with the tell tale 'slight training setback' bullsh1t that affected Steinbeck. Think the Dewhurst form will hold up eventually but not if it gets in the way of St Nick from his own stable. Canford Cliffs was disappointing imo it doesnt look like he will be good enough over a mile though think he could get a third or fourth in what is looking a poor quality Guineas.


The Ballydoyle handler told his website, www.aidanobrien.ie: "Beethoven has met with a slight training setback and therefore is going to have an easy week this week.

"Unfortunately this is going to rule him out of the StanJames.com English 2000 Guineas and he will now be aimed at the French 2000 Guineas instead."

Zilzal .. been having a break from this after Chelts spent too much time on here.

Dewhurst form will still be represented by Xtension and Fencing Master.

...unless Fencing Master meets with a bad scope....

Xtension certainly didnt have the scope of Steinbeck for me and Fencing Master, well, he may be another Ballydoyle horse who there will be a 'bit left to work on' at this stage. Ballydoyle are removing any traces of the Dewhurst from this race my guess is Fencing Master is just running as a prep for other things.

Kirk,I think that is a very fair assessment of the race,it is very much being set up for SNA as they will go for the TC if he wins the 1st two legs,btw Fencing Master is going to be the pacemaker,CC ran too fast imo the other day,if he does handle it without veering left,yes I too could see him being placed,I agree with you its not looking like the most outstanding field,good luck kirk with your choices.

Fencing Master to make the running? How? He takes an age to pick up on last year's evidence..

^ He doesn't need to 'pick up' just run fast from the beginning.
I don't think he will go off like a sprinter from the start, he will just ensure there is strong pace and move aside if SNA is coming through.

kirk st. moritz 20 Apr 17:30
Prima Donna, it is being set up for St Nick now ... another Dewhurst danger removed today in Beethoven with the tell tale 'slight training setback' bullsh1t that affected Steinbeck.

Beethoven's antepost price for the Guineas suggested that he was never going to run at Newmarket. 50/1 available for a Dewhurst winner? Someone knew something...

A-T,Look back to page 13 of this thread read Slick'n'Smooth's comments you will then see that was the plan from a while ago.

Yes that was real insight. Now wonder we're so cynical about Coolmore's press statements about training "setbacks"!

mmmm ... gutted they left Steinbeck out for the slow ground no speed horse St Nicholas Abbey. Punters beware as these lot try to surpass Sea The Stars for stud reasons.

..with the wrong animals... Montjeu in a Guines fk sake.

Karma :-)

Total joke their best miler in all likelihood wasnt in the race.

Prima Donna ... stick to breeding mate ;)

Exactly how rich did you get backing Steinbeck for the Guineas KSM?

At least Zaynar managed to sneak a place in the Champuion Hurdle ;)

For someone whose max bet is to win 800 quid on Cheltenham going each year you have a lot to say without having the balls to back it up. Your opinion is totally meaningless on here as you are not a player.

AOB said afterwards that SNA was their fastest horse over a mile so they tried him in the Guineas rather than a Derby trial. If Steinbeck was faster they would have run him today.

Wrong ... read this thread ... it is stud reasons he didnt run.

We'll know more after the Curragh.

At least my bet on the going came in :)

Still I'm sure Ocean Finance will top up your betting bank back to your £20 limit Kirk. Though you can keep telling us all you have thousands on as Im sure there will be someone who believes you :0

To be fair Kirk was spot on about SNA, he wasn't racing comfortably for most of the way

The Classics are now a bigger minefield than ever as the stable with the best record, Ballydoyle, chase Sea The Stars mantle with middle distance horses in the Guineas at the expense of their better milers. Sh1t prices for them as well. Bookies have shortened the 2nd tier of animals in the market up from 16s to 12s now also ....

I think they could have rushed Steinbeck for the race but chose not to, probably sensible long term if he will be as good as we hope.

Nowt wrong with Steinbeck .. slight setback my @rse.

They dont give 2 hoots about punters and this SNA plan to try and surpass Sea The Stars failed miserably, trying to get a Monteu to win a Guineas on fastish ground over a trip too short for stud reasons ... awful awful rubbish spouted by O'Brien now .. too bad he cant admit he was desperate to win today but Oxx is his and his owners master still ... humiliating for them really humiliating.

Great shame Beethoven had a setback he probably would have won today ;)

Yes probably a similar setback to Steinbeck ... shame really as the Dewhurst p1ssed on the Racing Post Trophy in todays race yet the 2 best Dewhurst horses were missing, coincidentally both from Ballydoyle.

sorry i meant 'setback'

I think the key is not to get sucked into putting too much on anti post wait for the day , the winner Makfi was 33-1 in the morning of the race and drifted out to 89-1. Most of the others apart from the 1st two in the betting were available at double figure odds, so no need to back anti post.

Don't think Ballydoyle have a horse that would have won today. Winner was different class from the Dewhurst horses.

SNA was disappointing no doubt. All the Ballydoyle horses looked like they needed it (they did in 2009 and 2008 too) and they will all come forward big time. The Guineas is a race that may come too early for them these days, but SNA was still expected to win so it may be best to be sceptical about him from now on. His relatives Ballingarry & Aristotle did not fulfil 2yo potential and maybe he'll be the same. Fencing Master looked big beforehand and will get the Derby trip on pedigree, plus these Oratorios could improve as they go like he did. I thought he put in a better run than SNA and could end up their number one for Epsom if he works well beforehand.

Chuck some blinkers on Fencing Master: 1m2f, small field, bang out in front imo.

is it me or o brien 3 yrs old crop is not exepcional

Based on what? You haven't seen this fella run yet, nor Cape Blanco and Jan Vermeer.

the very poor weather in the early part of 2010 has been rolled out as a reason why the Coolmore / O'brien team arnt flying yet.

When you look at how Mastercraftsman and Rip van Winkle ran last year and what they went on to do, it's far too early to dismiss them. Wait until after the Irish Guineas/Derby/St James's Palace and then judge the crop. My bet is they are starting to dominate again by July (particularly as there are potentially top-class ones like Cape Blanco, Steinbeck and Jan Vermeer waiting in the wings)..

I'd still bet they have more Group 1 3.y.o winners than anyone else this year.

Well the form of the low drawn Dewhurst horses keeps getting franked by the day.
4 subsequent G3 winners plus a 2nd in the GNS.

kirk st. moritz, O'Brien has confirmed that JanVermeer remains in the Derby picture as does fencing master who could first contest the Irish 2000gns,while Steinbeck has 'more to do'if he is to start off his campaign in the same race a week on Sat'............is he really good enough?or is he pure hype? results speak volumes.Have a look at page2 of todays RP.
FRAGILE NOT SOUND.

Well you were wrong about St Nick over a mile maybe you will be right about Steinbeck being hyped also over a mile (though the Dewhurst form is standing up way better than the Racing Post Trophy). O'Brien is making excuses again off the back of him apparently working brilliantly only a week ago. Odds are he is full of sh1t.

yes Kirk I would agree on that one (about O'Brien). So far he is having a very quiet season.

Lads only 2-1 Steinbeck, don't seem keen on Fencing Master but he interests me. He ran a blinder in the Dewhurst and the Guineas and looked for all the world as if he would need the run there. I'm thinking he'll also go for the Derby after Saturday like his dad did and his current odds for Epsom on here are ludicrous if that's the plan. I reckon Steinbeck will need the run and is being geared more towards the St Jamess Palace and I wouldn't rule out Fencing Master taking a step up and winning with Jan Vermeer close up and booking his Derby place.

Clear now never would have won the Guineas

Not clear at all imo. Was given an easy ride today to finish 4th. Canford Cliffs has come on a ton from the Guineas. He was my idea of the Guineas winner on this thread if he stayed and in Steinbecks absence. Imo Steinbeck travelled easy today but blew up at the close.

It goes to show how often some take time to come to themselves ... I would take Canford to turn over Makti at this stage. Also Steinbeck really impressed me there and without a 'setback' who knows he certainly cruised for much of todays race ran an excellent race.

kirk st. moritz Joined: 04 Feb 07
Replies: 524 11 Feb 10 22:00   


Consider a scenario where R Hughes is right and Canford stays a mile. If SNA did not have the pace against the top milers he will be meeeting for the first time then he is looking for a Derby win where he is not guaranteed to get the trip. In the meantime Canford Cliffs wins the English Guineas and is odds on for the Irish Guineas, beats Steinbeck and Ballydoyle are looking for a Derby win with a horse out of the Guineas who may not stay as well as others, say Workforce and the end result is no Ballydoyle Classic winners.

I think they will want a guaranteed miler to be in the Guineas there on his own merits as well as SNA as just having one representative with a realistic chance of winning out of a stable so large and coming away with a doubtful Derby stayer and the 2nd fav for the Irish Guineas would not be worth the risk.

kirk st. moritz Joined: 04 Feb 07
Replies: 524 11 Feb 10 21:52   


If SNA fails to perform on the day or is not good enough they would be foolish to leave an English Classic at Canford Cliffs mercy.

kirk st. moritz Joined: 04 Feb 07
Replies: 524 11 Feb 10 21:51   


Why would Steinbeck not run at HQ? It is normal for the stable to run their best milers in both Guineas.

Prima Donna Joined: 29 Apr 09
Replies: 1393 11 Feb 10 21:20   


Kirk,Your silence is deafening,all this about Steinbeck you cant see the wood for the trees!Still there's always Canford Cliffs!

Steinbeck has run a very similar race 1st up as rvw and mastercraftsman did last yr. I expect him to be in the shake up in the st james and other top grp1s throughout summer. but lets not take anything away from cc. lived up to the hype and more today.

RVW and Mastercraftsman were Group 1 winners at 2. Steinbeck has never even been placed in a top class race.

Apart from CC the runners in today's Irish Guineas are moderate. Hannon's horse slaughtered them with breaking sweat.

Kirk,Yes you were right about CC,I was at the Curragh today,and after speaking to Hannon JR,I felt that he was in with a very good chance,he is imo a improving horse,better than I thought he would be.
As for Steinbeck as you know i've never thought much of him and will remain unchanged in my view remember what I said about him being a classic Ballydoyle hype horse to lay,I felt that at no time in the race was he ever going well JM got to work him from way out with no real response,I was with his connections before the race they were not confident,but hopeful of a good run,imo he got 4th because he was going past beaten horses at one pace.Ballydoyle still not firing them in yet.
I would say looking to the season SNA holds more promise than Steinbeck ever will,well thats my take on it anyway.Hope you backed him (CC) that is.

All it is proving is how trainers are very poor at getting their horses to peak for the English Guineas. You must have watched a different race to me with Steinbeck, unlike the Dewhurst, the best Guineas trial, where he led early and faded late today he was dropped out the back as if a none trier and travelled easy nonetheless then coming late but too late AND blew up as you would expect. Ran a brilliant race didnt have the benefit of a Greenham and Guineas under his belt like Canford who remember was found wanting in both of those.

Showing O'Brien to be someone who makes the wrong decisions and gets them fully wound up on the course.

Oh and by the way, there is little doubt Steinbeck IS there best miler after today.

and should have been in the Guineas against an off-peak Canford and co. instead of a Montjeu.

their*

...and he missed 4 weeks work in March so they couldn't run him.

Maybe best of a bad bunch of Ballydoyle 3 year olds. 4th now in the Dewhurst and Irish Guineas - I'd say that'a bout his level. Not to say he won't win a nice race this year - but only if it's weakly contested i.e no CC, Paco Boy, Mafki etc.

So the Greenham was about Canford Cliffs level using the same logic ffs?

Cc was an excellent winner of the Coventry Stakes. Returned to form today. What racecourse form is Steinbeck's lofty reputation based on?

You need to give up antepost if that is how you see things.

Come October we'll probably still be reading about Steinbeck's latest "eyecatching" 4th place.

The horse wasnt ridden to win the race today tbh surprised he got 4th.

Anyway good luck following Steinbeck this year kirk.

I didnt back him today as I didnt think he would be ready and expected him to blow up ... nothing surprised me about the race.

Good luck with your antepost logic this season.

Prima Donna .. I took St Nick recenlty for the Derby there doesnt look a lot in opposition this season over a trip he is more likely to excel at on going he will prefer and even APOB can get him ready by June. You must fancy him to go on for a Derby and then Arc victory?

Same people slating Steinbeck here are the same ones who were slating RIP last year imo.  He was all hype, and kept having problems, and he didnt turn out too bad...
Todays run was clearly nothing more than a racecourse gallop.

Kirk,I do like SNA for the Derby (Epsom) but TBH he does need to improve from NMKT,but I think he will, I agree with you about the trip and the opposition, AP O'Brien they do seem slow to come to hand so far,I doubt Steinbeck will really be any good,regardless of what some think,he will have to improve a hell of a lot to win at top level imo,it will be hard as I keep saying not a sound horse,but we will see,good luck with your bets Kirk for Epsom.BTW what do you think of Henry Cecil's colt Bullet Train?

I am thinking of taking him in my team .. real dark horse and as a big fan of Timepiece who was going well in gallops with him. Massive fan of HRAC and see him as the biggest danger to SNA.

Kirk,Like you I reckon B.Train will be a massive danger to SNA Henry's horses are running well .........unlike the O'Brien ones.I like him a lot.

I like Bullet Train - real galloper who doesn't mind being in front - the type Cecil does so well with (Old Vic, Slip Anchor, Reference Point). Won his trial well too. If SNA doesn't win it then none of O'Brien's will.

I reckon B.Train is the best Derby trial colt we have seen so far,one thing you need at Epsom is a SOUND horse who stay's the trip,SNA may not have it so easy in a week or so.Im sure Push would agree with a few points here.

St James Palace is going to be a cracker ... lets hope all 3 best milers are ready on the day. Steinbeck had his Greenham today lets hope he doesnt also need a further race like Canford to get into top flight.

“I’m delighted with the performance [of Steinbeck] after that layoff. He finished his race very well and was having a good blow after the race. The St James’s Palace is a likely next step.”

The prospect of all 3 meeting in the St.James Palace is one Id love to see,who knows which one will win,if Steinbeck is as you think Kirk Ballydoyles best miler then imo he will again get a sound beating and wont stand much chance of bagging a GR1 mile race this year.One point to think about is now its late in the breeding season,all mares booked to Footstepsinthesand this year have been covered and contracts signed,the stallion is on his own now so S'beck doesn't need to kept as a talking horse if he is just average (he sure looks it)then they have lost nothing but have filled his book this year off the promise of the prospect of S'beck.For Ballydoyle/Coolmore Hype=Money Hype a stallion=more mares=more money,thats how they work,sportsmen I think not,businessmen they are!

Steinbeck is definitely well above average already with such few runs and so many setbacks to come out the best horse from the Dewhurst, the best milers 2yo trial (though the French race is vying for that). With a smooth preparation to his races and/or without St Nick around he could easily be the best miler in training by now. If you couldnt see the great promise in his Dewhurst and Irish Guineas runs you are best looking again. In fact Canford cut across him yesterday taking his ground though both going easy at the time. Canford may confirm form at Ascot but dont count on it for sure as we know from France onwards he may not be totally consistent and we also know Steinbeck has had chronic preparations hindering his progress which may now become smoother. Really impressed with how he travelled more than how he finished as you would expect him to blow up and be much better on that score next time. See how Murtagh was restraining him to drop out the back when he would have liked to have gone on, he can be dropped in or blitz it so you have a very versatile horse in terms of how he can be ridden also.

Steinbeck was slaughtered yesterday, sometimes in life you've got to hold you hands and admit being wrong otherwise it can end costing you(and dearly).

Thanks for that^

Didn't want to say much yesterday because didn't want to detract from the excellent performance of Canford Cliffs but for me Steinbeck ran a good race. The betting suggested that he wasn't going to be winning yesterday and given he's missed work and been known to have had a problem it made sense that he wasn't going to be fully fit first time up (just like O'Brien's others). As I've said on here before he's a galloper who wants to be racing just off a lead. Murtagh held him up behind Canford (proven turn of foot horse) which given we know Steinbeck doesn't have a turn of foot was never going to suit. Furthermore at no point did Murtagh really go for him, I think he hit him once and he travelled equally well behind Canford until the race fitness kicked in around 2f out. Next time up (at Royal Ascot if he stays sound) you'll see him prominent in behind a pacemaker and you'll see what he's really capable of. Suits me that people can't spot that though, just makes a better price on him.

Kirk,well we are never going to share the same view with Steinbeck,Slick spent more time with connections than me yesterday,I think from what was said J.Murtagh thought he was going to get a bit more from S'beck but never thought he would win.One colt that you could take from the race is Viscount Nelson he ran better here than over in NMKT and being by G.Causeway should improve I don't know but if he goes to Ascot I could see him running a good race.
I do agree with you that CC may not be that consistent,he may have peaked yesterday only time will tell.One thing stands out a mile is that Ballydoyle are not firing yet there does come a time when all the promise and hype can look a bit thin after a beating (SNA included)next run will confirm this.

i am pretty sure Steinbeck will improve a lot for that run, but he doesn't half need to. he was beaten about 12 lbs yesterday by Canford Cliffs. Its conceivable that he can improve that much by Ascot but the chances are against it.

Plus CC won with plenty in hand. But it's form does seem a bit in and out. Probably due a disappointment next.

ben10 you read this horse exactly as I do. There is no way he was ridden to win imo. He is definitely best just off a lead as you say and lost a lot of energy being restrained at the back when he could have been a couple up on Canford in the early stages without any more effort than the restraining took out of him. They gave him very much an intro race yesterday and he still got 4th.

Canford is a hybrid sprinter so asking anything to take him for turn of foot now he is fully race fit is asking a lot though Steinbeck himself does have a decent turn of foot himself. Canford was impressive and it is touch and go I probably wont have a bet in the St James Palace as I respect all 3 greatly.

ben10 Joined: 06 Sep 07
Replies: 1451 23 May 10 08:10   


Thanks for that^

Didn't want to say much yesterday because didn't want to detract from the excellent performance of Canford Cliffs but for me Steinbeck ran a good race. The betting suggested that he wasn't going to be winning yesterday and given he's missed work and been known to have had a problem it made sense that he wasn't going to be fully fit first time up (just like O'Brien's others). As I've said on here before he's a galloper who wants to be racing just off a lead. Murtagh held him up behind Canford (proven turn of foot horse) which given we know Steinbeck doesn't have a turn of foot was never going to suit. Furthermore at no point did Murtagh really go for him, I think he hit him once and he travelled equally well behind Canford until the race fitness kicked in around 2f out. Next time up (at Royal Ascot if he stays sound) you'll see him prominent in behind a pacemaker and you'll see what he's really capable of. Suits me that people can't spot that though, just makes a better price on him

What it also shows is that trainers are either intentionally or not very poor at getting their best horses ready for the English Guineas and with the pathetic watering bias is very much a second rate antepost race now. The Ballydoyle Montjeu mile Classic factor also shatters this race for future interest until it happens and true milers are given their chance in the race once more.

ben10     23 May 10 08:10 
Thanks for that^

Didn't want to say much yesterday because didn't want to detract from the excellent performance of Canford Cliffs but for me Steinbeck ran a good race. The betting suggested that he wasn't going to be winning yesterday and given he's missed work and been known to have had a problem it made sense that he wasn't going to be fully fit first time up (just like O'Brien's others). As I've said on here before he's a galloper who wants to be racing just off a lead. Murtagh held him up behind Canford (proven turn of foot horse) which given we know Steinbeck doesn't have a turn of foot was never going to suit. Furthermore at no point did Murtagh really go for him, I think he hit him once and he travelled equally well behind Canford until the race fitness kicked in around 2f out. Next time up (at Royal Ascot if he stays sound) you'll see him prominent in behind a pacemaker and you'll see what he's really capable of. Suits me that people can't spot that though, just makes a better price on him.

Is this deja vu from the Dewhurst?same clap trap wheeled out then,as for the St.James Palace is a case of IF they can manipulate the race to suit him and IF they can get the work into him and IF he stays sound then he MIGHT win?

As with everything it depends on how they bet on the race, im a great CC fan and backed him and DT at newmarket, but imo he could go off a silly price at RA and Hannons can throw in the absolute stinker at times.

Having said that, Hannons Two year olds dont usually have only Two races as a juvenile

well summed up ben i concur with your views about steinbeck.

I thought steinbeck ran a stormer & travelled stronbgly thro the race.
His 4th in the Dewhurst on 2nd outing was out the top draw its clear the stands side wasnt the place to be that day.
Other horses that he beat ran low /close to the rail in the Dewhurst have subsequently taken 2nd in all 3 Guineas plus a 4th in the French Guineas via 3 different horses.
Fame & Glory a well beaten fav in the champion stks also ran close to the rail that day.

Didn't he do well,got his ground set his own pace still couldn't win.........a load of RUBBISH who to date has only won a tiny little maiden 4th in a poor Dewhurst,4th in the Irish GNS 8th in St.James's Palace.

HYPE TALKING HORSE ONLY!

One other point Kirk you have said many times that the RPT was full of slow cr@p animals,take a close look the Dewhurst winner a 50/1 going out 80s Fencing Master running in listed races and not winning the great S'beck stuffed everytime he sets foot on a racecourse,where are the fast top class milers that were all in the Dewhurst?

amazing that 24 pages of analysis has been devoted to such a slow boat!

Steinbeck missed the Guineas through injury to a degree comfirming insider Prima Donna's claims he was very fragile and time has shown he was correct.

Who would have thought those proclaiming St Nick as the second coming over a mile on here might have demonstrated to them also later that he wasn't good enough to win the Triumph Hurdle (still there's always the July Cup)

Kirk[smiley:crazy]

St Nick may have needed the run of course, with the benefit of that he could actually come 2nd in the Triumph Hurdle behind Zarkandar imo.

Steinbeck back in third eric!!!

Injuries affected his development I agree with you on that. St Nick however was just flattered by his RPT run against middle distance types (as mentioned around 15 months ago).

Yes eric time has shown in a way both of those points are valid.I agree with you on Frankle btw!

As mentioned by whom Eric?

[smiley:crazy]

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2596 23 Jul 10 11:54
Think ben10 might have been the only contributor on the thread that caused kirk's demise. Kirk should have kissed ass kept stum like Post reporters on issues and he would keep everyone happy.

He did go strongly against St Nick on a stupidly long thread on here and was strong on Steinbeck in singles and doubles then Canford Cliffs in a big treble with Big Bucks 3s, Kauto 7/4. Steinbeck won't be any good over trips further than a mile IMO though I believe he had/has potential turns out his injuries may have affected his career and in that respect prima Donna was right.

As for Kirk wouldn't be surprised if he is on here claiming he won k's on Nadal at Wimbledon or something else made up.

Thank God you didn't have "four figures" on SNA for the Guineas, Eric, like poor old Kirk did.

Trailed home last in the Hong Kong Derby on his last start