Liquidity is really drying up now.

The exchange was being run into the ground some time before PP got involved.

I honestly believe that successive management teams here have failed to understand the Exchange. 

As has been said before, I think there are various elements that have contributed to where we are today (PC, markets being closed down, BFSP, PPBF etc).  The trouble is that snowball effects work going forward, but also in reverse, as we're experiencing on more and more sports/markets now...

BFSB not SP!

You have bookmaking people in charge these days and it isn't in their interest to support the exchange.
There are still many punters out there who have no idea about exchange betting.

It's just possible that the departure of 8r30n c0rc0r@n might be enabling the shackles to be lifted from the exchange. There's been the 2% commission on Premier League match odds markets in Aug & Sept, and yesterday morning, out of the blue, I got the following e-mail:

I am writing to let you know I have put your commission rate down to 2% on all horse racing markets for 2 weeks. I hope you make the most of this decreased commission rate

I'm currently on 3.4%, and most of my betting is already on UK horse racing. So it looks like they genuinely want to explore the effects of lower commission. Now that the company is no longer ruled by a bookmaker determined to destroy the exchange, they seem at last to be able to acknowledge that the sky-high commission is what's been holding it back.

A permanent fixed rate of 2% for all in-running horse racing bets would help boost dwindling liquidity and encourage new players to get involved.

The next step for Betfair would be more job losses.Which is sad to say the least.

A friend of mine was using the Sportsbook on his mobile the other day, I said to him why not use the Exchange and he said because my bet won't get matched.
He had £50 on a horse and as he backed it he said wow I've just had a price boost.

I can only imagine that my friend who is in his 60s is just too scared to use the exchange and needs educating. Something I will do next time I see him.

The other problem is all these newbies that keep getting these price boosts think it's great but in truth they are just being mugged off.

1 more thing, I doubt the Sportsbook money is going back into the exchange as the other day I come across a Sportsbook price of 1.25 when it was 1.33 on the exchange on a main cricket market with 000s either side. I tried to see how much I could get on with the SB but it was just peanuts. They should be letting me have as much on as I like as they could trade out with absolute zero risk. I'm so happy i'm not a share holder.

And the funniest one is you want to place a bet on one of the side markets on the exchange only to find no money available. Go to the same market on on the Sportsbook and type in £20 @ 11/10 only for a response from the Sportsbook to say that i'm restricted to 0.90p and that I should try the Exchange.  I would but I can't even get 0.50p on the exchange.

It get's even dafter than that, whizz kids. Try dutching a race on the sportsbook to give them a free tenner. They simply say 'no thanks mate we don't want it'.

Oct 4, 2017 -- 11:43AM, mouse muldoon wrote:

It get's even dafter than that, whizz kids. Try dutching a race on the sportsbook to give them a free tenner. They simply say 'no thanks mate we don't want it'.

I know, it's truly unbelievable

It's like going to a Bangkok market trying to barter for a T-shirt and the vendor starts with 150Baht and I say 200Baht only for vendor to tell me to piss off.

It's like going to a Bangkok market and trying to barter for a woman. The vendor starts with 1500Baht only for me to say 2000Baht, With that the vendor tells me to piss off.

What kind of company turns down free money??

testing

Not only that this forum is a mess when it comes to posting.

@Jack Bauer 24:
A permanent fixed rate of 2% for all in-running horse racing bets would help boost dwindling liquidity and encourage new players to get involved.


It's the non-permanent part of this two-week offer of 2% commission which is the problem. I'm not prepared to raise my staking, or place more bets, for just 2 weeks, only to find it happens to coincide with a fortnight in which I couldn't pick a winner to save my life.

If they reduced the commission to 2% permanently, then I'd really get stuck in. It would be life-changing. But they haven't, so I won't. And no doubt the report back will therefore be that there's no point in reducing commission rates, because there was no evidence it boosts turnover.

Exactly, they just don't seem to understand these things.

Just had 11 consecutive 1 cent bets on money I put up in the Aus Syria soccer match.

Is it not the £2, £5 and £10 punters we need for in running jack? Do they care if they're 2% or 5%?

All extra liquidity is welcome and as screaming has pointed out, many current players would increase their stakes and turnover if commission was permanently fixed at 2%. If they could manage to reduce picture delays at the same time then in-running could reach its full potential.

I remember before about 2008 the spread used to be very tight.Unlike today where you could driver a London double Decker bus sideways through the spread.It's that wide.
JUst goes to show how hard it is to actually get a bet on.So sad those days of tight spreads have gone where it attracted just about all forms of people to Betfair.

In 2005 all you young punters.There was an American Track called Great Lakes Downs or GLD as we called it back then.
With say 10 minutes to post there was about $300,000 matched on Betfair with super tight spreads and about $1000 matched on the oncourse GLD Tote.
Great days so easy to trade and gamble away before the PC charge took over.

The USA racing died on here a long time ago. If your figures are correct that is more than most UK races have matched these days at 10 minutes from post time. I don't put it all down to the premium charge by any means but I think Betfair needs to take drastic action if they genuinely want exchange betting on horse racing to do anything other than totally collapse in the next few years.

Great Lakes Downs USA at that time wasn't your average track at that time.Most other tracks much less was matched but
the spreads were always  tight.
Great Lakes Downs was a Bull Ring track were the horses are constantly running around a bend and heavily favoured front runners.
My point is when Betfair is Bet  Fair  to all punters then then this acts as a catalyst for very liquid markets.
Just wondered whatever happened to the Betfair revolution and winners welcome and sharp minds betfair?
Hope somehow, they are able to save the Betting Exchange.

As ever Cricket Holding Its End up.........Pakistan v Lanka not even 1/2 way through day 1 and already 9 mill matched!

If India ever legalises a betting exchange, bf is toast.

I used to play on a regular basis at Great Lakes Downs and there was indeed a lot of liquidity at that track in those days. As for these days it seems that most complaints are from punters who wish to bet many hours before the off but you can get more or less what you want on 5 minutes before the off. Great Lakes Downs was no different in those days as all the action there was in the last 15 minutes or so.

You can have more or less what you want on as long as all or most of the following are correct -

What you want on is less than a monkey (and that is being generous)
You aren't trying to back or lay something that isn't right at the head of the market.
You don't mind moving the price a bit and taking below the racecourse show if you happen to want to back something strong in the market.
You don't want to bet in any other market than the win market.
You are betting in the main meeting of the day.
There isn't a raceclash.

And the above still only applies to 2/3 minutes or less before the off.

Barton, no 4 figure bets then?  You know full well that is not true and I don't know why you keep repeating it.

Here's an example
Fontwell under 5 mins til the off totals matched
Win market 51k
Place market 6.8k
Each way 714 quid!
2 place market 26 English pounds.

Bearing in mind that these amounts actually count both a back and a lay you can see how much money is being matched.
You think people can get a four figure bet on without smashing up the price?
Seriously?
You should know full well that is not the case. So why do you keep repeating statements like "you can get more or less what you want on 5 minutes before the off"
It is laughable.

You can have more or less what you want on as long as all or most of the following are correct -

What you want on is less than a monkey (and that is being generous)






You found a race at Fontwell on a crowded Saturday afternoon to try and prove your point when 4 figure bets were available on all the preceding meetings.

Keep trying with bookmakers then barton and the best of luck to you as you will certainly need it.

I don't bet with bookmakers.
My comments on the falling liquidity on here are still valid.
I picked that example because it was the first race lined up after I read your post. It is not isolated and you will see pathetic liquidity away from the head of the market in most races at most meetings today.
Saturday crowding is a factor but nonetheless it is declining markedly.

Liquidity has certainly fallen and certain meetings on certain days have suffered badly. We just need to adapt to the changing circumstances and stop moaning about bookmakers especially. I started backing in the 1960s and it was a damned sight harder back then that it is now.

A £12k class 2 handicap starts at Redcar in just over 2 hours. The two best 'available to lay' boxes for the front 4 in the market contain the following stakes:

£7  £2
£81 £9
£4  £2
£17 £3

It's as bad now as I've ever seen it.

Betting on here hours before the off has been a waste of time for years now. You need to be betting 5 or 10 minutes before the off.

There is a Group One race in 3 minutes time.
If I wanted a grand in the place market on any other horse than the fav without moving the price, would I get it?
A Group One.

Doubtful in the place market.

You would only get a grand on horses other than the fav in a Classic with no more than 7 runners in the place market nowadays. And not always either.

10 years ago you would have been able to get several grand on anything to place in a race like this so close to the off, bar the rags which you would have probably been able to get a grand on. For me, the exchange is in a vicious circle now because people are aware it is hard to get a bet on. There markets are chronically weak and often resemble what Wolverhampton used to look like at 9pm on a Saturday night (the first UK meetings where I noticed poor liquidty, yo yoing prices and gaps in the markets). It puts people off. Not that I have a solution obviously!

Another example. I know this is an Irish race (on as you correctly say a busy Saturday) but the 2.50 Fairyhouse is three minutes from the scheduled off time.
Totals
Win market 19k
Place market 8k
Each way 71 quid!
3 place 500 quid
5 place 550 quid

Races that no one can get a bet on the exchange on.

Lol. The place market in an earlier irish race was 15k in total, pre and inrunning. There's picture issues with irish racing at the moment which lessens in running interest for lots of players.

Liquidity was bloody good at Wolves on a Saturday night and is still pretty fair. Saturday afternoons are a joke with races going off every 5 minutes and that so called Group 1 was just another race to most people. I hardly ever bother on Saturday afternoons these days and they remind me of Bank Holidays in the 60s and 70s with 15 meetings going off.

Apart from anything else betfair is now run mostly by bookmaker people who are only really interested in their Sportsbook and Casino rubbish. The exchange is not promoted like it it used to be and many punters don't even know what an exchange is or how to access it.

Punters such as yourself hardly ever bothering on what could be considered the flagship day of the week for racing really illustrates one of the problems, that of Saturday cramming. And you are right that a lot of punters haven't been guided towards the exchange and don't know how it is.
Those remaining won't adapt to a long term decline in liqudity though, they will just give up.

It's worse for me today in that I have no football to watch this afternoon. I shall just have to sit here and wait for the meeting at Wolves tonight.

Will watch the Superleague Grand Final tonight but will be switching over for the odd race at Wolves.

Barton has got it just about spot on .
People should just remember this.Betfair sent everyone a letter
who were forced to pay the PC charge stating that the money taken from the customer
would be used to advertise the exchange and bring in new customers thus increasing liquidity.
If as many believe that the liquidity is not increasing then we should question whether or not the PC charge
should be reduced or scrapped as it is NOT achieving its core aim of increasing liquidity.
Betfair increased the charge 20%  40%  60% and it still doesn't work!!!

It's NOT the Premium Charge. That's just piddling amounts taken from people who are still in profit despite it.

It's the commission rate which has destroyed the exchange.

I'm on 3.4%. To get down to that, I have to provide quite a bit of liquidity. My reward? £12,480 of commission paid per year. In other words, if my betting breaks even, I have to pay £12,480 for the privilege.

Just get your head around that. As a punter you're shrewd enough to marginally beat the odds over the course of a year. With a bookmaker, at the end of it you'd be a few hundred quid up and looking forward to resuming the battle the following year.

With Betfair you're £12,480 DOWN. You've lost £12,480 in cold blood, not far off a year's average take-home pay. You can't carry on the next year, even if you want to.

And that's where and why the liquidity has disappeared.

That's just piddling amounts taken from people who are still in profit despite it

if it's piddling ammounts, why are they persevering with the extortionate charge that is so detrimental to the exchange ?

as for the 12k you have paid in charges to break even. i doubt you would be breaking even at bookmakers prices , so it's all relevant .

you currently pay £3:40 for every £100 you win and you think that's high ?

for the ability to lay , trade , bet in running, back to lay, lay to back, green up , or how ever you want to play the betfair game, the 3.4% is worth it imo

i pay 40% for the privilege , and you're moaning about 3.4 %

FFS

A punter on 3.4% who wins £12,000 in a year on here will be paying about £13,000 in commission. That is over 100%. He pays more commission than he wins. It's why he can't then go on providing liquidity. Paying just 40%, as Premium Chargers do, would be Christmas come early.

And a punter who wins nothing, zero, zilch, pays over 12 grand a year for the privilege.

And a punter who loses £12,000 in a year pays £12,000 in commission on top of that, thereby doubling his loss to £24,000.

(Regarding bookmaker prices, there are thousands and thousands of punters who win betting at bookmaker prices on bookmaker terms; it's why bookmakers devote so much energy to stopping them and punters go to such lengths to get around them.)

i understand what you are saying that commission eats your profit , simply backing every favourite blind you will lose about 2% ROI , but could be in profit depending on your commission rate , but the point i am making is that 9 times out of 10 , you will be getting a price on here near the off ( or at the off betfair SP v SP ) that is more than 3.4% higher than a bookmakers odds .

i understand many people can win long term at bookmakers odds, but they can't get on , or get the ammounts they want on at said price .

but , come back to this point SFBTW - if the PC generates piddling amounts, why are they persevering with the extortionate charge that is so detrimental to the exchange ?

traders, layers, backers , bots, whatever - all create liquidity in the market for others to play against . the more people that leave because the Premium Charge makes it no longer worth their while, the less liquidity , so the more other people can't get the amounts they want on at certain prices, and so the merry go round of dwindling liquidity will continue .

when you are backing a horse at 6.2 for £333 , do you care who is on the other side, or do you just want your money on at said price ?

this site worked better when you were actually betting against real people in real time -that was it's attraction  . Now it's just a computerised betting terminal

PC hammers the green-market boys. If you win £20,000 a year from green markets, you pay £1,000 in commission
because you'll be pushed to maintain a discount for more than a few days at a time. PC means that BF
can 22.5% i.e. an extra £3500.

If a decent proportion of the green-market boys are field layers, then it's going to affect liquidity because
they have to look for other strategies - after all, they can only rely on a couple of percent at best.

I've heard of people paying 10 or 20 grand a week in PC it's not piddling amounts. And anyone on 40/50/60 is going to have bets elsewhere if they can. If I ran Betfair I would lament every single penny that was bet elsewhere that could be bet here,,,

yeah but money that would be otherwise won by the 50%rs that play here  will be one by  the next tier down - the 20%s to start with until they hit the next level and so on .

It's not like their winning generates 'money to win' like in everyday business ,their liqiudity is smart money that stays in their pocket (balance) the whole time - that is a different scenario

won£ *

Listed race at Muss. Under a minute to the scheduled off time.
Win market 192k
Place 27.5k
4 places 7k
2 places 890 quid.

Another prime example of the shocking decline of racing betting on the exchange.

I think its hard for everybody to understand that there will NEVER be a good times for exchange again here. 75% of PP+Betfair is sportsbook. Not many mentioned thgt mobile bets that are redirected to Sportsbook. Telephone betting, to place an exchange bet- you need to wait to option 5(after casinos, sportsbook, arcade, general betting enquiries). The only hope is Smark3ts with 2% commission killing everybody around. If there is place for exchange wit x matching model then its only on very low commission. Lack of casual punters is painful. I Waited 15 minutes with my lay 200 pounds (best price !)on Ukraine- Croatia(big game to World Cup Qualif) match odds market game at half time and never get matched! In old days I would have been. Breon put your bets to exchange and good luck being matched!

No, it is quite easy to understand. Betfair is leaving the exchange to slowly rot whilst promoting the sportsbook, poker, exchange games etc. The only hope isn't the feeble opposition, it is the exchange taking off in new world markets. I can't see it happening though.

Entirely predictable considering the exchange was a big threat to the bookmaking industry. Now that the management here has changed It is becoming increasingly difficult as they promote their own rubbish. Unfortunately the original management of betfair had departed by the time internet phone betting had become established and a great opportunity was missed. Capitalism was never going to allow the exchange to take their customers away from them.

If only Richard Koch and CVC had been successful in taking Betfair private again in 2013 - things could have been very different:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/leisure/10094720/Betfair-bid-looked-an-odds-on-cert-so-how-did-it-fail.html


So he advocated cutting customer numbers to focus on the big fish, not the minnows. That would have allowed a drastic cut to the annual marketing budget – from £90m-£100m to just £20m – as Betfair stopped trying to lure tiddlers interested only in £10 free bets. “You have to focus on the core customers and provide new products for them,” he says.

Oct 5, 2017 -- 1:18PM, pmbets wrote:

In 2005 all you young punters.There was an American Track called Great Lakes Downs or GLD as we called it back then.With say 10 minutes to post there was about $300,000 matched on Betfair with super tight spreads and about $1000 matched on the oncourse GLD Tote.Great days so easy to trade and gamble away before the PC charge took over.

they were the days paying 4% commission so that you could bash away at most markets, snowballing the betfair liquidity !! I even used to have friends around and we would punt on the American racing all night !! unfortunately P/C destroyed the very essence off reinvesting winnings into other markets, creating the snowball affect. Consequently many traders pulled back and concentrated on their profitable markets and the liquidity either stagnated or declined. The only surviving market is cricket where you can now obtain great value

I would like to see a  market which is split  (one  with bots ,one without)  so that way the bots can't automatically  react to a price offered  - this way the buyer/seller can get the best automatic price  whether than be from the bot or manual layer .

at the moment it's a frustrating mess ,offering very little value to the  punter .

Will ending the hated PC winners tax halt the freefall of the Betfair share price?
Surely with the CEO now gone someone is going to have to come in and save the shareholders.
Otherwise  people will ask 'how low can it go'.

Sportsbook a far far bigger issue than the premium charge.
Don't hold your breath waiting for improvements. Hasn't yet hit rock bottom.

Shutting the door on nearly all non-UK customers is not helping the liquidity either.

According to Betfair's own Q3 update revenue is only down by 5%

Sportsbook  stakes  were  up  10%, but  sportsbook  revenue  was  down  2%  due  to  a  0.8  percentage  point  decrease in the sportsbook margin. The decrease in the margin was driven by favourable sports results in the comparative period and continued investment in our customer proposition. The sportsbook margin this year of 6.6% was in line with our expectations for the quarter.Exchange  revenue  was  in  line  with  our  expectations  and  was  down  5%  year  on  year due  to a  strong comparative period, which benefitted from Euro 2016 and exceptional revenue from high value customers.

2017 Q3 Update says only a 5% drop

Sportsbook  stakes  were  up  10%, but  sportsbook  revenue  was  down  2%  due  to  a  0.8  percentage  point  decrease in the sportsbook margin. The decrease in the margin was driven by favourable sports results in the comparative period and continued investment in our customer proposition. The sportsbook margin this year of 6.6% was in line with our expectations for the quarter.Exchange  revenue  was  in  line  with  our  expectations  and  was  down  5%  year  on  year due  to a  strong comparative period, which benefitted from Euro 2016 and exceptional revenue from high value customers.

I tried posting the Q3 udate showing a 5% drop but keeps rejecting for soe reason

The exchange numbers would be a lot worse without cricket, which continues to trade very big amounts.

Would the high cricket figures be mostly down to traders rather than punters?

I might be wrong, but alot of the cricket money is from india/pakistan/asia bookmakers arbing/hedging. (?)

If BF had a rival in the east that was legal (which i presume for religious reasons are banned) then there would be a serious drop in the cricket liquidity - and the knock on effect throughout the exchange would be massive.

any wiser folks out there??

How do these asian customers pass KYC checks?

I might be wrong, but alot of the cricket money is from india/pakistan/asia bookmakers arbing/hedging. (?)

You are correct. Also a lot of outright punting.

If you are an Indian bookie and 80%+ of your customers back India, and it's the same for every other bookie. Hedging opportunities are limited.

Sports betting is just starting to be legalized in India. Although, illegal betting is widespread and fines are rare and very small, less than $10. At some point I expect we will see an Indian betting exchange.

Nov 2, 2017 -- 4:35PM, pxb wrote:

Sports betting is just starting to be legalized in India. Although, illegal betting is widespread and fines are rare and very small, less than $10. At some point I expect we will see an Indian betting exchange.

Draft legislation for sports betting in India is being based on the UK gambling laws which was being drawn up back in July with a 2 year window to complete !!

This is something that I alluded to before and I've just read it in relation to something else.  Namely that psychological studies show that people give up when the goal is nearly unattainable.  This is the biggest single reason why the exchange is suffering.  It has become a victim of it's own success.

Obviously the PC is part of that, but I think it just accelerated the natural cycle of the product.  I think Betfair suspected that and the PC and the Sportsbook, were to do with getting the most out of it while you can, whilst also establishing the company's long term safety with the Sportsbook.

as for the 12k you have paid in charges to break even. i doubt you would be breaking even at bookmakers prices , so it's all relevant .

you currently pay £3:40 for every £100 you win and you think that's high ?

Exactly. Down the bookies you are paying a much higher tariff. I'd like to see those who make it pay on here make it pay down betting purely against a bookmaker... might be in for a rude awakening

btw people who are moaning about paying premium charges... who do you think is losing to you? the man in the sky? people who have possibly lost their house, their friends... their marriages... where do you think that money comes from that you win?

I fail to see what relevance someone losing their house as to Premium Charges? They could just as easily be matched against a non pc payer.

We were told PC charges were brought in as too many players were draining money out of the system too quickly. PC has hardly addressed that other than put the money directly into Betfair's pockets with no risk to them, not like they've given any of it back to , or helped, those losing players have they?

£620 in PC this week, happy new year too!! Sickening

not seen any adverts for the exchange lately. Or any publicity when there was a huge priced winner on the racing in Ireland. A few people backed it at 1000 and BF should be shouting it from the rooftops. PP really do have us by the short and curlies. No ambition to improve the exchange and no intention to sell to anyone who might do a better job. Grim year ahead im0

Click on the FA Cup tab and take a look at the liquidity. Liverpool v Everton £3,926 matched on a game which kicks off in under 48 hours, a BBC televised game with potential for team news related odds movement and with just two EPL games tonight and tomorrow worthy of any other interest.

Liquidity on the Saturday games is laughable.

@TheFear

"A few people backed it at 1000 and BF should be shouting it from the rooftops"

Hard to do surely - anyone who understands the Exchange concept BF are trying to sell them will work out that if someone has won £10k putting a tenner on a 1000 shot, some other chump is down £10k?

can't agree with you mate, to be honest. I would look at it as wow I could win £10,000 just for a tenner risk. Or I'd be thinking how much have these lads made who can afford to lose £10k. I'll have a bit of that. "Most" people who gamble surely aren't worrying about who's on the receiving end?

""Most" people who gamble surely aren't worrying about who's on the receiving end?"

I guess not, 'cos for most people it's a bookie.

But people new to the Exchange anyway seem to be cautious of laying as they have some fear their downside is unlimited (at least, that's the reaction I get when I try to get my mates away from the books and onto here).  So if they work out that an Exchange laying punter just lost £10k, won't that make them more nervous?

I think it's easier to promote something like better SPs at Cheltenham, as there all that's happening is the Exchange backer and layer are each taking a chunk out of the fat bookies' margin to both get better value.

Haven't seen any BF Exchange ads for a while, but those I have seen have been during football matches, and I don't watch those for fun!

DIE LINKE
03 Jan 18 20:42
Joined: 26 Jun 03
| Topic/replies: 6,910 | Blogger: DIE LINKE's blog
Click on the FA Cup tab and take a look at the liquidity. Liverpool v Everton £3,926 matched on a game which kicks off in under 48 hours, a BBC televised game with potential for team news related odds movement and with just two EPL games tonight and tomorrow worthy of any other interest.

Liquidity on the Saturday games is laughable.


Been venturing into the footbll markets recently and the liquidity is appalling these days, I'm sure it used to be much better. There's just no money on the exchange until about the hour before kick off and even then it's really poor. It's no wonder people would rather bet with a bookie. Hard to pinpoint exactly why the markets are so dire but I guess lack of advertising, x-matching means no one can be bothered to make a book only for Betfair to use their risk and prices to front run them but the huge number of markets can't be helping as most of them only attract pennies and doubt exchange punters use them. I guess theyre there mainly for betfair to hedge what little liability they may take on them from the sportsbook.

continuing the 2% on premiership is a clear sign

With bookies betting to under 102% on the win market Betfair can't really match it with charging 5%, even   at 2%, with all the various bookies odds, it's gonna be hard for them to be best price especially with the market not picking up til an hour before the off. Plus for PC payers it's got to be a last resort to actually straight bet on Betfair.

An hour, don't you mean 2 or 3 minutes?

you can get caught out with football, sometimes they start 10 minutes earlier than shown and other times it can be about half an hour late.

There are so many markets it's crazy, corners/cards/draw no bet/+1,2,3 goals spreads things too thin

Betfair like these empty markets as it allows the unscrupulous to set traps, so big profits and premium charge.

While bemoaning BF liquidity falling off a cliff, how is liquidity for horseracing oncourse bookies?

As for internet bookies, I heard BET365 grew from one room to turning over hundreds of millions of pounds per annum.

Tell you what I'm noticing, even as a two quidder. I'll often look through the coupon rejecting games half an hour before kick-off because the amounts matched aren't even enough for me. Then I'll glance through the games being played and I'm in there trading after ten or fifteen minutes of play.

With smaller markets the money is definitely in the inplay.

The in-play markets for some of the less popular sports (snooker, rugby) have changed a lot in recent weeks, IMHO.  There is A LOT more money looking to take on the player/team in a strong position than there used to be.  It doesn't necessarily seem to be informed (prices that are being offered are often considerably above market rate), rather someone with fairly deep pockets has decided they're going to try to be a trader.  There's such a dearth of backer money that their very generous offers are not always being accommodated, and it's making it extremely difficult to trade at the correct prices. 

"Grow a pair, then" responses expected and welcomed. 

I'm talking about football and it's not a problem here.

I layed a couple of horses in yesterday’s Hexham 1-45 place market at Betfair SP. (yes it was me) There were 5 runners, my horses were unplaced with no return.  There is no record of the market in the historical data.  Is this an example of low liquidity on secondary markets discussed on this thread?

lay low, i believe there was a problem with this market

check out the "Did you play in The Hexham 1.45 "place only" market?" on the horse racing forum

Thanks Pablo, that clears it up. It seems that the cancellation of my Lays had nothing to do with liquidity.