Help With Arbing Accounts

I'm glad to hear it. I despise arbers, they make any pros job of backing horses so much harder and we get mistaken for lowlife arbers so our accounts get closed even faster than they would normally do so. And all this for 0.5% profit on turnover I presume - honestly arbers need to get a life.

All arbers do is back value selections, so I'm not sure why you're taking the moral highground.  Not a great deal of difference from what most pros do.

On the horse racing forum you're canvassing for runners to go around shops placing bets for you.  How come you don't consider this lowlife behaviour?

Because the enemy has always been the bookmaker........always has been and always will be. What I do doesn't hurt other punters. In fact I'm helping my bet placers by making them 10-15k tax free cash per season and in the process hurting the scumbag bookies.

What Arbers do is steal the value selections without having done the work to come to those conclusions hence hurting those pros who have worked hard with their ratings systems or whatever to develop their edge to come to those conclusions to find these selections.

It is not even a remotely similar comparison.

So you work hard at your job and so deserve to win whereas arbers are scum and don't.  Bizarre logic.

I don't know if you've noticed but betting is about winning money, bookies don't pay a bonus for the amount of effort you put in.

Pretty Much it - Arbers don't deserve to win whereas people who have the brains and skill to make it pay do.

I liken it to you doing all the work for a project and when its just about ready to present another person steals your documents and presents it as there own.

What Arbers do is steal the value selections

I always thought that arbing is backing at the bookies and laying it back on betfair regardless of the perceived value

if a horse should be 2/1 , but it is evens in the shops and 1.9 on here , it is not a value bet to back clearly , but it is an arb

isn't it

So a bet placer deserves to win even though they have exercised zero judgement? ...

but an arber doesn't for exactly the same reason?...

Bizarre non sequitur.

The money your placers make is as unprincipled as the money an arber makes and it is facilitated entirely by you. Clearly!

KB - Fair point re: the bet placers and arbers neither having exercised any judgement.

2 reasons why the bet placer money earned is way more principled than the arbers are:

1 - They are earning their money via the bookies for a service they are providing me. Basically they are doing a commission based job versus an arber doing no service to anyone other than ruining the prices for everyone else. I think its very naive to think the arber hurts no one when he/she hurts us all.

2 - Given that it is commonly acknowledged betting is a game between punter and bookie and that bookies have rewritten the rules in their favour my bet placers are just balancing the books a little. What do the arbers do other than work for the bookies by giving an instant alert that they are out of line? Again hurting the punters who want to bet a selection at best price.

I do see your point but to me Arbers are the most selfish of all the betting fraternity as they are just in it for themselves without any thought of their brother punters. I am not saying that I lose sleep over what other punters lose but at least i'll leave the overnight best odds out of principle as i don't want to mark the bookies card.

1) Not true. An arber provides liquidity and a better price to those seeking to punt on the exchange.

2) Your first statement would have been true prior to the advent of the exchanges but not now. Your second statement I answered in point 1)

Finally, you do what you do for personal gain and that’s fair enough and I wish you well but to attempt to take any kind of moral high ground is completely fatuous. Betting is an intrinsically parasitic and selfish activity … In order for you to be successful others have to fail. Again, I have no problem with that but what I do have a problem with is the self-righteous position you have adopted which seems blinkered, arrogant and completely misguided.

KB -- Betting is an intrinsically parasitic and selfish activity … In order for you to be successful others have to fail

I think that's where we differ in our outlooks. In all walks of life the people who are best at what they do rise to the top and betting for me is no different. I see betting as a challenge, a test of my mind versus the odds compiler and a challenge in how best to optimise my advantage over them. I don't see anything selfish or parasitic about it - if thats how you feel about it then that may be true for you but it wouldn't be for most people who have worked hard to develop their edge over the bookies.

Anyway I will leave you to have last say on this as I've made my point but I think trying to compare arbers to people who have developed genuine skills, ratings etc to as equally selfish and parasitic is very misguided of you.

I often get the comment "Good for you sticking it to those evil bookies". I wonder does an arber ever get thought that way? You're argument that they provide liquidity on here is partially true but they ruined the price for anyone that bets at a bookies online and definitely ruled out the possibility the cash punter ever even saw the price in the process.

as they are just in it for themselves without any thought of their brother punters.

Fookin hilarious

The problem with arbers is they very quickly pounce on out of line prices, thus restricting their availability.  Furthermore, they dissipate a lot of value by laying off on the exchange and paying commission or backing the other side at bad value odds, just to secure a guaranteed profit.  So they are in effect low skilled min-wage types with no prospects that annoy bookmakers and encourage them to shut down anyone who bets substantial amounts when they have the best price. 

So when they're shut down they really don't deserve "help" or "creative ideas".  They just need to accept that they made a few quid, but the party is over and it's time to move on.

So they are in effect low skilled min-wage types with no prospects



How very dare you!

One great bonus of arbing is that you piss off some very pompous people.

lol you don't "piss me off" - I just don't give a sh1t when you run out of accounts.

Odd thing to say.  Why would anyone care if someone ran out of accounts?

Why would a arber run out of accounts quicker than a successful gambler

uhhhh??? ...............because every bet of there's is an arb!

Jul 31, 2015 -- 6:57PM, TheBaron wrote:

Odd thing to say.

Some people need reminding how bookmakers restricted and closed down punters for centuries before exchanges and arbers appeared. I have letters dated between 1990 and 1999 closing my accounts with Coral, V Chandler, Coomes, AR Dennis, Backhouse (the forerunner of B365), the Tote, P Jolliffe and Stanley Racing (and others I've lost or forgotten about).

Arbers might have increased the numbers of closures/restrictions, but only because they're doing exactly the same thing: winning on the horses. The method doesn't enter into it.

Hell, even Syd James got closed down 40 years ago after a lucky streak following tips from the wife's budgie.

If you back horses, embrace arbers. Without them you would get £2.14 @14/1 with the books, followed by £2 @ 14.5, £2 @ 14.0 and £2 @13.5 on here, and the rest at 13.0 or 12/1 with the books. But thanks to arbers you will still only get £2.14 @ 14/1 with the books, but you can get the rest on at 14.5 or, at worst, 14.0 on Betfair.

SFB - yes I have these letters too but its not the same now as it used to be and the arbers/betfair combination have a great deal to with it. I'm referring here to horse race betting to be clear - In the days pre Betfair a bookie would know they are best price something and stand it for an amount depending on who was betting it, and dependant on the info they were getting internally where money was going elsewhere - I worked in the industry. The process of restricting/closing people was based on:

1 - How well they were doing over a period - never ever shorter than 3 months.
2 - Their prices taken versus sp.
3 - Whether they were considered tipping line followers.
4 - Who else was doing their selections - known winner links etc.

This led to accounts lasting on average 6 months even for good winners.

Now the first consideration is whether it is an arb. Naturally if you are a genuine punter and are backing best price sometimes it will be an arb even if you are not aware of it, but because of the bookmaking industry blanket approach not to entertain arbers these genuine punters get caught in the net for arbers. Now sure they would have got closed/restricted eventually if they were any good but "fear of arber" makes bookmakers trigger happy and hence makes a lot of genuine skilled punters lifes more difficult.

You're argument re getting more on here at betfair because of the arbers is completely false except pricewise selections. There is nothing on here but pennies before noon except saturdays - by the time the arbers have put up their money a 14/1 shot that a genuine punter could have filled his boots on @ 12/1, 11/1 and 10's is now 7/1 at the bookies and 8.6 on here. Remember the Arber very often inadvertendly gets the snowball of money going  on a selection cos they see the arb, people who were waiting to do it are then rushing and the lemming followers of money add to the price crash. I see this daily hence my absolute despise of arbers.

'It's always about beating the bookie'. This is a misconception. It's about beating other punters. The bookie is a middleman. He takes a cut for acting as an intermediary. His cut may be fat, perhaps because he has staff and electricity bills to pay, or thinner, because he has efficient technology and fewer overheads.

Anyone who wins is winning out of the bets of mostly incontinent, price-inelastic, last-minute punters. They are the net losers; they pay, first of all, the salary of the bookie and his agents, and second, the earnings of winning punters.

When the price-taker or arber can't get on, they need to think it's because there isn't enough losing money in the game to support them. Partly this is bookmaker greed--but only partly. There are not enough doctors and country solicitors and City boys betting 100k a year and being able to afford to lose 5% on turnover. Instead, we're winning from people on benefits in the shops, who are betting less.

Some good arguments on this thread. You don't often see "non sequitur" used here.

What happened to the OP, though? You'd think he'd want to defend his position :)

I'll give the OP a tip cos im drunk ... don't bother arbing early prices or any Win prices period... concentrate on big field handicaps that are overbroke in the place (anything pre live show is workable) ... spread your bets around , give some value back and you might get a reasonable run for your money.

oh and askari ****g nailed it

oh and askari ****g nailed it

Yep.

surely the fault lies with the people putting up shorther prices on betfair
take them away and the arbers are no longer

Arbing is clearly the most sensible way to make money from betting.No risk.I wish I had the skill,and the accounts to do it.

Skill??? C'Mon really?? Think pushing a letter into an envelope requires more skill.

Ok Wish I had the accounts to do it.No ego involved in my betting unlike yo.

Betting is all about ego for most people. The feeling that they have figured it out better than the odds compilers and other punters. Nothing wrong in that and I can't see what would keep you going in betting if you didn't have that. Winning money is just a product.

Winning money is just a product.

That's not always true. Some people just go to work to make a living. There are loads of businessmen,
for example, who are happy to carve out a day's wages without being best at what they do. Not everyone
wants to be Richard Branston or Alan Sugar.

*Branson

- always get in a pickle with that one.

Guess the low skilled min-wage types with no prospects quote must be true then.

Are there really that many arbing opportunities around?  Seems to me it is just a good excuse for bookies to close and/or restrict accounts as there really cannot be that many opportunities available given the amount of money in the BF markets up to say an hour before racing starts outside of the big meetings.

Unfortunately there is arbing software out there that highlights the arb. So it makes life easy for the weasal arbers.

Spend hours studying form/creating your own ratings/working at whatever edge you've created versus clicking a few buttons, banking the guaranteed cash and wandering off to spend time with your family.  You can see why arbers are happy enough with their approach.

Some laughable statements on here from you, racingguru.  Double standards doesn't even begin to cover it.

RTB -- Yes, I hate arbers with a vengeance and yes I believe they cause untold damage/cost to normal punters with the way the operate and yes I believe they are super selfish for doing so. This is consistent in this and every other thread I've mentioned arbers.

I don't see the double standards you are accusing me of but if you equate all winning equal then you are entitled to your point even though its incorrect. Like, I would think that laying a horse that you had the inside info on that was not trying is fraudulent but its winning.

if you equate all winning equal then you are entitled to your point even though its incorrect

You're entitled to think it's incorrect, even though it's not.  If I win £100 arbing and you win £100 through hours of hard work, the bottom line is still we're £100 up apiece.  You seem to think that there's some glory in what you do, but that anyone making it through arbing is pure scum.  Whatever you need to tell yourself, I suppose.

The fact is that you're taking value prices, as are arbers.  If you take pride in how you know that the prices are value, that's your lookout.  Some people are happy to have the work done for them (by the likes of you). 

You've got a team of placers throughout the country, meaning that you can circumvent limits that are put in place so that the book can manage its risk.  You then seem to tell yourself that this is acceptable because the bookie is the bad man and deserves it.  Would the bloke who nips down to Lads to have his tenner on at 14/1, only to get 12/1 after your mob have smashed it in every county in the land, be entitled to think that you're scum and ruining it for everyone?  Or should he be saying "Wow, that racingguru bloke is so clever, I wish I was like him.  Still, always next week."?

Several years ago I used to enter a monthly tipping contest, the prize was £500 worth of free bets till they started reducing it. 
About 400 people would enter this contest every month.
  In six months I won twice was second and third twice and fourth.  In the total points gained over the six months I was streets ahead of anyone else.
How did I select my tips, did I burn the midnight oil studying the form book.  No it took me seconds because I was selecting horses that could be arbed.  To me it was bleedin obvious and I was surprised others weren't doing it.

  Was I cheating, should I have ignored the easy way of doing things and stuck to the traditional way?

If the arbs are scum, what are the people who ask for 10/1 when the books are going 12/1?

All the arb does is accommodate the bloke who can't get on with the books, and take a commission for doing it.
Why would anyone deny them the right to do a deal that pleases them both?

TheBaron - I very much doubt the story is true as most of such competitions are based on sp but assuming it is true then why would an arber such as yourself who finds it so easy to beat the book settle for 0.5 - 1% profit on turnover where you could be doing 20-30% on turnover without arbing?

PTB - This is the sorry lame excuse that arbers dredge out - they are providing liquidity - lmao. The limited liquidity they do provide come out after noon after which time everyone can get on so you're not doing anyone any favours.

RTB - Everyone knows what time the shops open and if a person has done his homework he has much chance to get said best price as I do. I have at least kept my powder dry and given all a chance to get on. Do you seriously think any decent pro couldn't blow out the potential arbs before 6pm the evening before a days racing? I could do it very easily and have the accounts to do it BUT I choose not to be so selfish as there's a difference in my mind how you win but alas arbers don't seem to have any grain of principle.

I see.  So you're running a semi charitable approach, whereby you could make more money by taking certain bets, but choose not to because you're such a Samaritan and want to spread the love?  Don't make me laugh. 

Principles seem to go out of the window when you've got a crew prowling the streets of various cities over the UK, hitting these bets multiple times.  If you're such a fair player, why not bet the limit in the shop and then have done with it?  As I say, whatever you need to tell yourself.

RTB - not running any charity but I see the bookie as the enemy and want to hurt them as much as possible. My methods do that to the best of my ability. The arber doesn't hurt the bookie in the slightest as he alerts them to the mistakes they make.

Anyway the good thing is bookie software is getting better so that there will be less arbs and hopefully the arbers will have to learn to earn their corn or get out the game. The game will be a better place for all.

Why is there this assumption that if you arb then that must be all you're capable of doing? Arbing can be just a single part of a well rounded holistic strategy. Personally I do a bit of everything and I know of others who do the same.

Strange!

Well maybe I should clarify then - I hate the activity of arbing with a vengeance and see the activity as super selfish.

and running a team of placers is benevolence personified? You and you're ilk can only be shortening prices earlier than would otherwise be the case. This obviously impacts the regular lone punter severely.

If that isn't selfish I don't know what is!

The arber doesn't hurt the bookie in the slightest as he alerts them to the mistakes they make.

...by which time the bookie has already been hammered on its out of line prices.  I'd say that that hurts profits, wouldn't you?

Greed is good in this game.  I'm not disputing that arbing is greedy, but so is sending an entourage of folk around the shops to get the maximum amount on.  Why you think that arbers are scum but you're deserving of a pat on the back is puzzling at best.  You're not so different.

RTB - I'm talking overall. The Arber is taking a price that is out of line and doing the other side or laying on here for a net profit margin that is very low. They have to do so because they don't have the knowledge base of which side is out of line but understand the fact that its out of line enough to get their 0.5% - 1% guaranteed profit.

I just, and again this is my opinion feel this is selfish behaviour because they are denying that price to someone who may have the skill to know that price is out 25% and can make a huge profit from it (hurting the bookmaker overall more)

Anyway, whatever I say its going to continue until a time where their software doesn't allow it or they tighten their margins further so it doesn't happen. The net result will be everyone is worse off. To be honest there isn't enough money in the game nowadays to afford the likes of arbers to siphon off free money. I understand their reasoning but they are killing the game. I understand the counter argument you're gonna say I'm taking money out of the game too BUT the difference is I am playing the game that the bookies designed and have full control over (more so than ever now with technology). Its just I play the game better than they do. Arbers are just taking out chunks of the pie without having played the game which has always been about risk/reward.

This is my last post on the thread - its been an interesting debate and I'll leave you with the question " What will you the arbers do when arbs no longer exist or there are so few of them to make it worthwhile?" I know I can still survive albeit at lower margins. Are you going to learn to pay for your buzz like the majority, get out the game or try and beat the game fair and square?

I wish you all luck in all scenarios that will inevitably happen. The Free Lunch can't last for too much longer in the present climate.

Well you are number one at something, that has to be the most condescending post I have ever read on the forum.

I'd take issue with a few of your points.  You're just guessing at the profit margin; do you have any factual basis for it, or have you just made up an artifically low amount to help your agenda?  Also, I think that it's fairly obvious that the bookie will be out of line 99.9% of the time, given that Betfair is about as good a tissue as you can possibly get.

racingguru - you're not the world's premier gambler.  Therefore, by your logic, it's incredibly selfish of you (and, of course, your swarm of placers) to hop on these bets when there's others out there who could extract slighly more value out of them.  Or you could step into the real world and get on what you can, when you can, and make the best out of it.

The only way of evaluating who does best is to stick your P&L up for the last few years and get an arber to do the same.  My guess is that a fair few arbers who know their stuff would blow you out of the water.

TheBaron - I very much doubt the story is true as most of such competitions are based on sp but assuming it is true then why would an arber such as yourself who finds it so easy to beat the book settle for 0.5 - 1% profit on turnover where you could be doing 20-30% on turnover without arbing?

The competition was run by an odds comparison sight and based on the best odds available at that the time.

Yes I could have made more money in the long run by not arbing but you have to take into account personal circumstances ie when I started I borrowed money on credit cards, I could not afford to lose.  I got used to having risk free bets and as I had a couple of"losing"  runs which would have wiped me out if not hedging the bets, I stayed as I was.

I had five good years arbing the result of which leaves me today mortgage free.  I haven't arbed for five years I knew it was only going to be a short lived thing.

I would be surprised if arbers are having much impact on horse racing today, who can get on, apart from your team of ethical, highly skilled runners.

as i said, u cannot blame the arbers,
i used to bet outside [ greyhounds ] and if we was going to take 3/1 first show
99/100 money would appear at 5/2 six minutes before the off

Greyhounds certainly one place you can arb. I've regularly seen long shots actually a longer price on Bet365 - and significantly so - than on here right at the off.

Nothing like a delusional expert to comment. Does this guru not beat the odds consistently? If so then to a book there is no difference, neither are wanted by commercial bookmakers.

nice going here.... I enjoyed reading the arguments for or against arbing on this thread.

found a very good solution to my account problems, so I never checked back here until now. If anyone needs accounts + skrill neteller attached, I can help. I must admit it gets harder everyday but meh

now back to my low skill no prospect job :)
.

Hi casaam, I sent a message.

Hi casaam, I sent a message.

casaam 29 Feb 16 05:33 Joined: 12 Aug 10 | Topic/replies: 6

probably a scammer - 1 post per year.

Asks a question (involving money) - then miraculously finds the answer himself, then invites people to contact him.

Interesting debate though

I bet anyone on Premium Charge wishes they'd arbed in the past.

I remember when the Charge was introduced, there was a comment from Betfair that they were assuming it would encourage arbing as a way of avoiding the Charge.

Betfair in talking complete cobblers SHOCKER.  Why would some shrewd enough to pay premium charge be dumb enough to ruin a bookie account by using it to arb?

Also to comment on this quote

"racingguru  There is nothing on here but pennies before noon"


Then it's not arbers is it!!  It's not rocket science.  The reason bookmakers shorten horse prices is because it is an arb not because they've taken any money on it.  That's not rocket science either.

There's more truth in a tabloid news story than there is in a PR quote from a bookmaker rep.

No arbers would need to use Betfair for main markets. Smarkets 2% and no PC along with the other low commission exchanges are far and away much superior.

I bet anyone on Premium Charge wishes they'd arbed in the past.



Even though I haven't arb for years my account must still be showing a healthy loss because of it...which is nice.

Exactly.

If, in the very unlikely event that you were very risk averse, and hadn't already decimated a string of bookie accounts by arbing already, and, were also paying premium charges on here, then you hit another stumbling block... the sequential nature of the charge means that it wouldn't be an arb anyway.  Arbing anyway was only really much use or sense in the very early days of Betfair, before premium charges came in. 

Can only be of any use to seriously big hitters on very low commission who use real time software, linking themselves to Pinny or bet brokers that link themselves to the underground Asian market.  They'd be especially vulnerable to the sequential nature of the charge, and since in these cases, it's the Asian market that moves the Betfair market, very questionable whether you'd actually lose on Betfair.  Anyone on less than 3% comm. probably shouldn't be paying premium charge anyway since they can simply use Betfair's cross market cross matcher to (slightly) reduce the charge.  This isn't real turnover for Betfair though.

Hence why I said ... I bet anyone on Premium Charge wishes they'd arbed in the past.

You do the arbing BEFORE the rest of your betting might make you liable for the Premium Charge. That way you don't actually incur it. So you can carry on arbing where possible, and by extension carry on avoiding the Premium Charge.

Bookies don't take bets, unless you lose.