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cicero
03 Aug 18 19:25
Joined:
Date Joined: 13 Feb 08
| Topic/replies: 10,384 | Blogger: cicero's blog
like in animal farm the revolution is over the pigs wear clothes and carry whips
the once great p2p betting site is now just a bookmaker

the great cull in markets...betfair was the best not just because of liquidity in the markets but because of the
breadth of markets...now gone

the monopolistic advantages that bf has had that led to this complacency will surely be there downfall...the time has come for another
p2p site to come to the fore...one that will listen to the people

i asked for numerous markets to be added over the last year, all denied.

swimming european championships hosted in glasgow and live on bbc... requested and denied
the fact that there is no front facing member of the market making team leaves me frustrated
making my case to people with little knowledge of either sports or betting is frustrating too

specials markets virtually non existent...motor racing about half the markets gone
any request i have made for a market has been denied..

i have been a betfair user since the beginning now its time to try the others.
Anyone fancy starting up a wikibet?? donations rather than commission and a user interface to set up own market
get it checked by a "monitor" and go live????
Pause Switch to Standard View Why are they so obtuse??
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Report cicero August 4, 2018 1:55 AM BST
bf buddie wasn't offering odds but other big firms were....As regards to £5000 matched on Adam Peaty at 1.02 doesn't really count.

Try telling the poor guy(S) who lost £5000 the night peaty drowned.

Its stories like that which keep the p2p exchange alive.....
Report cicero August 4, 2018 2:16 AM BST
In 2015 bf would accommodate market requests (especially the knowledgeable Australian crew). now they don't, often quoting "liquidity".
That is the issue.

Btw.. Haven't heard a "yeaah I agree m8" in along time...poss due to lifestyle change for me

(stopped early morning poker and drunken log ins)

exception tonight...now drunk
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 4, 2018 2:31 AM BST
Some events....last years French elections and the McGregor Mayweather farce fight generate huge betting interest. I don't really know why, but I think it's someat to do with suggestive social media.

Where the exchange has definitely failed miserably is not offering markets on Love Island.  Haven't watched any of it, but I know there is betting on it, it's live and involves voting, and it's clearly captured the brain dead's imagination like Le Pen, Melenchon and McGregor.
Report cicero August 4, 2018 2:37 AM BST
Also (ranting now)

If betfair and everyone keep thinking liquidity is the only issue, then we all will become uniform and robotic. if so,
we may as well all head down the pub and play the fruities..
Report cicero August 4, 2018 2:41 AM BST
I would love to lay their bets
Report cicero August 4, 2018 2:49 AM BST
especially that Mcgregor looks like he would lose a few bob
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 4, 2018 2:50 AM BST
This carte blanche message "don't ever ask for markets again, as we have made our mind up and won't consider anything" is an arrogant recipe for failure.  Love Island could easily hit turnover of seven figures if the show persists in it's popularity.  Not only that, it draws new customers and keeps some existing customers active, when otherwise they might not be.  I'm sure had the Betfair helpdesk not been so aloof, and offputting, that market would have been requested, offered and ended up thriving.
Report JML August 4, 2018 11:53 AM BST
Didn't watch the programe but I'm also surprised that they didn't have a market for love island.

Was it possible for someone to know any results before everyone else?


Many markets have been removed from the golf--of those that remain you'd expect the 72 hole match bets to be popular

Biggish tournament this week,all the best players in action but the amounts matched are  44,1327,1230,87,1060 and 0.
Report Templeton Peck August 4, 2018 1:18 PM BST
Good to see a thread here on The Great Cull.  I've been speaking to them about this for the last few months with little to no success.  It's a "market rationalisation" project but the analysis used to determine which markets to cull appears to be limited.  They're going to be losing out on tens of thousands in PC from me alone so I've no idea why they think this is a profitable move. 

It makes sense to remove markets that never see a penny matched but they're getting rid of stuff that can see thousands matched event after event.
Report JML August 4, 2018 2:13 PM BST
It's profitable because they can employ less staff and there is every chance the people losing the money on these markets
will use the sportsbook or just place a bet on a different market.


Any bet placed on a more popular market will be at much more favourable terms and will result in them losing at a slower rate
and therefore paying more commission for every £ lost.
Report Templeton Peck August 4, 2018 2:41 PM BST
These are valid points but at what point does it cost them more than it saves them plus what they make in commission/bets elsewhere?

If I want to place a bet on an F1 submarket then I no longer can on the exchange, I can't on the Sportsbook as I'm limited to pennies there - as I'm sure many exchange users are - and I'm not all of a sudden going to bet on a random high liquidity market instead just because I can't back what I want.

The exchange appears to be nothing to them now other than a low-risk cash cow.  They've no intention of growing or improving it, just reduce its size and rely on the steady income from the largest markets whilst cutting costs.  If we're only left with these markets then all that will happen is more will move to Purple et al as liquidity is ok there for such markets (and will improve).
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 4, 2018 4:07 PM BST
If you ask the BF Sportsbook for a bet on a League One match with 2 yellow cards, 15 corner kicks, exactly 3 goals and 3 minutes of added time I'm sure they will happily accomodate you.
Report pmbets August 4, 2018 9:41 PM BST
All in all Betfair now is just a bookmaker.The exchange is on it's last legs and the only hope is these new starter exchanges will increase liquidity and everyone will move
over there and never return to betfair.I mean hand on heart how many of you can really recommend Betfair to a friend?I would say very few.
Report Latalomne August 5, 2018 10:33 AM BST

Aug 3, 2018 -- 3:34PM, bingo bongo wrote:


Yes too many markets on some football matches, alot of markets duplicated, been saying this for years. I think these are easy to set up and settle though so bf aren't concerned. I've missed quite a few markets which have been removed, eg on test cricket. But for me the worst change has been in handicaps and totals to have every single line across all sports. eg, every 3 set tennis match has 110 lines for total games - complete overkill and unless you operate a bot theres no point putting up offers. But again its probably easier for bf because every match is the same now.


The handicap / supremacy lines thing is the bit that annoys me most, too.  No matter how they try to dress it up, the only reason they have done this is so that they can run at 110% on each pair of lines.  It has no place on an Exchange where people are looking to trade.  In fact, it has virtually killed any prospect of being able to trade since only the current even money (well, 1.9/1.9) line is displayed on the website and only people running an API product are even going to be seeing the other lines....

I have had this argument with them and have begged that there should be at least one 'static' pre-ko handicap line, too, but they're just not interested. 

IMHO, the whole thing is geared towards PPBF getting a bigger piece of the pie, and in that I include the fact that we've lost a lot of markets on here.

Report Templeton Peck August 5, 2018 11:22 AM BST
I've been told they've finally admitted they got the new handicap system completely wrong.  I've also told them they should have one (or a couple more in the big matches) static line in the old format in addition to this but that always seems to fall on deaf ears. 

I've been told they will be changing it to a format similar to how the football handicaps looks.  This still has plenty of issues but they think they know best (many of us have spent 10+ years living on the site so I beg to differ, especially since the merger when they lost a lot of long-term employees).

I think The Great Cull of markets is definitely to help shift some of the mug punters to PPBF. I think the manpower argument is overdone considering they already load and settle these markets elsewhere in the business.
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 5, 2018 12:30 PM BST
I think you are reaching the wrong conclusions.  My conclusion is they want the exchange to flourish, but are ignorant and are just throwing blind darts.
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 5, 2018 12:46 PM BST
The logic that they will deliberately make one of their products weaker in the hope they will switch to another of their products, when they have lots of competition is just ridiclulous.  They should be thinking about why they have a competitive advantage.  That should always be the number one priority.
Report Latalomne August 5, 2018 1:42 PM BST
If they were bothered about the competition, they'd have never have started a sportsbook to begin with.  Part of the reason they did was that they could see that too much "mug money" was leaving the ecosystem via the sharks and they wanted more of it for themselves, even after the PC was brought in (even at the most extreme end of the scale, there's still 40% less a bit of comms leakage).

They told me what they told TP above 3 months ago re a new format, yet here we are with nothing having changed, save for a few more markets having disappeared. 

Don't get me wrong, the side markets were on the wane anyway, but the new lines have exacerbated their demise greatly.
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 5, 2018 3:27 PM BST
"If they were bothered about the competition, they'd have never have started a sportsbook to begin with."

I don't agree with that at all.  Although obviously there's a crossover, there's a market for both and there's no reason to limit yourself to the smaller market, and while some business may go west to the Sportsbook, conversely some will go East.  Yes there was a time when they proioritised the sportsbook, but to me it's been obvious for a while they are pushing both.  When I talk about competition I'm not talking just about Smarkets Matchbook and ****, but clearly  they are more like for like competion for the exchange.  All bookies are competition. 

Where I disagree (with Betfair it seems) is that part of what sets the Betfair exchange above it's rivals is that it has a feasible market for the non major sports.  Eurovision for example is massive on here and hopeless anywhere else.  It's markets like that and far less busy ones which distinguish Betfair from it's rivals.  That's one reason why you base yourself here.  Because there's more choice and more opportunity.  It's a bit like banking, it's simpler to stay in one place.  Take away choice and you lose some of the reasons people base themselves here.  I don't get their rationalisations anyway.  The biggest issue I've always had is the endless list of football markets, many with no turnover at all, that annoys you when you are trying to find the market you still want.  That's not about choice as you've got loads of markets anyway even if some did go, but all those markets are still there.  I also think that where practical, if a customer requests a market on the exchange, you should look to provide it.  It's not about the business generated from that market, it's about the goodwill it generates.
Report cicero August 6, 2018 7:48 AM BST
well done bf on putting hockey final up.. you listened
post timing here.... could have put up a winning margin market
dutch 0-5          exactly 6         over 6       and of course any other

i would have priced it
8.2 0-5

1.01 exactly 6

42 over 6

2.2 any other

afraid to put the 'any other' price higher because you might settle it 'in what ever way it suits'

bottom line bf... if everyone who makes money from your site leaves...you lose
Report JML August 6, 2018 8:34 AM BST
What we're really intrested in is HOW MUCH WAS MATCHED?

8.2,1.01 and 42 (or is it 8.2,1.01,42 And 2.2?????) We can now see why you're so keen on having these very quiet markets.


I think you'll find that the winners ain't going anywhere.
Report Templeton Peck August 6, 2018 10:05 AM BST
If a winner's markets are no longer offered then they won't be hanging around.  I'm probably going to lose out on 30% of what I make because of this policy.  I'm not going to move to other markets as I don't want to spend time finding an edge only for Betfair to then remove that market as well.  Markets with five figures matched and a
Report JML August 6, 2018 11:00 AM BST
We are talking about markets with next to no interest and their removal will only affect a very few.
It's the lack of competition that make them profitable.

Todays Hull v Villa----2 easy to price accurately markets

Match Odds and Over/Under 2.5 Goals---- 107.2%
Match Odds and Both teams to Score------107.1%

You're not going to switch off your bot and say goodbye to the other 70%.

What were you going to say about markets with five figures matched?
Report Templeton Peck August 6, 2018 11:57 AM BST
No idea why the rest of my sentence was cut off.

Markets with five figures matched and at acceptable prices are being culled, not just markets seeing pennies. 

I have never used a bot.  If I'm winning just 70% of what I was and all other markets are just going to become even more competitive or culled over time, why would I bother spending my life doing this?  It's not as if I'm unable to earn a living elsewhere.

The two markets you mention look fine to me, especially 8 hours before kick off.  AV/Yes is 5.8, best price elsewhere is 5.5 and that's only with WH. Generally 5.0.
Report JML August 6, 2018 1:35 PM BST
I'm surprised no one hasn't used a bot to make the "Match Odds and Over/Under 2.5 Goals" more competitive
because the prices are easily calculated from the "correct score" market.

The sub £2 bot is all over these markets which is a sign of the poor value on offer.

Perhaps any market that regularly attracts the sub £2 bot should be culled.

Any more details about these five figure markets--what was the average amount matched?


I've seen the "Method of Victory" market with hundreds of thousands matched  but in
most cases they attract little interest,but still more than many of the other markets on offer.
Report cicero August 6, 2018 2:24 PM BST
JML, why are you so interested in amount matched??? I presume your a big player?

save a thought for the little guys...one mans rubbish is another mans treasure.

also I was clearly being jovial on my hockey pricing!
I do prefer markets where the odds aren't so easy to assess, where skill and judgement are required.

here's one...how much has JML got in his account today?

under 1000    6/1
1000 to 10000   3/1
10001 to 100000  1/1
over 100000  4/1
Report JML August 6, 2018 3:25 PM BST
The thread is about the great cull.

I'd have thought that the most important thing in deciding what to cull is the amount matched.

That's why I wanted to know how much was matched--but to be fair most people wouldn't even think of looking for a
Hockey market.
Report cicero August 6, 2018 4:11 PM BST
There was 10000 matched, bf only put it up because of the interest in Ireland in the final (first time in history an Irish team
reached a world cup final of a field sport). They lost 6 nil against the 6 time world champions Holland. The Dutch were 1.2 at the beginning
looks big now!
What i would like to see happen....Its fine for bf to cull markets with historically little matched but if they could be more reasonable in
adding requested markets such as those that terrestrial tv deems view worthy.
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 6, 2018 4:25 PM BST
Match Odds and Over/Under 2.5 Goals---- 107.2%
Match Odds and Both teams to Score------107.1%


That is my idea of utterly pointless markets.  Mug punter only territory
Report Templeton Peck August 6, 2018 6:06 PM BST

Aug 6, 2018 -- 7:35AM, JML wrote:


I'm surprised no one hasn't used a bot to make the "Match Odds and Over/Under 2.5 Goals" more competitive because the prices are easily calculated from the "correct score" market.The sub £2 bot is all over these markets which is a sign of the poor value on offer.Perhaps any market that regularly attracts the sub £2 bot should be culled.Any more details about these five figure markets--what was the average amount matched?I've seen the "Method of Victory" market with hundreds of thousands matched  but in most cases they attract little interest,but still more than many of the other markets on offer.


That market is botted up.  Put in the wrong odds, probably something linked to Correct Score, and it will immediately snap it up.

As for five figure markets, the ante-post horse racing markets are an example.  If they didn't reach £15k matched then they will no longer be offered.

I don't understand why markets that attract the sub £2 bot should be culled?  As I've said, the football markets you mention are now 105% with four figures matched on both with two hours before kick off.

People on this thread seem to agree with Betfair by saying you can't beat a 105% market.  That's b0llocks.

Report CLYDEBANK29 August 6, 2018 6:42 PM BST
Going back to the European Swimming Championships in 2010 someone was laying the field to 200% early doors to lose approx £500 each runner and I bet into that.  Perhaps part of the reason the market would be dead this time round.  Takes a lot of work and knowledge to price it up safely and if you have done that work and have that knowledge you don't want to tell the market.  Chciken and egg.  Market dynamics and a dwindling user base ensures the market dies.

These football markets are priced up already and you can effectively get the bet on the same thing, or near as damnit the same thing on other markets.  Imo they are pointless and the bets can just be placed on the busier market that amounts to the same thing.  That said if there is sufficient turnover whats the problem.  But if we look at Hull v Villa I've seen 3 markets with nothing at all matched.  When I'm losing a market that I occoasionally play that probably matches on average £10k to £15k (I've never took much notice) that kind of pisses me off.  Not too much though.
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 6, 2018 6:47 PM BST
And going back to the swimming.  When there was sufficient interest the markets used to get priced to somewhere near 105% to 110%, which is pretty close to 100% when you take away the no hopers that no one bets.  Thats quite competitive when compared to 125% from the bookies.
Report Templeton Peck August 6, 2018 9:42 PM BST
I've been told 105-110% isn't good enough as apparently nobody can win with that level of overround.  Having spent the day backing in 125% markets, I find it incredibly frustrating they're of that mindset.
Report JML August 7, 2018 12:03 AM BST
You can't beat 105% in THOSE two markets.

For any of the prices to be that far wrong there would have to be a serious mistake in "match odds" and/or "O/U 2.5"

It would be much easier to profit if you played those two markets at 100.3% but it's very difficult to beat those wafer thin margins.
Report Templeton Peck August 7, 2018 1:35 PM BST
I'm referring to the swimming markets that were culled. 

Those two football markets are fine.
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 7, 2018 10:25 PM BST
Unbelievable scenes in the swimming today, not picked up by the commentators.  Never seen anything like it in any sport.  Pernille Blume in the womens 100m Freestyle semi finals.   Earlier in the competition she'd got beat in the 50m freestyle by 0.01 seconds, so she took it upon herself to prove that she had what it takes to have won the 50m free, by swimming the first 50m as fast as she could and touching the wall with her hands, instead of a flip turn with your feet, thereby losing almost any chance she had of making the final.  Even more perplexing is that she would have been around evens to win the 100m final had she qualified. 

It's a bit like having a 5 foot putt to win a golf tournament, picking tha ball up and placing it 50 foot away, because you just missed a 50 foot putt at the previous hole and wanted to prove to yourself you could have putted it.
Report cicero August 10, 2018 2:28 AM BST
btw where is the golf major markets gone?????
do u not want me to win ever
Report cicero August 10, 2018 2:29 AM BST
they had top 5,7,8,10 and now 8 gone
wtf that's the one I came in3
Report cicero August 10, 2018 2:33 AM BST
who remembers big 5 v field
winning region
winning margin
Report cicero August 10, 2018 2:37 AM BST
who remembers a time before capitalism went wrong?
Report bingo bongo August 10, 2018 10:36 AM BST
There are markets for most of the European athletics, but strangely not the heptathlon, which is very suited to betting inplay. Plus it gets alot of coverage in the uk.
Report cicero August 10, 2018 12:23 PM BST
hey swimming's up...better late than never
Report cicero August 10, 2018 12:28 PM BST
although I believe it's over.....
Report Templeton Peck August 10, 2018 5:34 PM BST
They had a cull of golf submarkets for the US Open and despite me asking for some they wouldn't load them.  So they're gone for good. They had tight overrounds and decent liquidity.  I refuse to believe this will lead to an increase in profit for them.
Report bettinghelp August 10, 2018 5:41 PM BST
The last several times I've looked for 'To Qualify' markets in football tourneys there's been nothing; these were quite popular. They only put the market up for the Celtic v AEK tie after the first leg.

Most perplexing.
Report cicero August 11, 2018 6:35 PM BST
Asked for the 5000m men final and relays to be added tonight to the athletic eurochamps, no move there...good to see
the swimming that was put up after it had finished is still there... come on bf get it together!
Report cicero August 11, 2018 8:00 PM BST
lazy unreliable and pathetic!!
Report PeteTheBloke August 11, 2018 9:50 PM BST
Premier league outrights severely culled. I can't believe that the tricast market had
lower liquidity than the "top 6" but I'm disappointed it's gone, along with the handicap
bottom, the top and bottom at Christmas, the goalscorer top 4, the relegation treble
and quite a few more besides.

I'm worried that they won't bother with the rest of the Cheltenham markets until after
the shysters have stuck up their ridiculous NRNB offerings.
Report Latalomne August 12, 2018 7:59 AM BST
They've not put up a market for this morning's World Open snooker final and they've not taken players out of the outright that were beaten on Friday.  However you look at it, they are half-arsing it.  There have been quite a few matches this week with over £100k matched....
Report cicero August 12, 2018 5:22 PM BST
I again asked today for athletic markets as they had already put up 3 markets for tonight (randomly..1500m women, pole vault and the

womens 3000m steeplechase) but omitted womens 5000m as well as other field events but most bizarrely the two 100m relays, both of which

the GB team should do very well in....I can only assume monkeys are pressing random buttons as they play with themselves!
Report cicero August 12, 2018 7:08 PM BST
credit were credit is due....markets now up, thank you bf
Report curlywurly August 13, 2018 10:35 AM BST
They are clueless- agree with the new handicap comments.
Completely killing a market, so they can milk it for themselves.
Please sort it out for the nfl, and dont put the handicaps all together, spread them out to keep the interest.
It's so painful.
Thing is the person making the decision probably doesn't even bet, but they can name every player and talk sh1te for england.
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 14, 2018 11:58 AM BST
I have fond memories of the relegation treble market.  Managed to get the better of a bot back in 2015 Cool  Shame though that the bot didn't make the same mistake again in following years Sad
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 14, 2018 12:03 PM BST
TBH I think that market is best introduced in around late March when the picture is somewhat clearer
Report razz August 15, 2018 9:32 AM BST
they've been **** with a lot of mma markets lately. often closing way early and sometimes halfway through a fight leaving positions extremely exposed..
Report razz August 15, 2018 9:32 AM BST
feels like i hear the phrase "Appologies for any inconvenience" at least 3 times each week just from browsing my twitter timeline
Report Templeton Peck August 15, 2018 2:03 PM BST
MMA has always been awful. I've lost count of the number of times in the past I had to desperately try to reach someone - was usually the helpdesk in Australia - to unsuspend markets as they'd always suspend everything at 3am.  Now I'm being told they can only manage the main card fights and all prelims will now be unmanaged.  The exchange is rapidly deteriorating.
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 15, 2018 6:55 PM BST
Been deteriorating for 10 years
Report JML August 16, 2018 8:34 AM BST
Unusual happenings on the Super cup final.

Method of victory market didn't go "in play"(all the other markets went in-play)--- can't remember that ever happening before

It then went "in play" for the first period of extra-time only.

The "To win" market was in-play during the 90mins but not re-opened for the extra-time period-------again never happened before.
Report Latalomne August 16, 2018 10:50 AM BST
Snooker markets for today (admittedly niche, but they put ALL of yesterday's up) total just four, and three of those appear to be for matches that don't even exist, so far as I can see!  I've been told that they won't be putting any others up....  Even though a load of them appear on the BF Live Video schedule....
Report Latalomne August 16, 2018 11:39 AM BST
BTW, the matches are all on BFSB.
Report Templeton Peck August 16, 2018 11:48 AM BST
That is an odd one.  As you say, you can watch them on the exchange but if you click on 'Bet' then you're taken to the Sportsbook.  Culling a lot of markets will certainly benefit the sportsbook so moving mugs from exchange to sportsbook will be a large part of what's going on.
Report Latalomne August 16, 2018 12:09 PM BST
That's the way it looks to me....

My account manager is off this week and there was no-one available for me to talk to when I called.  I just want some clarity.  There's no consistency.  Even though BF is now responsible for generating only a part of my income, I am still planning as much of my time around the schedule as I can, and this just ***** me off, TBH.
Report Latalomne August 16, 2018 2:21 PM BST
And now they are there!
Report Templeton Peck August 16, 2018 2:41 PM BST
I'm awaiting a response from my account manager as well.  I'm aware of their culling project but there's been a significant downturn in performance recently.  Loading of markets, such as these snooker markets, has been all over the place.  Markets going inplay too late or too early too.
Report pablo-fanque August 16, 2018 2:55 PM BST
apparently , ( from what i read on a thread on chit chat , how long will betfair last?? ) betfair are giving 50 PC payers a £500 allowance on their PC each week , which if will be rolled out to every PC payer, is a good start to improving the charges on here .

but if it doesn't get rolled out to everyone , this is not going to work from a customer point of view , where by betfair pick and choose who pays PC depending on how you play/bet , and not as to how much commission you pay/generate . i think it's for mostly layers as they are providing liquidity , but , if i am a backer , aren't i providing liquidity for people who want to lay ?

imo they really need to reevaluate the whole PC thing . charging anyone 40%-60% no matter how they play ( fast pics, bots etc ) can never be right or a good selling point for future wanna be customers .
Report Latalomne August 16, 2018 3:12 PM BST
Indeed there has, TP.  Either do it and do it properly, or let everyone know that you won't be doing it and don't bother.  You can't expect people to sit around for hours waiting for markets to appear or not appear when they should have been up hours previously. 

I've read that, too, PF.  I primarily lay, but I'll gladly back if there is value in doing so.  The problem, as I see it, is one that many of us predicted a long time ago....  It's an ever-decreasing circle.  If no-one is there to match the other side of the bet (whichever side that may be), there is no incentive to put up prices.  Liquidity always was, and still is, king.  BF have been guilty of punishing those who put liquidity into otherwise illiquid markets (PC).  It HAS compounded the problem.  They need to decide whether they want the little fish for themselves (BFSB) or whether they want the Exchange to flourish.
Report Templeton Peck August 16, 2018 3:39 PM BST
And the site goes down. Could see this coming a mile off.

As you say, Latalomne, it's the lack of communication which is unacceptable.  Markets I've seeded for years were just taken down with no notice.  I'd spent months improving spreadsheets, etc and all of a sudden they scrap markets without a word.  No 'will you put more money in the markets?' or 'will you seed to 103% instead of 108%?'  Just pulled them.  I wouldn't even consider doing the necessary work on other markets now as no confidence they won't be pulled with no notice.

Many of us predicted the site was going to suffer as people were forced to move away because of PC and the Sportsbook stealing customers.  Happened more slowly than expected but even the CEO and CFO admit growth is now non-existent with no signs of improvement hence them culling markets and now offering PC allowances and more free bet incentives.
Report Latalomne August 17, 2018 9:45 AM BST
To their credit, this morning's snooker markets appeared about 40 mins ago as I was on a live chat asking if they would appear or would not appear.  The agent didn't get as far as submitting the request, so BF got their of their own volition.  High five!  Will see how long it lasts! 

TP - I am looking to reduce the amount I do anyway, as I grow a business completely unrelated to this, TBH, but you're right, there is no incentive to invest in expanding "your" operations here under the current status quo....  In a lot of ways, I think the damage that has been done away from the main markets is almost irreparable.  There used to be good liquidity across the board, even on the side markets.  Tennis handicaps used to be brilliant, and I'd happily play to 103% on a point-by-point basis while the backers were there.  Then, all of a sudden, they weren't so many in number....  And so the natural inclination was to keep a bit more back for yourself, and it all becomes a death spiral....
Report Templeton Peck August 18, 2018 11:25 AM BST
Same here.  Moved into property the last couple of years and completed on another yesterday.  The tennis handicaps are a great example.  When I first started I'd trade them on a regular basis, that's how liquid they were.  As you say, all of a sudden there was a drop and so they became less viable for trading and so I'd leave and others too which causes prices to become poorer and more to leave.  Probably caused by the PC and then Sportsbook.  Many of us predicted this death spiral yet were mocked.  Betfair then admitted there was a problem and brought in the new format which many of us told them was not fit for purpose.  As ever they ignored us, the market became even worse and now they admit the new format wasn't the solution.

I'd have no PC on any of the submarkets.  That's the way forward.  People are willing to pay 20-60% on markets where they can trade in size they can't anywhere else, scalp, courtside, etc where they're all but guaranteed green but why would someone pay 40% on a pure punt on a side market?  Chances are with these markets you can probably get on somewhere else if you just want a bet and whilst odds might be slightly lower you obviously aren't paying a huge fee if you win.
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 18, 2018 12:57 PM BST
If there was a sudden drop it's more likely it was caused by regulations making it illegal or uneconomic to bet or operate in said country or countries.  It wouldn't suddenly drop because of PC.  PC is a slow burner.  The Sportsbook when it first started was a complete bag of nails too and I totally disgree that someone using the exchange would suddebly switch to the sportsbook. There are and were any number of sportsbooks they could have used and if someone is that lazy they wouldn't be using the exchange in the first place.  Cash out might have played a part, as the cash out options for less liquid markets couldn't be relied upon or were not offered.

I think everybody predicted the reverse snowball and I don't think there is a solution to the problem of dieing liquidity, other than for foreign regulation to expand the userbase.  The premium charge in itself was an admission that they had little confidence in growing the userbase.  If it wasn't then it was a big mistake.
Report pablo-fanque August 18, 2018 3:02 PM BST
picking and choosing which markets are PC exempt doesn't sound right and seems a bit desperate .

just make the PC more fairer across the board to encourage liquidity at every level and market .
Report Templeton Peck August 18, 2018 7:05 PM BST
Pretty much disagree with everything in those two posts.

There was a clear drop off as soon as PC was introduced - which wasn't a slow burner at all, one minute something was profitable over the long run the next minute it wasn't or much less profitable than betting elsewhere (Pinnacle for tennis handicaps an example).

You'd be surprised how many didn't realise the Sportsbook wasn't the exchange.  Plenty of casual users assumed there had just been a redesign.  You type in Betfair and it would take you to the Sportsbook.  Again, there was a clear drop off in submarket volume when it was introduced.

Plenty on here said liquidity would continue to grow. Maybe they were just trolling but there have been plenty of arguments on here over the last few years.

Overseas regulation has been an issue, I'll grant you that.  Although Betfair don't seem to have put much effort into dealing with that.  Just ran away with tail between their legs.  Even ratcheting commission rates right up in some countries.  Short term greed as any CEO will be tempted by.

I'm not sure why it doesn't sound right.  It's clear the submarkets are dying off hence Betfair beginning to cull them.  I see markets being culled where plenty of people are talking about placing a bet - one off bet, not trading, scalping, etc - yet they weren't using Betfair.  Why?  Had the best odds so almost certainly because they didn't want to pay 40%.  I don't think the main target of the PC was the punters having a one-off pre-match bet on a submarket so why not scrap PC on those markets?
Report pablo-fanque August 18, 2018 8:14 PM BST
fair enough TP

should they remove  PC on say "how many corners" in a football match to create liquidity ,  then once the liquidity is back re-introduce PC ?
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 18, 2018 9:24 PM BST
I'll take one market for example.  ManUTD/Chelsea/etc to win both halves.  I used to bet this market between 2009/2011, well actually I used to lay the faves to win both halves.  The price was almost always too short and the backers were mostly £2-£10 backers and the price was clearly not great.  I could easily lay teams for £1k.  on the  No one left because of PC, the backers definitely weren't paying and the margin laying it was such that it just about stayed within the PC boundary, unless you were trading it, but tbh there was never any cash for no and there wasn't really much trading.  Layers didn't leave but backers did and it was gradual rather than sudden.  Now you would be lucky if there was £100 matched and there wouldn't be any profit margin in doing so anyway (unless the match prices were wrong)
 
What happened also was the market slowly corrected itself.  The prices on the faves winning both halves improved, but the number of casuals betting into it reduced.  It had nothing to do with liquidity, nothing to do with bad value (the value got better not worse for the casual) just far less casual players betting on the market.

Removing the PC will have little or no effect.  The damage the PC did to the exchange was not the charge itself, it was the irreparable damage it did to the brand, the joint venture ended with a stab to the back, trust gone, advocacy gone, working together gone, motivation and interest diminished.  It's gone.  It was a marriage where one person had an affair.
Report pablo-fanque August 18, 2018 10:00 PM BST
The damage the PC did to the exchange was not the charge itself, it was the irreparable damage it did to the brand, the joint venture ended with a stab to the back, trust gone, advocacy gone, working together gone, motivation and interest diminished.  It's gone.  It was a marriage where one person had an affair.

that is pretty much what i meant when i said "picking and choosing which markets are PC exempt doesn't sound right and seems a bit desperate" . it just comes across as using people ( customers ) for the benefit of betfair , and once they have what they need ( liquidity ) in the markets they ask you to participate in to create the liquidity , they will go back to charging you 20%-60% for the benefit of helping them out once they don't need you anymore .

The damage the PC did to the exchange was not the charge itself

that may be true , but there are very few who agree with the charge .

from what i was told , PC was meant to be used to help bring in new customers , pay for advertisement , investment in the exchange etc .
i am 99.99% a horse racing player. i have seen no improvements in any field of the horse racing exchange product , the last improvement i can recall was when they streamed the racing  tv pictures through betfair video using flash , which made the pictures about 3 seconds faster than usual . liquidity certainly hasn't improved , and pictures speeds are as slow as ever  , but i have seen and heard more adverts in the last 2 years than i have in the previous 6 .
Report CLYDEBANK29 August 18, 2018 10:26 PM BST
To my knowledge Betfair never release these figures so I'm only guessing.  I know they release overall turnover on the exchange which I believe has remained reasonably static in the post PC period, falling slightly last years (in real terms £1 in 2008 is £1.32 now, so in real terms turnover is a lot less), but I'd guess active users are down 75% and have fallen in each of the last 8 years and continues to fall.
Report Latalomne August 19, 2018 7:52 AM BST
I think the points each of you raise are valid.  I don't believe that PC on its own was the sole reason we find ourselves where we do today.  It was a combination of the factors that each of you has identified (national legislation, BFSB, PC).  The only one of those (really) within PPBF's control is PC (notwithstanding the fact they could decide to close down BFSB; yeah, right!), which HAS, IMHO, exacerbated the problem. 

As I said in my earlier post, I honestly think it would take something extraordinary to reverse the damage that has been done.  Look at how BF's 'competitors' are still struggling to generate their own liquidity.  Once you've got it, you've got to do everything you can to preserve it, since that is the lifeblood of an Exchange.  When BF (& Flutter) came along, the idea was new and exciting.  People believed for the first time ever that they could win without having their accounts closed down.  BF stopped short of that, but they decided instead that they wanted their share.  I've not witnessed it first hand, but others have said that Purple has a similar PC charge if you dare to win too much, too quickly.  Clydebank's final paragraph of his 21:24 post of last night sums it up perfectly.  The bubble was burst and the illusion was revealed.... 

The side-markets definitely need some sort of boost.  No site will ever truly flourish while people have to go elsewhere to get a proportion of their bets matched.  Look at the breadth of markets that 365 offers in-play.  It's almost impossible to believe that anyone bets on half of them, yet they must, otherwise they wouldn't keep sticking them up (and yeah, I'm sure most of the prices are generated by an algorithm, but that's not the point)....  Less markets is not the answer.  Finding ways to attract more money is.  Once the goodwill has gone, though, that doesn't come cheap....

Does BFSB still do Price Boost?  That was the one thing they've done in recent times that gave me a glimmer of hope (I know I was pretty much on my own in that!) that a bit more money might feed through to the Exchange, but I've not heard anything about it for an age....  I know it was only offered on a very limited number of markets....
Report Gin August 19, 2018 9:45 AM BST
"I've not witnessed it first hand, but others have said that Purple has a similar PC charge if you dare to win too much, too quickly."


I can confirm this - they put me on a permanent 10% commission - which means that I end up paying PC like percentages of overall winnings.
Report Latalomne August 19, 2018 9:53 AM BST
Maybe it IS the only way the exchange model is viable in the long-term?

As an aside, with 8 minutes to go, there are no snooker markets up for today, despite my requesting them before 0800 this morning and despite the fact the fixtures have been known for at least days, if not weeks....
Report siwaadupa August 19, 2018 11:38 AM BST
-X matching,
-PC,
-Sportsbook(Corcoran as CEO)
-Bots,
-Gambling Commission protecting their business.
-"Winners are not welcome" vibe on bf.
- bookies limiting accoounts
- millions of meaningless submarkets, and handicaps
All this have negative impact to casual user!
They made me poorer without any doubts killing the beauty idea.
Im on my own feet now, being just ocassional user of bf nowadays. I miss to what was happening on tennis. That was real trading!. Now its just following trackers which is extremely boring.
No change is coming surely next years. Shark vs shark now.  Do founders regret what they have done to us selling their business?
Report Latalomne August 19, 2018 12:09 PM BST
Snooker markets starting to appear now....  Plain  Better late than never, I suppose....  Plain
Report cragihol August 20, 2018 11:27 AM BST
Have just read this totally agree with earlier comments about the rolling handicap and total points markets have virtually killed basketball days of getting 1.1or 1.02 are gone and hence incentive to use bf above any other fixed odds site.  I too have endlessly dm ed on Twitter about this but get the same we do t need to explain answer and we are not changing it.  In addition the lack of top batsman markets on cricket live games now is my frustration . Also no test match end market which needs virtually no management.  I too ask for hockey.  It seems to be an attempt to make things easier and use less staff and match things up with the sports book. It’s all very sad and disappointing and I creibly frustrating that no one seems to w@nt to listen,  I even asked for a bosses or manage,ent email to express my concerns too and was told I was not able to have one
Report cragihol August 20, 2018 11:27 AM BST
Have just read this totally agree with earlier comments about the rolling handicap and total points markets have virtually killed basketball days of getting 1.1or 1.02 are gone and hence incentive to use bf above any other fixed odds site.  I too have endlessly dm ed on Twitter about this but get the same we do t need to explain answer and we are not changing it.  In addition the lack of top batsman markets on cricket live games now is my frustration . Also no test match end market which needs virtually no management.  I too ask for hockey.  It seems to be an attempt to make things easier and use less staff and match things up with the sports book. It’s all very sad and disappointing and I creibly frustrating that no one seems to w@nt to listen,  I even asked for a bosses or manage,ent email to express my concerns too and was told I was not able to have one
Report longbridge August 21, 2018 2:28 PM BST
@siwaadupa

"X matching....all this have negative impact to casual user!"

How does cross-matching have a negative impact on the casual user?  I can get it has an impact on some sophisticated users who used to take the overbroke % out of the market when casual users didn't realise that the bet they were asking for was already available as a combination of other bets, but the casual users get better prices from the cross-matcher than they'd otherwise find, surely?
Report Templeton Peck August 21, 2018 9:06 PM BST
Site down again.  Turns out they've moved virtually all operations to Cluj in Romania and hardly any staff made the move. So they lose a lot of long-term staff when they merged and moved to Dublin/Malta and now done it again.

Sent some guys over to teach the new guys how everything works but as we can see it's been an abject failure.  Didn't go down well internally either as the communication to staff has been no better than to customers.
Report Latalomne August 22, 2018 8:16 AM BST
Is that right, TP?  Is that just for the Exchange?
Report Templeton Peck August 22, 2018 8:29 AM BST
Not sure if it's just for the exchange or not.  The Times did report on it a few months back but don't think anyone quite realised what it meant at the time.  I've been told over 90% of those given the opportunity to move to Romania turned it down.  https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/redundancy-or-romania-bookmaker-asks-work...
Report JML August 22, 2018 9:14 AM BST
for those unable to access the site---


Redundancy or Romania, bookmaker asks workers



Paddy Power Betfair is moving jobs from its corporate headquarters in Dublin to Romania as part of a shake-up at the bookmaker.

In the past few weeks, the company has been offering employees at its Clonskeagh base the option of moving to Cluj in the north of Romania or redundancy.

The exact number of redundancies is unclear but sources indicated yesterday that at least 50 roles could be cut from its Dublin operations, while another said that more than 100 staff had been given the choice of moving to Romania.

It is understood that administration roles associated with the group’s betting exchange, which allows gamblers to set their own odds, as well as its sportsbook and football markets are being moved from Dublin. Administration roles relating to the group’s horse racing division will probably stay in Dublin.

A spokesman confirmed the redundancy offer yesterday but declined to comment on the number of employees affected by the relocation plans.

“Paddy Power Betfair last year combined its risk, trading and exchange functions into a central division in Dublin. Following internal consultation, a decision was taken to relocate a number of administrative-focused trading and settlement roles, with Dublin staff focusing on specialist trading, compiling and analysis that made better use of the experience available.

“This decision has resulted in some redundancies where relocation was not an option, but it has enabled a number of Dublin staff who were employed in administrative functions to take up rewarding specialist trading roles.”

Paddy Power Betfair employs 1,200 at its Dublin headquarters. The spokesman said the group was recruiting for more than 300 roles across the business, of which 50 were in Ireland.

The group reported a 13 per cent jump in revenue to £1.75 billion, driven by 16 per cent growth in sports revenue last year.

Peter Jackson, the company’s chief executive, has overhauled much of the group’s management team since taking control in January. A number of senior executives have left the business, most recently Alex Gersh, the chief financial officer, who quit in March. He followed Cormac Barry, head of the Australian business.

The Times revealed last week that Stewart Kenny, one of the founders of Paddy Power, had resigned over the failure of senior management properly to tackle problem gambling.
Report Latalomne August 22, 2018 9:23 AM BST
Cheers, both. 

Guess we'll never know whether the two periods of downtime are connected or not.  Does seem a bit of a coincidence that it has happened when they have been tinkering with the site again (adding BFSP returns to additional place markets)....    It was ever thus....
Report bettinghelp August 23, 2018 11:33 AM BST
Latalomne 22 Aug 18 09:23

Guess we'll never know whether the two periods of downtime are connected or not.

It would appear not.

"Last week’s issue was caused by a routing problem on our infrastructure. When we restarted the routing device we were able to bring the site back up. A fix has been released to prevent this happening again.
Last night was triggered by an issue in our Feeds platform system. It locked up our events tables, which in turn stopped our market manager system from being able to manage our in-play markets. As such, we had to disable betting and splash the site until this lock up was resolved."
Report Latalomne August 23, 2018 11:46 AM BST
Good info, Bettinghelp.  Thanks!
Report cicero August 28, 2018 2:54 AM BST
post again, bedamned the limelight.....been on holiday last 2 weeks

Switzerland not purpleorothers...talked to a big wig programmer who likes a bet...he wins and cant understand why


no wikibet

betfair is the original wikibet...sadly gone wrong
Report cicero August 28, 2018 3:06 AM BST
here's a fix

start a subsite before I convince someone....I will

set up own market section (template app) Add rules from choices...caveat emptor please read rules

as always there will be lack of faith but if you (betfair) arbitrate this *even though you have been managed badly in arbitration"

you currently still are(our) set as the only bet     fair medium

once you lose this....aw
Report cicero August 28, 2018 3:21 AM BST
for you pc people.... I said nazinotjew..you know who you are

I have a solution to avoiding pc


stop the greed and work out the funds you lose from pc and give it back to the site with clearly losing prices
this way people who use the site will benefit not our pig masters....
Report PeteTheBloke August 31, 2018 6:14 PM BST
Cicero was famed for his eloquence
Report cicero September 1, 2018 2:32 PM BST
old roman saying
the grander the house the more vicious the guard dog...
Report PeteTheBloke September 1, 2018 8:16 PM BST
LaughLaughLaugh
Report cicero September 6, 2018 2:27 PM BST
at least 1 of these every day in the how far to win by markets in horse racing...todays balls up 1420 salisbury

*****
To win by up to + includ 2.25L

To win by 2.75L or more

Cap Francais not to win
******

Everyday a mistake, how hard is it to get this correct...i cant play the market because i dont know how they will settle it????
Report Just Checking September 6, 2018 6:40 PM BST
It could be worse, you can be thankful the problem hasn't become acute

Wink
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