Timepiece

very interesting, was that on todays racing post website?? cant find the article thats all

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/cecil-hope-timepiece-cut-for-cla...

thanx for that

would be a good oaks trial running in guineas staying on from 2f out into 3rd/4th

I'll be surprised if she runs in the Guineas. Having backed her for the Oaks, I'm obviously hoping she wins the Feilden Stakes, but I think she'd have to win it really impressively for Khalid Abdullah to consider running her in the Guineas. It will also depend, to some extent, on how Special Duty is shaping up at home, and on how Principal Role performs in the Nell Gwyn. I definitely wouldn't back her for the Guineas at this stage.

What do you think about the fielden as a starting point for the oaks anyway Jamesp? Is it just experience before a crack at the musidora - that would be my guess.

It leaves plenty of time to get another run into her before the Oaks - either the Guineas or, more likely, the Musidora or the Lingfield Oaks Trial.

push she is flying at home , i think her price will collapse further after the fielden.

i was hoping she would go for the lingfield trial obviously a little similar to epsom, and good experience for her, but hey,,,henry knows best, think il have a small ew interest for the guineas,,,just in case

Thanks RUSSJR, just wondering , expect not many fillies run in the Feilen stakes,have any won the race ?

im not sure push, i think Cecil has had the favourite in the same race the past 2 years (both beaten) . I think he has so many decent 3yo fillies that he trying to keep them apart.

Agree with that Russ. It does seem Henry has several potential top class 3yo fillies

Let's hope that's proved correct.

And then you have Bullet Train to find a race for, Conditions event at newbury previously won by light shift, i think a lot of thought has gone into these entries and lets hope it pays off.

Any news on Aviate? She's the one I thought might be aimed at the Guineas, as she has a miler's pedigree.

Cecil on Aviate -RP Guide to Flat 2010


''Among the fillies,Aviate has done very well.
She won her only start,at Kempton in November,and did it well.
On breeding she shouldn't really get beyond a mile and a quarter.I've given her the 1,0000 Guineas entry and we'll see hoe she is progressing nearer the time of of the race''
End quote

Aviate goes for a trial in the Fred Darling. This is Henry's comment on her:

On the Oaks at 14s and 12s ... let the Master of Fillies do his stuff. Some great memoris from the past, loves the Musidora does Our Enry must be next all going well.

kirk, yes henr loved winning the muisidora, how many winners do you recall, all at sea, snow ride,fatah flare,diminuendo, can you name some more memory not so great did fairy footsteps run in it,

Reams of Verse

Ramruma unusually the Lingfield Oaks Trial ..... ouch had Snow Bride antepost though covered on Aliysa but got the race too late for punters.

Watching brief for me.

Also won the Lingfield trial with Midday and Lady Carla.

strongest the stable has been for a long time , im looking forward to kithonia and principale role aswell

Did she grow into a soft ground action through the winter or is it just me?! Shockin the amount of bumps she got, will beat that Rumoush if she shows up at Epsom.

Winner looks rather decent imo, but you can safely forgive Timepiece's run , I think.

Rumoush the better horse for sure, agree the Oaks trip may just give Timepiece the edge though.

Dissapointing today , had the fav in the race the past 2 years aswell. She will step up on that for sure.

Having backed her for the Oaks I wish I could share some of the enthusiasm some of you have shown. To me that was a very disappointing effort.

Dark , the plan is the oaks , she will be spot on come the day.

I have not backed her, just thought you could forgive the run.

I always thought the family, POT and Father Time, fell between 2 stalls in terms of trip.

Midday got beat on seasonal debut (Timepiece should have got 2nd like her) although that race was 10 days later at Epsom though, maybe they wanted to see if she was possibly a Guineas horse. Wonder who he'll send for that Epsom race though, got some good fillies this year, maybe he just has a better one. Kithonia or Principal Role maybe?

She seemed a long striding, big filly to me, will she be suited by Epsom?

The only reason 2day was disapointing was cause i was silly enough to back her! I have enough on her for the oaks to be gettin involved today and like russjr say's, the oaks is the long term plan, the fielden stks wasn't.

Not sure, but I reckon Aviate could head for the Guineas.

Twice Over was well beaten at this meeting last year, and went on to win the Champion Stakes.

interesting comments, i was a little dissapointed, but,, the oaks is the target, the extra distance, the evperience of today, hopefully the neccessary improxement will come through on oaks day.

Let's hope so Sariska Boy.

still fav in most places , was unlucky not to place and was clearly not knocked about. probably turn up now in the conditions race at epsom.

Thought the winner was different class both on and off the track - whether she get's the Oaks trip is another matter.

You have to say she was a bit disappointing even though she didn't get the best of runs. Rumoush looks a serious player as well. But it wasn't a disaster.

Should never have been Oaks fav. Well overrated.

Classic example of the value of work at home.

i haxe just watched the race a gain a few times, timepiece did haxe a few traffic problems today,, she was not duly pressed after this, hopefully the step up in trip will bring the neccessary improxement for the oaks, it will be interesting to hear henrys comments the next few days

I got the impression after the race that connections were surprised that she was not quite as straight as they thought they had got her at home. She had a very good blow when she came back into the unsaddling enclosure

Obviously the worry is she has been beating horses cruising at home but that they are not Rumoush's. Got no kind of run, Hills made sure of that he must have gone virtually sideways at one stage to keep her in.

Timepiece looks one-paced to me and I would be with Rumoush over her every day of the week, including up in trip.

Timepiece will not handle epsom full stop

she was the pick beforehand.Had plenty of room to pick up,but didnt and got tightened up as a result....

I'd forgotten,but Queally got a whip ban when she won her last start at 2.....Looked to me as though she hadn't forgotten

I thought Eddie rode her in the montrose, she will improve for the run , both kandahar run and on our way were beaten favs in the race, Its a long season and i expect her to turn the tables over further.

Henry was interviewed on RUK earlier and he said she's likely to go to Lingfield next where he expects to see ''a very different horse''. FYI.

all his horses will come on for the run , henry knows its a long year with a good one , timepiece wasnt given a hard time and niether was principale role , upped in trip both will show thier class ,

looking forward to kithonia aswell

I can't see her as an Oaks filly. Her half-sister Passage Of Time (by Dansili) was beaten 21 lengths at Epsom. Timepiece is by the miler Zamindar. I know some milers sire Epsom winners (Sir Percy) but I feel Timepiece's pedigree is not for 12f.

kincsem, I beg to differ. Timepiece should stay 12f OK. Henry Cecil knows this family very well, having trained the dam Clepsydra (12f winner by Sadler's Wells) and grand-dam Quandary (9-10f winner, stayed 10f really well but was never tried over further). Henry also trained Timepiece's siblings Father Time, Passage Of Time, Timetable and Gems Of Araby.

Father Time (by Dansili) stayed 12f really well (impressive winner of King Edward VII Stakes) but didn't last home over an extended 14f in the Leger. Passage Of Time (also by Dansili) won a Group 1 over 10f at two and her two best subsequent performances were over 11-12f (when placed in both the Breeders Cup Filly & Mare Turf and the Prix Vermeille). Timetable (by Observatory) won comfortably over 10f on his final career start (his one and only attempt at the trip), shaping as though he would have stayed further. Gems Of Araby (by Zafonic) was a close runner-up in a 10f maiden on her second start (despite taking a keen hold and running green) but patently failed to progress. Sandglass (also by Zafonic) was an impressive winner of a 10f maiden, looking like a filly that would certainly stay further, but she finished lame on her only attempt at 12f in the Galtres Stakes subsequently.

All five of Timepiece's siblings listed above were sired by milers and either stayed 12f or shaped as though they would have done so if their careers had not been cut short or if they had not failed to progress. Father Time and Passage Of Time certainly stayed 12f. Timetable and Gems Of Araby stayed 10f and would probably have stayed further but were never given the chance to prove it. Sandglass got 10f really well and would almost certainly have stayed further.

Dansili has sired a number of classy 12f horses, notably Arc winner Rail Link and Grand Prix de Paris winner Zambezi Sun; his progeny stats indicate that he does very well with his middle distance runners (14% winners to runners over 10-11f and 15% winners to runners over 12-13f). Zafonic sired a number of 12f winners, such as Munsef and Zarfoot, but his middle distance progeny stats are not quite so impressive (11% winners to runners over 10-11f and 11% winners to runners over 12-13f). Timepiece's sire Zamindar, a full brother to Zafonic, has already sired the unbeaten Arc winner Zarkava as well as a number of other middle distance horses such as Group 2 12f winner Crossharbour; his progeny stats are 7% winners to runners over 10-11f, 11% winners to runners over 12-13f (the same as Zafonic) and, amazingly, 20% winners to runners over 14f+ (though to be fair the latter sample is very small!). I'm confident that Zamindar will continue to sire his share of top-class 12f performers and I'm very hopeful that Timepiece will fall into that category. Her next run (almost certainly in an Oaks trial such as the Musidora) will tell us more.

jamesp

Another very sound and reasoned post from yourself.

I would have two concerns about Timepiece at this stage of her career. Firstly, she looks to have a nice cruising speed but I have yet to see a turn of foot from her and I think this will leave her vulnerable to a top class filly, even as she steps up in trip.

Secondly, and perhaps more worringly, visually I am not impressed by her action and she looks to be climbing on the ground if the last two runs at Newmarket are anything to go by. I would be concerned how she would handle Epsom as a result.

Her next run will be interesting, I see Henry Cecil has suggested the Lingfield Oaks Trial is likely to be her next run (on ATR website) and I think this is a good move as it will give them a chance to see if she handles the downhill bend there. It also means they are likely to avoid Rumoush who I think is the more promising filly at this stage.

James,

I am open minded as to whether Timepiece will stay or not, but in the cases of her two high profile siblings:
Passage Of Time, never won at 12f, her two best runs at the trip were at Monmouth which is a typically tight US circuit and the first line of the Racing Post's analysis of that race says:"This looked like an ordinary renewal of the Filly & Mare Turf and the gallop was noticeably steady for much of the way". And in France, where they notoriously go a stop start gallop and the races often have sprint finishes.
Father Time, did win at Ascot, but I believe it was Nick Mordin who came up with the theory that this horse was only able to show his best form with a short run in (such as Ascot), and that he wasn't suited to galloping tracks with long home straights.

Irrespective of her stamina and knee action she just dosen't look good enough to me!!

If she hadn't been trauied by H.Cecil she would never have been trading under 16/1 imo.

*trained

Far more relevant than jamesp's analysis, is that she was easily the most forward in the paddock on Wed.
HC, legend that he is, is going to perform a miracle of feeding the 5000 proportions to get her to win The Oaks.

Not least because she looked like she didn't want to know.

So wrong! she was in need of the run . Different story next time.

russjr correct, expect big improvement next run, over a longer distance, i just keep wondering some of the people that post on here will not have trained many classic winners,, henry knows what hes doing, wait till lingfield,,

Good points by PFtrader and Leo Bovary.
She's definitely worth another chance, with that run behind her. I will reserve judgement about her suitability for Epsom until after her next race. I have backed her heavily (i.e. to win a five-figure sum) at 20/1 for the Oaks but have laid most of the stake off on here following that reappearance effort in the Feilden Stakes.

Guess work Sariska! If you look at Midday last year , henry wil tell you she was spot on Oaks day when she narroly lost out. Not when she won the Nassau or breeders cuo group 1. Oaks day is june the 4th and if she gest ther in one piece she will show her class.

I do agree that she should be given another chance and if her trainer is of that opinion I for one will reserve judgement until her next run. I have backed her and am a bit suprised that she was not pushed out a bit further as I think they genuinely felt should would go a bit better than she did - in my opinion she should now be about 14/1 - now is that really down to bookies liabilities or just their greed??? I didn't go weds so I cannot comment on what had been left to work on but I did go thurs and Elusive Pimpernel is certainly an impressive animal to look at and he will strip fitter next time.

As Henry always says " i did not train her to win the trial , i trained her for the Oaks ".

Lots of heads in the sand imo.

If she was working so well beforehand,why did she need the race so badly?

I was there and she was the pick of the paddock....HC said in Oct that we hadnt seen the best of her...

Morning glory imo

Notenough, you will have seen Timepiece come in after the race? Apparently she was really blowing and that was a surprise to all parties.

Also, this was a very unusual route even for Henry. I am not trying to make the case for or against Timepiece, but I do not recall any of Henrys previouls Oaks fillies taking this race en route. I think this filly has shown a lot at home and thoughts have come round to a potential crack at the, 1,000 Guineas. But they had to prove that she was a Guineas filly to KA and Teddy and have run her in a race and raced the filly to show her turn of foot and speed (that she does not have - she needs to be galloping and quickening off a strong pace), wiith the Guineas in mind, she might have also been worked differently at home (can someone tell me how different work is for a mile and a half horse compared to a miler or sprinters?).

I think she will be trained and run totally different at Lingfield (Midday style) and that will be the performance we will need to judge her Oaks ability on. Can someone also provide me a breakdown of how fillys that have run in the Lingfield Oaks trial have got on and future success? The fact that he still has her very much on target for this race says an awful lot to me.

The last two wiiners on the Lingfield trial have yielded a win and a place at Epsom. That is as much as I know so you could say in recent years it has been a very informative trial, ditto for the Musiadora.

Henry sent Lady Carla, and Ramruma there before Epsom victory.

neither Ramruma or Lady Carla ran in the feilden.

Passage of time's attitude was questioned ..same for this 1 imo