If Betfair operated in their own markets without a delay

Not the Gambling Commission because they are about as useful as an England penalty taker at the World Cup.

it would be blatant fraud, so it doesn't happen.

Apr 21, 2016 -- 1:30PM, dave1357 wrote:

it would be blatant fraud, so it doesn't happen.

I frequently see people helping themselves to money when the markets are suspended.

The 8 sec rule does not apply to certain accounts - watch and see for yourself.

Would not be surprised at all if it came out that one of these accounts belongs to Paddy Power Betfair.

beyond belief what some people are capable of talking themselves into over time

Westender, whilst I appreciate your efforts to put pressure on management regarding the future of BF you have got this seriously wrong. No one has access to markets without time delays. It is the same for all. Why would BF jeapordise a business making hundreds of millions of pounds to steal a few extra pounds. When you see prices move often it will be because bets are cancelled.

Don't be so naive marlas.

They're not jeopardising anything if no-one's looking. I guarantee BF staff are contract bound to not discuss anything if they leave.

Apr 22, 2016 -- 2:01PM, Oceanfinance wrote:

They're not jeopardising anything if no-one's looking. I guarantee BF staff are contract bound to not discuss anything if they leave.

You can't be "contract bound" not to discuss a criminal offence

What offence is being committed?

Does the cross-matcher have the delay?

frog has a tin opener in one hand and a can of worms in the other.

Apr 22, 2016 -- 2:22PM, Oceanfinance wrote:

What offence is being committed?

"cheating at gambling"  possibly common fraud

The Betfair cross-matcher has to operate without a delay, or it wouldn't be able to cross-match.

Does it earn PaddyPower pennies every single fraction of a second in which it operates? It surely must do. There aren't enough decimal places in the odds to cross-match precisely.

Unless of course PaddyPower are crediting the punters with those pennies by rounding the odds in the punters' favour.

I wonder which way I would go, if I ran the firm and were offered the option.

More than a decade ago no one would have believed that betfair would be active in there own markets yet we all know that this now happens whether it is cross matching or other ways so what is to stop betfair being active and trading for profit in there markets and also being ahead of the market ie 1st in the queue after unsuspension of in running football markets or other markets,would they be doing anything wrong if this was the case ? i do not know and if they were doing this and they were in the wrong who would police this ? The gambling commission ? whom appear to be pretty useless in many peoples view.
My view is just like the New Jersey gambling commission that betfair should not operate in there own markets for transparency purposes and they stipulated that when granting them a license.

Apr 22, 2016 -- 3:05PM, frog2 wrote:

Does the cross-matcher have the delay?

The crossmatcher is an algorithm. It's not betting anything.

Apr 22, 2016 -- 6:02PM, screaming from beneaththewaves wrote:

The Betfair cross-matcher has to operate without a delay, or it wouldn't be able to cross-match.Does it earn PaddyPower pennies every single fraction of a second in which it operates? It surely must do. There aren't enough decimal places in the odds to cross-match precisely.Unless of course PaddyPower are crediting the punters with those pennies by rounding the odds in the punters' favour.I wonder which way I would go, if I ran the firm and were offered the option.

Oz markets give the money back once a year.
UK markets don't.

Yes.

I received such a one-off payment once, but not for a very long time. And probably place more bets on Aus markets these days thanks to the Big Bash.

Anyway, even if that is just an innocent oversight, we seem to have established that Paddy Power are trading in the Betfair in-play markets via a cross-matching bot that uses an algorithm which cannot lose because it is not subject to any delay. And that when it plays on any event taking place outside Aus/NZ, Paddy Power pockets the winnings.

The crossmatching bots makes the markets more fair for all punters (except those trying to con people out of terrible prices).

I agree. The cross-matching bots have been a boon for me as a punter.

But ... they would be even more of a boon if their operator weren't pocketing pennies from them every fraction of a second every single day.

Since xmxm was introduced bf put up terrible trap bets on several markets, this is not fairer for punters. And unless bf have changed how the original cross matching works it gets free positions on markets with more than 2 runners.

Except it's not BF putting up the trap bet. It's another trader on a different market.

No, to illustrate I can back a team to win today on match odds at 9.8. Thanks to cross matching I can back the same team -1 at the same odds.

Then that's an error/oversight on Betfair's xmxm part, not them entering their own odds.

Though not playing those markets myself, I suppose it depends who the discrepancy benefits - you or Betfair.

Come on its not an oversight its by design! I've just tested the way bf gets free runners from the original xm and its still the same after all these years, on any market with more than 2 runners bf are potentially raking it in.

They're still not betting in the market. It's the error rate that was addressed above.

In Aus, BF give it back.
In UK or anywhere else for that matter, BF keep the error.

Nice earner for them correct. The difference between OZ/main wallet needs rectifying.

Well we're talking definitions, bf would say I'm matching virtual prices. Its not an error when bf get free runners, its deliberate and it wouldn't be hard to actually provide best execution. As it is bf could potentially be winning money on particular outcomes, so they are in some way in the market.

They're not in their own markets though. If they were beating the time delay, as was initially referred to in the OP, then they could theoretically be making a killing by fraudulent means. As it is, the cross-matching (or cross market cross-matching) is set up to provide a fair market especially where liquidity provides it. It does have its falldowns but no less than a system without crossmatching would have. However, the tiny differences in the real prices and the virtual prices that the crossmatching algorithm creates gives Betfair tiny profits. It's nigh on impossible to work out what those tiny profits do add up to, especially because you cannot get any real figure on how much is crossmatched, but it could add up to a very tidy sum every day for Betfair.

I really don't understand the conspiracy regarding crossmatching at all, it creates a much fairer market than without crossmatching when trap bets are/were easier to match. The scandal for me is that Betfair keep such a tidy sum (especially when Australian regulations require them to be distributed for Oz markets).

I'm not so bothered about the profits when the odds don't reverse quite perfectly. Its about them keeping all the money when they get free runners either from the original xm or the newer xmxm, for me these are a version of trap bets.

Shouldn't they have to explain to someone what exactly it is they are doing? For example the 4 places market on racing went in running. What is guiding these prices? They have nothing to work off?

XM is just a way of putting PEOPLE's prices up in different ways. It's not BF punting FFS.
The refund that they give in the Oz markets is the tiny bit of commission that they earn twice through
the XM. As far as the person betting against the XM bot is concerned, the commission is exactly as if
they had placed the bet against a person. The reason they refund in Oz is that the Tasmanian authorities
spotted that they could be charging commission twice on the same wager, so they forced them to come clean
and distribute this double commission to the customers when it arose.

Just because you are not prepared to put the effort into understanding something does
not make it an evil conspiracy.

I don't work for BF and I don't work for PP and and I definitely don't think they are
improving, but there's nothing to be achieved by attacking them on the wrong front when
there are the following problems to address:

- Premium Charge
- No liability offset on ante-post handicap horse races
- NRNB in golf majors
- Huge losses in liquidity in horse racing and other markets
- Sportsbook and the poxy casino

Thanks for the explanation re: the refund, etc, though still don't understand why the same doesn't apply across all markets.

Otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree with you, bashing BF over the crossmatching bot, which for me is a credit to the Betfair system, is out of line.

Apr 24, 2016 -- 8:43PM, PeteTheBloke wrote:

XM is just a way of putting PEOPLE's prices up in different ways. It's not BF punting FFS.The refund that they give in the Oz markets is the tiny bit of commission that they earn twice throughthe XM. As far as the person betting against the XM bot is concerned, the commission is exactly as ifthey had placed the bet against a person. The reason they refund in Oz is that the Tasmanian authoritiesspotted that they could be charging commission twice on the same wager, so they forced them to come cleanand distribute this double commission to the customers when it arose.

I'm not saying its the biggest issue for bf exchange customers, I was merely responding to a comment that the cross matching made the exchange fairer.
I understand how it works perfectly well, I'm afraid you seem not to, its nothing to do with commission. Bets can be matched on the exchange where the backer and layer can both lose, and bf keep all the proceeds, do you think this is fair?

The cross matcher was an excellent idea but where it badly falls down is when 1.01 is cross matched with 55. That is an enormous discrepancy in odds and you are throwing half your stake away if you back the cross matched bet of 1.01 instead of laying at 55.

If I make a mistake entering a bet I used to have a sporting chance of cancelling it before someone saw it and took it due to the delay. This was particularly the case for the lower liquidty markets that have declined massively in volume since X-matching appeared. Betfair's instant access to the market due to the X-matching systems have removed this cancellation chance.

Bets can be matched on the exchange where the backer and layer can both lose

Erm. No they can't.

Erm yes they can. As I've already explained if you read the thread.
xmxm - Player lays team A. Betfair xm this with a back of team A minus 1,2 or 3 goals. Team a wins by 1 goal. Both bets lose.
xm - Player puts a back offer on in 3 way market. This is displayed as lays on the other 2 options. If someone backs one of these xm prices and there are no back offers on the third option then bf keep the proceeds if this wins. Its why people put up small amounts at 1000/1, hoping to get matched by the xm.

It's not cross-punting. It's cross-matching. They only put up a virtual bet when it is possible as
a result of another bet (or 2 bets in a 3-way market). If the virtual bet is taken it is MATCHED
against the actual bets on the other side of the market.

https://api.developer.betfair.com/services/webapps/docs/display/1smk3cen4v3l...

Yes the bets are matched. Even when the options are not the same, thats the point. Backing Spurs at evens on match odds is not the same as laying West Brom at evens, but those are the odds the xm will provide. I'm afraid your earlier comments regarding the rebate being extra commission that bf have earned from the xm show that you have no idea how it works.

Cross matching has def been a help for the horse racing inrunning but it does not always run as it should. I know when theres a late withdrawn horse in the market and that runner is not taken out then the cross matcher is turned off incase it is corrupted with people backing the non runner.

But theres always a few races (where no horse is withdrawn)where there is some funny inrunning prices matched near the end and its clear the cross matching and best execution worked has not taken place. A race at tramore today where the camera angle changed a few times on the run and there was a close finish - the last prices matched on both the horses were 1.05 and 1.3. Now if the cross matcher was working fine during the race which it seemed to - why did it not work at the end.

Also was a race at aintree or cheltenham a few weeks back - where the fav (mullins horse) looked like it was about to get to get caught in the final 200 yards or so but it kept going and won. On the run in it hit a high or 4.0 while the runner up was hammered into 1.03/04.

Its not a one off - happens prob alot more often than we realise, and can only see it when its a close finish and some funny prices have been matched on the run in. So if the cross matcher works during the race - why is turned off near the end and how much is BF rinsing out the market on a daily basis.

bingo bongo is correct.

bingo bongo is not correct. to "prove" betfair is the bad boy he has created an example where it may be possible for them to win both sides of a bet.... but this only applies to a small fraction of crossmatched bets where either odds are completely wrong or some risk is not laid of


in general the crossmatcher is a great tool to increase traded volume. also everybody can set up his own cross matcher...and if someone already has he for sure won't volunteer to donate his winnings to a pool distrubuted to competitors...

Read the thread. bingo bongo is still 100% correct in what he says.

Fixed is correct anyone can set up there own cross matcher, but not without a delay. Add the resources required and it would be impossible to compete with an in house bot. Thats not to say betfair shouldn't be doing it themselves, but they should be doing so fairly.

Of course it only happens on a small fraction of bets, but together with the rounding errors the revenue is significant going by the Aussie rebate. Also this revenue will grow as xm was introduced to horse racing last year, the volatile in running markets are perfect for bf.

aside from it being a sideshow that only accounts for a very small portion of total traded volume in my view the crossmatcher is okay/fair even without them having to distribute their winnings from it

why should they have to hand out the profit from guiding (and sometimes converting) a bet from a different market towards you ?
they put in the work, the tool and if they have the same risk of error as you have when you put in a bet it should be their profit

with regard to the delay you can enter bets into different markets simultaneously as well...also it's the only sensible way to operate the crossmatcher ....there are sometimes more than 2 markets linked and having additional delays on top of the normal delay when moving a bet between markets doesn't make sense

There is no risk of error for betfair, none whatsoever. Just the possibility of extra revenue. In the highly unlikely event of a mistake like setting the market up incorrectly then its voided.
There shouldn't be any xm profits for bf to hand out, the money matched should remain with the bettors via better execution, this is still a p2p betting exchange (just about) after all.

not true. i have personally experienced them setting a crosslink up incorrectly and paying out in full

being liable to this kind of error is a necessary condition for the crossmatcher to be labeled 'fair' from my view, so as long as they do that i fully support it being used even without distributing profits

Since when and on what rules bets are reaching the market within second(immediately)just after suspension? On Croatia - Spain game market got suspended for 5 seconds, but someone with 5000 appeared on Ladder within 0.5s jus after market went in play again. Its unfair! Rules are rules!