Classics 2016
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Sea The Stars was the horse of a generation.
Frankel's win today was nothing short of stunning - I wasn't around when Secreteriat won the Belmont or Shergar the Derby, and hadn't enough knowledge to appreciate Hawk Wing in the Lockinge or Arezi in the Breeders Cup Juvenile but that is the sort of performance that this one is deserving to be compared to. But Sea The Stars did it at 8f, at 10f, at 12f, in Ireland, in the UK, in France on many unique courses, Epsom, Longchamp, Newmarket, time after time. He never looked like losing and he had the best temperment to match his brilliant ability. So until Frankel repeats that performance and proves versatility and consistency, he's nothing more than a very good horse. |
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i must research this Sea The Stars.
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Well Viva some of who did see Secretariat and Shergar are still around so Sea the Stars is hardly a horse I would have on my mind as the horse of a generation. He was good he was consistent but fell short in one department.......he was about as exciting as watching paint dry.
When horses like Sea Buscuit, Secretariat, Nijinsky Sea Bird II and even the queen herself Zenyatta ran there was a buzz of excitement that surrounded them. You always new you could expect something out of the ordinary to happen but with Sea The Stars it never quite happened. Just a very very good horse around at the right time I'm afraid. |
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Sea the Stars Arc win was like 'watching paint dry',then? What rubbish. One freaky Classic win does make a horse of a generation. On the other hand, Secretariat and Sea the Stars were themselves freaks. Frankel may be -- but he aint yet.
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Don't forget the unbeaten and thrilling to watch Zarkava
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Frankel's win reminded me of Attraction's 2004(?) all the way 1000G win (in a time 1 second quicker than Frankel's).
Not meaning to demean Frankel but I don't think he has the class of Sea the Stars. |
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comparing bare times from different race days let alone years apart is meaningless ... you have to compare against every other race on the card which takes into account that days race conditions, going and wind etc ...
Sea The Stars was a high class colt whose best speed figure from me came in the Eclipse when posting 96 on my scale, at that time was way above any rating i'd given a horse and I was wary of it until he posted 94 in the York International, then 93 in the Irish Champion stakes. Then last year I gave Workforce 93 for his Derby win and later in the year Frankel was getting massive figures from me as a 2 yr old, 90 at Doncaster and 89 in the Dewhurst. Frankel in the guineas gets a 95 from me which on time figures (compared to every other race on the card) ran only 1 length per mile below Sea The Stars Eclipse. To me, Frankel is every bit as classy as Sea The Stars and has achieved a heck of a lot more at this time of their respective careers. |
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comparing sts and frankel is absolutely worthless at this stage, the bare form of the horses so far that frankel has beat is absolutely garbage! we dont even know if the 'good ones' like pathfork, casamento etc have trained on. he beat complete no hopers by 6L.
he will never and i cant stress this enough NEVER achieve the succession of races that sts did, he is far less versatile for a start as this season, he hasnt beaten one worthwhile (3yr old colt/filly) yet. as mentioned pathfork et al were good 2 yr olds, and that was not their form the other day and if u think many of the horses ran to form u may have brain damage! lets see what they achieve at the end of the season and then judge. 1.01 frankel won win the guineas derby and arc(i wont even mention the other 3 gp 1's ). looks like he wont even line up for the other 2, his trainer knows he wont win them, already making sts the horse of his generation. sts has claims as being the gretaest horse EVER, whether u think it or not, what he did has never been done in the history of the sport. and as far as sts being as exciting 'as watching paint dry', this person obviously doesnt appreciate TRULY great horses and is unable to actually quantify the enormity of sea the stars achievements. probably gets more excited by a 10L winne of a nottingham maiden than he does by watching truly great champions, the greatest the sport has ever known. u hear this b00locks 'what did sts beat'? go look up his fooking form and see that he beat practically every single winner of every other g1 held in europe that he didnt take part in either collaterally or directly and even down to the horses tailed of in his races such as steele tango have gone on to win group races, his form is some of the strongest there is, there are no holes. the only in his form is the fact that unfortunately he couldnt go back in time and beat nijinsky to prove he was the greatest. frankel is still yet to prove himself, he was brilliant on saturday and only a fool would say otherwise but the performance neesd to be put in to perspective in relation to the other runners. its no coincidence that many of the placed runners and the winner had a prep run and that seems to have helped their performance a great deal. i mean dubawi star? who was he before the guineas. lets see if he can go on to frank frankels form, lets seem him win a g1 then we maybe be able to appreciate how great/poor this guineas truly was. as for comparing sts with frankel NOW, pointless, like comparing dancing brave with the tatling. and if he doesnt go to the derby and win, thats it, its over with regard to debating which one is the horse of a generation, if hes so brilliant he needs to win the derby now, hes not even going to line up from the looks of due to his stamina doubts! horses of generations dont have stamina doubts so much so that their trainer doesnt even bother showing up! the comparisons are laughable at such an early stage. gimme a break! |
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ilikewavingatbuses... your are missing the point...big style i lost my interest in horse racing a decade ago. the sport has been in decline for years. go in any bookies and there is more business around those awful roulette machines. frankel is a star. easy to pick holes in him.i,m guessing your preference was john higgins over hurrican higgins? italian football over brasilian? gatting before botham? i for one will be paying to see frankel
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ilikewavingatbuses... your are missing the point...big style i lost my interest in horse racing a decade ago. the sport has been in decline for years. go in any bookies and there is more business around those awful roulette machines. frankel is a star. easy to pick holes in him.i,m guessing your preference was john higgins over hurrican higgins? italian football over brasilian? gatting before botham? i for one will be paying to see frankel
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no i see the point explo and i think the horse is an absolutele machine, sat was amazing but to call him a horse of a generation on the back of it when we had a horse 2 yrs ago that won both classics, the arc and 3 other gp1s , one a month, its never been done.
so if frankel is the horse of this generation, what does that say about sts achievements? frankel is certainly excitiing to watch i wilol five u thint but its premature imo. again a 999/1 shot was forth, it would be folly to take the race literally imo. he will put bums on seats tho. |
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I can't believe Rondetto.
STS wasn't exciting? What a tool. He excited me plenty, and i would think most people would agree he was a horse of a generation |
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Generation X maybe!! You just leave school or is it next summer?
I did enjoy the Arc the only time I backed him but look back 12 months and watch Zarkava and how she won in comparison. Sea the Stars flat to the boards and Zarkava hands and heels. She was by far a better horse than Sea the Stars but got no credit for it because she had gone by then and the media were selling you a lie. She beat the same horses easier in comparison or did you miss that? I listened to one guy from Timeform last year say he was the best he had even seen and the same man this year telling all Frankel would have absolutely destroyed Sea the Stars not jut beat him but destroyed him. Funny how quick people change their minds when a real superstar comes along. I laughed at the first statement because Sea the Stars compared to horses like Sea Bird II, Mill Reef, Nijinsky, Danging Brave,Ribot, Secretariat he was boring to watch. Great horses have the ability to travel like Sea the Stars then explode in such a fashion they put lengths between themselves and others. Like Floyd Patterson was a great boxer but he was no Muhhamad Ali, Sea the Stars was a great racehorse but he's no Secretariat. It wasn't that long ago the Media bandwagon had people sold on Duke of Marmalade being an all time great having won 6 consecutive Group 1's but like Sea the Stars the opposition was pretty ordinary by classic standards. In the meantime is who can spot a real star were lumping onto Zarkava at 7/1 months before the Arc when DOM was av and all the rage. Make no mistake this Frankel is the real deal. He's head and shoulders above Sea the Stars. Not many people will realise this but such was his impact as a 2 year old he was already rated the same as Zarkava going into the Guineas as she was at the end of her career. If you lot are trying to convince me that Sea the Stars had 1/10th of Frankels talent then you are peeing against the wind. |
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Wavinatbuses don't kid yourself about the Guineas and people just might be underestimating how good a horse Dubawi Gold is. According to Hughsie he would have won 7 of the last 10 Guineas and people are being unfair saying he only finished 2nd because others were taken of their feet. He beat the rest fair and square including a horse Fallon said before the Guineas was highly underated and is now vying for favourtism in the Derby.
Wouldn't take much to be e better than Delegator who finished up STS's backside. They say if Frankel hadn't run the result would have been different but Hughsie reckons they are talking through a hole in their backsides and this is one very good horse. Time will tell. |
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surely u can see that the reason sts didnt put 10L between himself and the rest of the field is because hes too smart, hes probably the cleverest race horse to hit the track too, how do u think he was able to win all the races he did not a bother to him. he worked harder than was required and thus allowed him to a g1 every month.
frankels guineas was amazing, theres no disputing that but lets put it in to perspective here in relation to the achievements of sts, an achievement that will most likely NEVER be match, theres a reason frankel isnt goin to the derby, this wonder horse that can beat any horse thats ever lived by 20L, 'the greatest ever', hes not the complete racehorse, and lack the depth and overall ability that sts and dancing brave and sea bird, they all have one thing in common in that they won the guineas as well as middle distance races, frankel isnt even lining up for the derby, wonder horse? u are talking about how frankle would have destroyed sts if they had been in the same guineas as if its already happened just because some radio pundits won timeform whose opinion, because thats all it is, opinion is only as good as the mug punters in the local bookies and u talk like they are god and what they say matters so it must be true. sea the stars guineas time was even faster than frankels and dont kid youself, there wasnt a lot if anything left in frankels locker at the end, they were closing on him if anything. frankel will never win an arc or a derby sts won them all inc the guineas, there is absolutely no comparison, look min their trophy cabinets at the end of the season and tell me whose better. the fact that sts was a dual classic winner already makes his race record better by default let alone the bleedin arc and the rest of the races. how quickly people forget and just attach their colours to the next up and coming star. u probably said workforce would destroy sts after is derby did u? of course not  |
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HORSE OF ALL TIME MORE LIKE!
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Bayardo 22, Pretty Polly 22 wins
Brigadier Gerard, Lemberg, Marsayas 17 Ribot, Rock Sand, Prestige 16 Dahlia. Tenerani 15 Pharos, Nearco, Abernant, Petite Etoile, Ardross 14 Sceptre, Tetratema, Allez France, Moorstyle, Park Top, Goldikova 13 Mill Reef, Fairway, Brantome, Tantieme, Pappa Fourway, Halling 12 Pearl Cap, Nijinsky, Prince Palatine, sardanapale, Le Moss, Daylami, Montjeu 11 Coronach, Windsor Lad, Sayani, Chanteur, Tanerko, Sagaro, Indian Skimmer, Swain 10 Not a full list. Some lesser horses omitted. Kincsem won 54 races from 54. |
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^ from the excellent book
Bayardo, The Life, Times and Legacy of an Edwardian Champion by Peter Corbett |
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He'd have to win well at 1 1/4m and 1 1/2m to be a horse of a generation. If not he'll always he classed as
a one dimensional miler- possibly one of the best ever. Nashwan , dancing brave and sea to the stars took the test and delivered; will frankel be given the chance? Its beginning to look unlikely. They'd rather run him against a handful of rivals over a mile at 1/8. Anti-climax? |
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1. Nijinsky
2. Frankel 3. Zenyatta 4. Brigadier Gerard 5. Goldikova On you go my beauty! On you go! Money, money, money! |
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Sea The Stars is the horse of a generation, a Guineas, Derby and Arc winner. Frankel would have been but we will never know now as connections have no bottle or ambition and wont run him in the Derby which he would win by a street. St James Palace what a joke.
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Eric Morris - you are a legend on here according to others?
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Still to this day horses that finished behind STS are winning Group races he won at the highest level 6 times from 8f to 12f finishing with a victory in an Arc where 6 came out to win Grp 1's after it. He pocketed 4.5 million in his race career.
He is the real horse of a generation!!! |
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The Derby is the Blue Riband of British racing. Frankel is a horse bred to win the Derby but instead will duck the race for a relatively meaningless St James Palace Stakes (at a course where has has won a Group 2 by 10 lengths, over a distance where he already has 3 wins including a classic by 6 lengths). Exactly what is he supposed to prove by repeating history?
His absence devalues the Derby and could easily set a precedent for potential champions ducking the race in future years. Coolmore, to their credit, have proved willing to take up the challenge often running horses with far less perceived chance of truly staying the trip. This was the route for Frankel to prove his greatness by winning Classics over a mile and 12 furlongs before moving on to either high profile (and probably small field) 10 furlong races and/or taking on his elders over a mile. Can anyone honestly see him competing against his owner's Workforce in the Arc? 12 furlongs is highly unlikely to happen. His trainer, who I have and will continue to have the greatest respect for, is known for flying a flag over Warren Place to celebrate winning a Group 1 race. I wonder what his true feelings will be if/when that takes place on the 15th June. It may well be that by this afternoon the owner/trainer will have a Derby favourite anyway. Good luck to them but for the good of a sport which needs its champions it will, in my opinion, be the wrong horse. he has already won over |
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Forget that last bit
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Let's hope HRAC great trainer though he is, does not get any more great versatile colts as they are wasted on him he wont try them over 2 Classic trips.
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Up
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dancing brave, WOW now were talking
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?
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i don't quite understand why they couldn't even give him an entry in the eclipse?
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has anybody seen Frankels races.Too free,would never win over 1m4,hed never get the trip.Agree with trainer,it proves him no less of a superstar.
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well it does. he lacks versatility. i mean hes still a superstar but he lacks the versatile brilliance of dancing brave, nijinksky, sea the stars etc.
champion miller perhaps. |
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miler*
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I'm with you buses
A lotta rubbish being written about Frankel And even more about STS |
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Demeaning Frankel as a possible horse of a generation simply because he isn't as versatile as others (at least not yet) is faulted. Using that basis, Usain Bolt is not the athelete of a generation.
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how long long is a generation?
surely the horse that has won the guineas / derby / juddmonte / eclipse / irish champ and arc is the horse of our generation! this feat will most likely not be repeated in the next 50 yrs if ever. sts is the 1st to do it for a start in the whole history of the sport. so how the hell can frankel even come in to it, he didnt even run in the derby due to stamina doubts, he will not top the achievements of sea the stars. hes already failed by not even taken part in the derby! it will always be a blot on his copybook. |
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frankel has potential but frankely [;)] i have not seen enough to judge it as a horse of generation... the guineas win was good but we would like to see more!!! skipping derby raises questions if the horse is one-dimensional...
STS has set the bar very high.. i dont think we will see another horse win as many wins over different distances in different countries... the only complaint i have is STS didnt go to breeders cup but i guess the owners took the rational money decision over win decision for frankel to be at same level as STS, i would like to see it win few races this year and beat strong opposition .. i doubt if we will see him more than 3-4 times this year... and then off to stud... |
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not going to the BC was the right thing to do!! what other horse couldve won grp 1s once a month for 6 months without a mid summer break? then be expected to travel across the atlantic. none.
hes the champion, of course it wouldve been great to see him race again over there but he had absolutely nothing to prove, nothing. maybe he'd have went if they skipped the arc or had a break but u cant have it both ways. look at the break frankel has had and he now he only has to race over a distance hes v comfortable with , we know he gets a mile, and he faces opposition hes already destroyed at a course hes already run at. hes 1/3 to win the race, prob shorter on the day, why not go to queen anne and take on the big boys if hes a horse of a generation? sts sits a top a pyramid of equine perfection achieving something that has never been achieved. frankel is so far a sublime racehorse. his guineas win was breathtaking but he is not sts. gl |
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As the Queen Anne is for 4 yr olds + ilwab getting into the race would have been far more difficult than winning it.
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