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budd
18 Jun 16 18:26
Joined:
Date Joined: 03 Sep 10
| Topic/replies: 2 | Blogger: budd's blog
Hi,

I know to some of you this will be obvious, but I was trying to figure out the profit on the Premium charges page.

The lifetime gross profit and loss at the top of the page, is that actually how much someone has made or is that the amount they have made before betfair have taken all their taxes?

If it isn't the actual amount Ive made which numbers would you subtract to get an accurate representation of your lifetime profit or loss?

Thanks in advance.
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Report Ghetto Joe June 18, 2016 7:30 PM BST
The gross is the amount you've won before any commission or other charges.

You can't get a true figure of your actual net from that page as Betfair's idea of commission is different to what you've actually paid. They like to use a combination of commission paid and implied commission from losses as it allows them to charge another possible 2.5% on top of the quoted PC charges of 20%,40%,50% & 60%.

So either email them and they'll send you a complete histry of your betting and charges or use the Gross profit & loss less Total Charges for a very rough idea.
Report stu June 19, 2016 9:48 AM BST
Out of interest, would that be a complete history or summaries of some sort I'd presume more likely (as the actual history would be huge!)
Report budd June 19, 2016 4:08 PM BST
thanks, what email should I use?
Report Coachbuster June 19, 2016 5:06 PM BST
the lifetime figure is BEFORE taxes and comms
Report Gin June 20, 2016 8:29 AM BST
budd - If you want a rough idea of your overall profit/loss, go to the payments > withdrawl page. There you will see a "net deposits" figure which is the amount you have deposited minus the amount withdrawn. Take away your current balance and the number left is your P/L (if it is a minus number then you are in profit wheras a positive number shows your loss).

stu - I haven't had a history report from Betfair for about 10 years but the last one that I had listed every single bet placed.
Report Deltâ June 20, 2016 9:24 AM BST
Gin, what about when you have changed card/expired etc ..
Report Gin June 20, 2016 9:51 AM BST
I didn't think of that Delta - I have used the same card since day one - although the card has expired a number of times the actual card number is the same but I presume you are saying that if you use a different card/account then you lose the previous transaction information?
Report Andriy June 20, 2016 10:03 AM BST
Additionally, it doesn't show you lifetime withdrawal totals to a bank, which you have to use when withdrawals to a card exceed deposits to it.

You can get a ballpark 'Net Lifetime Profit' figure though  just from the PC page as it stands, particularly if your discount rate is very constant or within a narrow band (can't imagine there are too many people that vary wildly over a long period).

You just need 3 figures from your PC page:

Gross profit and loss (i'll denote it as GP)
Commission (2nd row), this is actually the commission generated (denote as CG)
Premium charges (2nd row), deduct 1k from the figure for the allowance (then denote as  PC)

You've then got the following 2 simultaneous equations to solve for GW (lifetime winnings from all winning markets, pre-commission), and GL (total losses from all losing markets):

GP=GW-GL
CG= 0.5*(commrate*GW + 0.03*GL)

Once you've got GW and GL, the actual lifetime commission paid (rather than generated) is given by:
CP= commrate * GW

And then the lifetime net profit is given by:
NP = GP-CP-PC

Looks complex, but you only need to stick it into a spreadsheet once.
Report Gin June 20, 2016 10:09 AM BST
Andriy 20 Jun 16 10:03 Joined: 22 Jun 10 | Topic/replies: 749 | Blogger: Andriy's blog
Additionally, it doesn't show you lifetime withdrawal totals to a bank, which you have to use when withdrawals to a card exceed deposits to it.

My withdrawls to my card far exceed the amount that I have deposited to it Confused
Report Andriy June 20, 2016 10:15 AM BST
I was able to do that for other bookie accounts, but it never allowed me to here. I'm not sure why since i'd supplied all the KYC data, but i never followed up since it was easy enough to set up the bank withdrawal option.
Report Gin June 20, 2016 10:21 AM BST
Strange. Are you talking about a bank card (not credit card?). If so, maybe its bank dependent (although I guess not as you said you did it with other bookie accounts).
Report stu June 20, 2016 11:16 AM BST
stu - I haven't had a history report from Betfair for about 10 years but the last one that I had listed every single bet placed.

Wow, thanks Gin - I've never asked them for such a breakdown (perhaps should), but I think mine would be 1000's of pages long!!
Report Andriy June 20, 2016 11:23 AM BST
Yes, a bank card, the same one used with some bookies which allowed withdrawals > deposits. As i say though, it never became an issue so i didn't query it. However, with regard to the issue of calculating the lifetime situation from the withdrawals page, the point is still valid, because there will be a number of people that rarely/never deposit, and only use the bank option for occasional withdrawals which doesn't give you a lifetime amount.
I'm surprised some people (in particular winners) don't keep better records themselves though, keeping a spreadsheet of all deposits/withdrawals, given the lack of full info re lifetime situation on the PC page.
Report stu June 20, 2016 11:36 AM BST
Personally I keep records, but more summary based - if you have a high amount of turnover/markets/positions it just takes too much time (rather than researching etc) to record every detail constantly.
Report Gin June 20, 2016 11:49 AM BST
Andriy - Not sure that I follow what you are saying re: withdrawls page. When I go to that page it shows me my total ever deposits and my total ever withdrawls and then gives a net deposits figure. this figure tallies with my lifetime profit figure (once I have incorporated my current balance).

Stu - I keep a record of wins/losses/commissions for every market I bet on. This allows me to know my exact Premium Charge figure at any given time. It's a pain in the ass to record the info but also flags up any differences in what I think my balance should be and what Betfair are telling me. It also allows me to analyse performance in different sports/markets which sometimes differs on the spreadsheet to what my head is telling me!
Report stu June 20, 2016 11:51 AM BST
It's good practice to record I agree gin - just laziness perhaps that gets in the way of doing it properly!
Report stu June 20, 2016 11:52 AM BST
...and too much time posting on forums instead Blush
Report Gin June 20, 2016 11:53 AM BST
Laugh
Report Oceanfinance June 28, 2016 4:56 PM BST
how do you know what % you're paying (PC) with the (lack of) info on the account page?
Report the big bossman June 28, 2016 5:27 PM BST
betfair mobile app shows you go to account page
Report Oceanfinance June 28, 2016 6:05 PM BST
thanks
Report matador June 29, 2016 8:46 PM BST
can I just ask where exactly is the Premium charges page? I cant see anything under my account. thanks
Report Gin June 29, 2016 9:04 PM BST
If you click on "My Account" and then on that page click on the "activity" drop down menu and it should be at the bottom.
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