how much for a lesson with leadbetter,foley?

snakeoil salesmen every one

why's that bud?

I find it incredible that people believe these charlatans know anything about golf. Lets take Foley for example.
Tiger has been working with him for at least 2 tears and has now reached a point where he is unable to hit a
driver off the tee.

But Foley is only the latest. Tigers problems began on the first day he met Butch Harmon. The changes and tinkering
that began on Tigers game than was the equivalent of damageing a great work of art. Tiger should never have changed anything
from the age of 17. The golf swing of a genius is a mysterious and VERY fragile thing.

The damage started by Harmon and continued by others is a crime. They have destroyed a thing of beauty.

By the way Leadbetter has been involved in `teaching` in the past few years Michelle Wie. This has resulted in
potentially the greatest ever female golfer....someone who was more talented incidentally than 95% of male
professionals and could have played in the masters and won on the mens tour...resulted in her struggling to win
on the ladies tour. It really is a great pity.

comedy gold

lfc1971
post of the year.
Time for a lie down in a dark room.

I think Faldo,tiger disagree

Adam Scott,Justin Rose and Phil Mickelson are the three Major winners so far this year.Anyone know who coaches them ?

some loser who obviously knows nothing about the golf swing,

butch harmon x2 and foley coaches rose

i thought it was a pisstake question..... heh . still not sure

It was ,sorry Hearts.Just pointing out to ifc how well the charlatans as he puts it have done so far this year.Imagine if they had decent coaches.

I think I could coach a world top ten golfer and not do too much damage.
It would be a little more difficult to get a club pro to win a major.

There's very little any coach could do to make Rose,Scott,Tiger etc better golfers but what they can do is give them
a new swing thought from time to time and then when they become stale,move on to the next Hollywood coach.

The top pros would be far better off having an elite sports psychologist than someone like Butch Harmon in
my opinion.

To befair, Butch has just seen Nick Watney on the range. Still got rid of you , ya flash twatt

Rotella will sort Rory out, there'll be a 73 soon you watch

Scott fired off Butch a few years back.

This LFC character is a wind up merchant. For the record Tiger has been working with Foley for just under two years. In that time he has 8 wins and finished in the top 11 in 5 majors and gone from 52 to 1 in the world rankings. Most would see that as a good career.

yeah tiger got unlucky the masters,top 6 the open,hunky dori

Not really surprised at the lack of golf knowledge on this forum, but in truth the sheer superficiality and
lack of any real understanding of most is staggering.

Let me put it in simple terms and limit it to one coach to make it easy for you...Sean Foley knows almost nothing
about the golf swing, and he along with Harmon and the rest are doing great damage

IMO Tiger is swinging the club well again now, just as he was swinging it well in the early 2000's.
Different coaches both doing a good job I would say, I feel that there are a couple of reasons why Tiger is not getting the results in the majors tho.
Firstly, more important than a sound swing is the confidence that it is going to work, I bet Tiger is hitting the ball as well as he has ever done on the practice ground and in practice rounds, because it just does not matter if you hit a bad shot, and for a guy with 78 wins on the PGA Tour a regular Tour event is not going to be too stressful a situation either, but the Majors with time running out to beat Jacks record is as about as important as it gets for Tiger, it's going to test his swing more than anything else.
The second thing is before Foley Tiger was playing with strong draw that could of course turn into a hook or a big block, Foley has neutralized the shape, trying to stop Tiger getting the club stuck behind him, as you can see from every practice swing he ever makes nowadays, that was the correct thing to do I would say, in the past Tiger would have bad rounds hitting hooks and blocks till it would look like he was falling out of contention, then switch to hitting stingers and fades and come back and win the tournament.
I don't think Tiger is as good as he was at hitting the 'safe fade' now, he is using that swing feel to neutralize the hook.
For me it all boils down to weather Tiger can get the confidence back, I feel the coaches have given him the swing.

Pretty sure Tiger had to change the swing cos of the pressure it was putting on is knee and it needed changing so he could still compete at the top for the long tern

That's correct, but it is still the same swing fault that was causing the knee problem.

You can be sure Tiger is not hitting the ball well on the practice ground. I don`t think people realise the true
nature of Tigers swing problems and how far they go back...but he does and surprisingly they go back bafore the time
he won the slam....already by that time damage had been done by Harmon

The only thing Tiger needed to do when younger to stay free of injury was play golf, practice a little less,
and stay away from weights or running or training.

I would have to disagree with the "not hitting it well on the practice ground" I stood behind him on the practice ground at Bay Hill, he was swinging it really well, shot after shot. On the course I stood behind him again on the 6th, completely different swing, re-routed to the inside because of the fear of the water to his left.

Wish i could have been at the Bay Hill practice ground and had a word...could have been a different outcome
at the open

I'd recomend a read of Hank Haney's book. In it Haney describes Tigers obsession with the Army. At one point he wanted to become a navy seal. He damaged his knee on some action training weekend with the seals.

I like the bit about Poulter scrounging a lift on Tigers plane, and picturing Poulter reading it

Yep that bit did make me

Butch flattened out Tigers swing in the early noughties to get better distance control with
his shorter irons but that flatter swing caused massive problems with his long game resulting
in a massive block or a duck hook when his hands got too active.
Tiger hasn't swung the club well since 2000,imo. It's just his phenomenal will to win
and the fact he's the greatest clinch putter ever born that wins him golf tournaments.

Foley won't help Westwood win a major just like he didn't help Rose win the US open.
What will help Westwood,just like Rose, is 4 solid days with the putter and the odd lucky
break here and there.

To make a point how ridiculously over hyped these coaches have become,Foley had had one
5 hour session with Westwood and yet people were saying that he had completely changed
Lee's game!!!

Gladly,for the sake of Harmon and Foley, there are millions of drongos in the world who
fall for all that nonsense.

go back to any golf film from the 70s or early 80s and you will see ten or so guys all with a different swing. Go to a pro event or top amateur and watch on the range the vast majority swing the same so coaching has had an effect on the game.

How much difference the big name coaches make is debatable. There are 100s of golfers who can play well or shoot a low number what separates the tour guys and then the guys who win is as much between the ears as in the swing.

Foley must be doing something right not only does he coach rose, westwood and woods his long term project is Hunter Mahan. Remind me where he started sunday in the last two majors?

why did Hany ysing like a bird about tiger?

did he feel badly treated

Foley has become the latest must have accessory to the multi millionaire tour pros.I'm
not saying he's a bad coach by any means,I just feel his impact on players winning
tournaments is purely psychological rather than technical. He admits himself
he's not very technical but he's just become very fashionable.

As for all the younger pros swinging the same,that's simply because you get kids
as young as 10 having 3 lessons a week. It's horrendous and will probably result
in us never seeing another Seve or Trevino.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5cnH3pexXA














check out these swings

Westwood working with Foley.

Hasn't done Eddy much good

As for all the younger pros swinging the same,that's simply because you get kids
as young as 10 having 3 lessons a week. It's horrendous and will probably result
in us never seeing another Seve or Trevino.

There are a few who make it thru being quirky e.g. bubba or furyk.

The simple fact is the average tour pro is miles better than his 70s or 80s counterpart.

the criticism of foley here is a bit harsh.

He has done a superb job with Rose. The difference between him now and four or five years ago is huge. He is arguably the most consistent ball striker out there. He has also brought some stability to Tiger.

Golf seems to be one of the few sports were the average player, or indeed any of the players have improved
since the 70s or 80s.

Players scored 70 in the 1950s and they still score 70. Of course some courses are longer but this is offset
by new clubs and how much further the modern ball goes. Fairways and bunkers and greens are in much better condition
now.

So all in all the question is what improvements have all these coaches brought...the scores remain pretty much the same

sorry one of the few sports were any of the players have not improved

the average tour pro is better than the average tour pro of previous generations imo. The best however are hard to quantify. As you say, clubs, ball, massive emphasis on gym work/psycho work

And Golf is a far richer sport than it was 30 years ago so there's far more incentive to be a journeyman pro than there was in those days.Most average pros back then couldnt afford to give up their jobs to play on the tour so were basically part time players.No,imo,the way to judge different eras is through their best players.Nicklaus,Player,Watson,Trevino,Hogan against Tiger,Phil,Ernie,Vijay and now Rory.

We're going slightly off topic here but my general point is that far too many modern players dont have a clue about their own swing and how to correct it on course.They have regimental lessons from an early age which basically teaches all the flair out of them.Im convinced there are some top 50 players on the PGA tour who havent got a clue how to play a knockdown shot for example or a pitch and run.They barely leave the pitch and putt courses of the PGA tour and god help them if the temperature drops below 75.

This is not having a go at the likes of Foley,Harmon etc.As i said earlier,there are enough rich idiots to pay a couple of grand for 30mins lessons for them never have to worry about money again.My more general point is at elite level,imo,coaches are nothing more than a fashion accessory

I have yet to meet anyone, who has really had their game improved by spending money on lessons.
Quite often they get worse...and it is not a case of giving it time.

At the highest level there has never been a case of any coach helping any player become a better player.
This includes Faldo and Leadbetter.

Golf is one sport that is quantifiable. What do the top players score, what of the average, and what do the millions
of amateur players score. This has not changed. Also look at the scorecards of friends who have had lessons.

They were going round in 18 over par 2 years ago, guess what? they still are. At the same time top pros are still scoring70

I have done a fair bit of work with a Golfing union and junior golfers coming through are just mini version of the pros in dress sense,swings,and an utter obsession with lessons.Most talented two players we ever had through were both pretty much self taught but from relatively poor backgrounds with not enough money for basic lessons never mind going abroad to La Manga or Florida for 6 weeks of the year for coaching holidays.We helped as much as we could but with the family being put off by the expense of golf,it became practically impossible for the boys to continue without family support.

i tell you what though,i would have backed those two boys to go on and have a better chance of making it than any of the robots we used to see coming through.I remember one boy coming to a lesson in Newport with us and we had all the practice bays lined up with buckets of balls etc and his grandfather came on to me and said the boy couldn't use them balls and insisted he'd only practice with pro-v1s so went back to the car and got a massive bag full of them never to be seen again!! The boy hit two pull hooks in a row and turned around to his grandfather and said i told you i should have had a lesson before we came.I was genuinely staggered and disappointed to what modern junior golf had become.

just looked at,junior golf tour UK,they play all over the world

handicap less than 11

They do xmoneyx played with a 15 year old a couple of months ago who was plus 1. He had been all over dubai, Europe, US etc. His dad was telling me that Nike were sponsoring his son and covering expenses allowing him to travel.

A good guide to how much more competitive the game has become is to look at the difference between the 36 hole leader and the cut number. This has reduced significantly in the last twenty years.

The standard is much higher now than it was even 20 years ago. Anyone who plays their local scratch events can't fail to notice the ever increasing number of plus golfers.

Interesting topic / posts .

The ever increasing number of practice facilities indicates that more and more balls are being struck , in the old days practice facilities were few and far between . In those days people like Seve with "natural " practice facilities were natural players who could play most shots because they practised all sorts of shots in all sorts of terrain . You would be hard put to name any of current under age 40 players who have not grown up with homogenised practice facilities and coaches , hence the "standard" swings , and the huge number of low handicap players out there .

But the ability to beat your peers ultimatley is not just about swings , its about getting the job done when the pressure is on . Step up Tiger , and Nick , two of the best ever at that .

Watched a lot of the pros last year on the practice range at Portrush in the Irish Open .  Hardly a bad shot anywhere on the range , even from the less gifted players . But out on the course ... hazards and fear factors cloud the mind , even Tiger suffers . And life is so comfortable for the top pros that finishing 25th instead of fifth isn't life or death financially .  Twas not always so !

Video facilities must be useful .  Waiting for someone to appear who has the ability to analyse his own swing via historical footage , and can tie it in with how he felt and swung the club / played when in a winning mode . Then its just copy / reversion time . Guess the coaches would not appreciate him .

let me put to bed seve NEVER had lessons,they always quote his 3 iron on beach when he was a school kid


His maternal uncle Ramón Sota was Spanish professional champion four times and finished sixth in the Masters Tournament in 1965.

Ballesteros' older brother Manuel finished in the top 100 on the European Tour order of merit every year from 1972 to 1983, and later became Ballesteros' manager.

His brothers Vicente and Baldomero, and nephew Raúl are also professional golfers.

Xmoneyx ,I was careful not to say Seve never had lessons , know his story well a la excellent book .  But he spent most of his younger days in and around a golf course , nipping "over the fence" and playing all sorts of shots , unsupervised .  No doubt his connections advised him , but dont think anyone was his "coach " in the sense of nowadays . Turned pro at 17 or less Seve .

Learnt to play myself that way , back garden chipping initially , pitch and putt ,  then holidays where we had the run of shore / beach based land a la links , and also holidays in Newcastle where we played mainly on Annesley course ( excellent ) . Then to Mourne/ RCD via local contacts etc .

Had one lesson in my life , but from an Open Champion .  He taught me how to hit the ball better .

thx Kelly

turning pro 17--yeah u need natural talent

like langer pro 16---amazing

Yeah xmoneyx , amazing talent .  Just watching little Bernhard there in Senior Open . Ran across him at one of the Irish Opens in Portmarnock before he hit the headlines , one of the security men wouldn't let him this young guy into the players area for lunch . We were going in  with the tournament "organiser" , and I spoke good German  then, Bernhard came in with us as we vouched for him .  Knowing Bernhard's eye for detail , guess he never forgot his accreditation again ! --unlike Tiger at Mount Juliet !

Kelly --question about women's  European masters this week

noticed its 3 rounds,any golf event that doesn't have open is 3 rounds?

Hard to tell who's on the wind up here.

Every sport has coaches, golf is no different. Most pro golfers are massively insecure and need reassurance and cajoling as much as telling their hips are out of line.

I've caddied in a few pro events, under pressure 99% of them turn to jelly

I remember a couple of years back,an older pro not really known had the honour of first group out the open,i could see the fear in his eyes just to hit the ball.it went about  200 yds right rough

I always feel it is a shame with golf that technology improvements, and then course lengthening make it harder to compare performances from the past with todays achievements.
Overall tho taking technology v lengthening I feel the players are much improved now.
But I would not take the lower handicaps on mass as proof of that, it seems so much easier with todays handicapping system to achieve a low handicap. For example you could never get to below 3 handicap in the past without a certain percentage of rounds being played on away courses, now you can get down to any handicap just by specialising on one course.
There is also a local course to me that must have one of the highest number of scratch or better players as members (mostly country / away members) mainly because the sss is 3 above par.
Mind you it is also far too easy to manipulate your handicap in the other direction as well I think, to many people happy to play team events and knock out events, and just use the weekly medal or stableford to get an extra 0.1 each week.

most guys who get a plus handicap are playing regular in scratch events. Once you get to category one these events are better way of getting low than playing just a your home club.

Good points above about Seve.  He probably never had formal lessons, but if he played golf with brothers and uncles who were pros he would learn by watching, asking, and being told what he was doing wrong.  And they would give him the course management smarts during rounds of golf together.

I was only ever a 14 handicap.  For a few years as a teenager (no handicap, not a member) on holidays for a month in the west of Ireland I played in a fourball with my father (hacker), my uncle (5) and his son.  Watching my uncle play, and his comments about what to play, where to aim, was free lessons.  He would often hit a short drive to the middle of the fairway, and easy 3 iron short of the green (and the bunkers) chip on and hole the putt.  He won the Captain's prize three times at his club, over about 40 years.

Since we are talking golf lessons and Bernhard Langer.
In 1979 (?) I was working in Zambia.  A friend followed Christy O'Connor Jnr around in the Lusaka Open.  You could walk on the fairways with the players but this guy took it to extremes.  For 18 holes he was nearer to Christy than his caddy.  I followed other players.

After the round I was having a beer in the clubhouse when my friend called me over to have a beer with his "friend" Christy and with Eamonn D'Arcy.  Sheepishly I shuffled over.  Christy was very nice.
Christy had offered my friend a golf lesson so we went over to the range.  He thought it best if my friend hit a few balls from the left side of the range across the range at right angles to the pros.  His first shot was a low shank that cleared Bernhard Langer's head by about a foot.  Bernhard smiled.  Christy took his pupil about 50 yard further down range.  So a golf lesson almost ended Langer's career.  He was about 20 at the time and Christy said he was a quality player.

It was £50 an hour in TopGolf Epping about 6-7 years ago for a rubbish player like me. God knows what these top dudes charge

Kingscem , think my encounter with Bernhard was about that age or younger . Reference todays Senior Open , Christy Jnr and Darcy both retired from the fray today .

I get lessons of this ex pro. He won three times on the PGA Euro pro tour and then played on the challenge tour. Just recently became pro at one of my local clubs. He charges £25 a hour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Robinson_%28golfer%29

U can analyze golf swings all u want but if u don't putt u won't win on the PGA Tour
5:13am - 14 Jul 13

Hank Haney

That's given Mark Roe some more business