General Betting
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Has anyone read through this. I think this answer wins the missing the point award. (not my question btw)
Why is the higher rate charged on the basis of lifetime P&L, rather than on hitting annual targets? It means you get stuck on the higher rate regardless of how you do in the future and punishes those that have been with the site a long time. It seems a strange way to treat loyal customers.
Congratulations on your success – Winning £250,000 is no small feat. We use your lifetime net P&L (after all charges) to measure how successful you have been on Betfair. Annual performance goes up and down so it isn’t a good indicator of just how well you have done.
Why is the higher rate charged on the basis of lifetime P&L, rather than on hitting annual targets? It means you get stuck on the higher rate regardless of how you do in the future and punishes those that have been with the site a long time. It seems a strange way to treat loyal customers.
Congratulations on your success – Winning £250,000 is no small feat. We use your lifetime net P&L (after all charges) to measure how successful you have been on Betfair. Annual performance goes up and down so it isn’t a good indicator of just how well you have done.
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Most of the answers seemed to miss the point. Any questions on the relationship between the sportsbook and exchange were all palmed off with the same word-for-word response.
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1) There will be no PC changes,
2) There will be no promotional campaign of exchange. Highly moderated, well chosen questions and answers not to touch certain subjects. Another 2,3 years without changes here, until something miraculous happen? "Congratulations on your success – Winning £250,000 is no small feat"- what a sarcasm ! - Shouldnt it sound like this ? : "Thank you very much that you made 40 000 pound in charges for us- we are looking forward to have a bussiness with you in the future." |
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Does anyone know where I can find a copy of last nights Q & A?
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Charkitz- in 'forum chat' from the forum menu
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Thanks mate
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Betfair customer service is absolutely shocking and those sarcastic answers prove it beyond any doubt.
There will be new entrants at some stage to the market and god help Betfair when the Exchange customers have a viable alternative. When they suddenly send emails asking customers to come back - the stock answer should be 'congratulations Betfair on keeping my business for x years - now feck off'  |
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I don't think the answers are necessarily sarcastic they're subliminal to the non-winners on here - hey don't have any sympathy for your fellow users they've won loads.
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This is their stock answer and I think it's more patronising than sarcastic. The tone is "you've won quite a lot of money so stop whining".
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Without liquidity there is no business - think Betfair have forgot that they get 5% commission on winning bets.
If nobody wins there is no business.  Soon all will be left is Bet Square.  |
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The thing with features like Price Rush, is that it's a great for them to leverage exchange liquidity to offer something unique on the sportsbook, while taking an extra profit in the middle. All well and good, but they need liquidity in the markets, and the people who provide it aren't going to expect to do it for nothing, they're doing it to make money. Which is why it's so odd that they now take such an adversarial approach to winning customers, almost trying to force them out when more than ever the relationship between Betfair and it's (winning) liquidity providers should be a symbiotic one.
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I couldn't believe quite how patronising some of those answers were and how many were copied and pasted from other answers. These people haven't got the guts to sit in front of an audience of their customers and answer the questions we have for them. They hide behind their keyboards on this ridiculous Q&A cherry picking questions they WANT to answer. Totally disgusted especially with their dismissive attitude about the Premium Charge.
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They did specificlly said they had no plans to change the 50%
and 60% rates,which could be read as they are thinking about changing the 40% rate. |
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Interesting how they kept repeating that 'Once customers join Betfair we then offer them the full range of services and encourage them to crossover to the Exchange through targeted email campaigns.' Presumably, this means that any winners on the Sportsbook will soon be directed towards the exchange. This means they'll keep all the fish they can gather on their sportsbook, while increasing the pool of winners on the exchange. They seem to fail to understand that the exchange needs losers as well, otherwise the whole ecosystem suffers.
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But if the fish are getting price rushed they are ending up on the exchange. The problem with price rush currently is that it doesn't apply across the whole range of markets.
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They are only ending up on the exchange when the price you're offering is significantly higher than on the Sportsbook. In the past, the fish would bet at virtually any price. So it's disingenuous to say the fish are still using the exchange. You could argue Price Rush means you're more likely to be matched when you're offering a price that's too high.
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The crux is number of players is down, WAY DOWN! Not the 3 pound blokes but the guys that bet 200 to 300 a game. Demographs in general is killing the gaming industry.
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I'm not going to disagree about the process of being matched with the "fry" being very different to how it used to be; clearly it is.
However, just because you're offering a price that the BFSB isn't doesn't automatically mean you're offering too big a price. From what I've read, they're seldom generous themselves. As I've said before, I'm quite happy laying to tight margins if there's plenty of backers' cash in the market - that's my preferred scenario and is when I enjoy this game the most. The problem is/has been that in many of the markets, that liquidity just isn't present. The only positive thing to have come out of BF's responses is that they are looking at ways to address the decline on the side markets. I can't help but think they need to give market makers some sort of PC tax-break, because it's far too easy to have losing weeks on these markets nowadays because of the dearth of punters, and because you're not fully recompensed for losing weeks, it makes them less attractive to play, and thus the downward spiral continues. |
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However, just because you're offering a price that the BFSB isn't doesn't automatically mean you're offering too big a price.
Yes, but that wasn't what I said. It's just that you'll be more likely to be matched at a price that's too high. The only positive thing to have come out of BF's responses is that they are looking at ways to address the decline on the side markets. Yep, primarily through cross market cross matching with the result being side markets will be perfectly priced. A lot of people will be put out of business by it. There's no chance they'll give a PC tax-break. They tried it with rugby and Spanish football and I'm assuming it didn't work. Any efforts to reignite side markets will be Betfair becoming more involved and will probably be detrimental to layers/market makers. |
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I asked in the forum chat if pc charges could be made monthly, to aggregate the payments and credits. Betfairs reply was people didn't want to keep a such high balance - which I find very hard to believe.
The trial on Spanish football was never likely to work. More than one week I ended up worse off because of it. |
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Yeah, I actually commented on that question on Twitter. I've suggested monthly to them before and am more than willing to ensure there's enough money in my account.
It shows how little understanding they have as when they initially set up the rugby trial (can't remember if was same time as Spanish football) there was an easy work around to slash PC overall. Rather than admit their stupidity, they complained we weren't playing fair! The very definition of hypocrisy. |
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i do not believe that BF encourage punters to move from the SB to the exchange as why spend all the advertising money solely on the SB,also how would they then sell the exchange to these punters with the negative impact of the PC if you are successful,it is far easier for Betfair to offer punters poor odds on the SB then manage the risk and guarantee profit.
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Templeton - You may well be right about the XMXM being what they were referring to, but my own impression was that they were talking about something more.
On a personal level, it would be impossible to apply XMXM to almost any of the side markets which I would have previously priced up in-play. If they want people to play on these markets, something is going to have to give. It's as simple as that, because without layers they've got nothing. Roache - If they were only bothered about laying poor odds themselves, they would not have introduced Price Rush. I've said it before: I don't for one minute believe that BF's end game is to end up as "just another bookmaker". I still can't believe, though, that they think the lifetime numbers they set almost half of BF's existence ago are the ones they should be using now to consider whether, and/or how much, someone should be paying PC or not.... Let's be honest, who is still able to operate today the way they could back in 2005? Not me, for sure! |
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roache
01 Feb 15 22:02 i do not believe that BF encourage punters to move from the SB to the exchange as why spend all the advertising money solely on the SB,also how would they then sell the exchange to these punters with the negative impact of the PC if you are successful,it is far easier for Betfair to offer punters poor odds on the SB then manage the risk and guarantee profit. I believe them when they say they will encourage punters but it'll only be those who require restricting on the Sportsbook. They won't even mention the premium charge, they only do when you've got to hand over your money. |
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Latalomne - what do you think they'll do? They haven't done a single thing to help people like us and I'm not sure why that would change.
I'm the same as you, I've consciously moved towards working on side markets that can't be perfectly priced by being linked to a main market. However, I've been told XMXM will be coming to some sports where I can't see a single market where they can do it perfectly. That concerns me. |
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I'm not sure. As JML pointed out above, and I admit it may just be as a result of how the question was framed, they did only talk specifically about not altering how the 50 and 60% PC bands are applied. It is fair to assume (though I concede there will be exceptions) that the vast majority of those paying those levels of PC have some sort of technological advantage (most likely fast pics/quicker than market data). They are the ones that BF should really be targeting with PC.
Technically the likes of "us", whilst falling within their criteria, still add something positive to the ecosystem as a whole. Maybe it's wishful thinking to hope that they are finally going to recognise that....? Interesting comments re XMXM.... I guess we'll have to wait and see. |
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Correct Latalomne,the 40%ers are more likely the ones that
can take their buisness elsewhere. On the 5th of December I recieved an email from my account manager stating that around 20 customers were currently on a trial and everything was hunky-dory. In my reply on the 8th Dec,I explained why this scheme had not been carefully thought out. No reply to date. I've been a Betfair customer since the very early days (2000), and from my experience you should take anything Betfair says with a pinch of salt. On many occasions this forum,within a very short time,have found faults/loopholes in new schemes/ideas,and most probably any future schemes will be the work of the very same people. |
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Betfair has become complacent and arrogant at the top which will inevitably be their downfall as the betting industry will not stand still.
New technology is relentless and only a matter of time before a new well funded entrant appears. When this happens, Betfair is quickly finished as customer goodwill is now non existent. Once the stampede out the door starts, there will be no incentives that will work to get customers back. The customer base no longer has any faith or trust in Betfair Mgt and it is quite clear that Betfair do not give a shyte about customer satisfaction. The journey towards the end of the cliff has now started. |
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Latalomne - they said they wouldn't be changing the 50%/60% rates in response to a specific question about those two rates. They say earlier on the chat there are no plans to change the Premium Charge. Whilst I agree only those with a real advantage who can't take their business elsewhere should be charged, I don't think this will happen. I'm afraid it is wishful thinking.
JML, are you able to expand on what it is they're doing differently? It's not just a different method of taking the same amount of money, is it? Westender, what do you think someone will offer that ****/Matchbook aren't? |
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There is an increasing gap in the market for a guaranteed risk free profitable business along with a large customer base completely hacked off with the existing monopoly.
This is increasingly noticeable within the betting industry and there are smart people out there who will strike hard when the time is right. I would be suprised if the landscape does not look completely different within 3 years. A small Bet Square struggling in a saturated market will be all that is left. |
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Do you know anything about Bet.Me? All I know is they're launching an exchange and have been working on it for a number of years.
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Yes I did hear there was new businesses in the pipeline that are more serious than Purple and Smarkets.
Hopefully there is a new home for Betfair Exchange customers sooner rather than later. Once people have moved to a better place, trust has totally gone in Betfair and even 1% commission, no premium charges and scrapping the Sportsbook will not entice people back. |
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Correct Templeton Peck,diffrent way to collect the same money.
Main fault is that in reality,Betfair would collect less. Westender,you won't get a more well funded entrant than Betda* was many years ago. The fact that they have tried everything and failed will stop anyone else trying. Matchbook is a bookmaker disguised as an exchange and will remain so as long as they charge commission on every bet. |
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*should stop anyone else trying.
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And if they did succed it wouldn't be long before
PC was introduced. |
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Purple was launched when Betfair was so popular with the customer base and the Exchange was the only priority.
A new entrant has a great chance now as the Betfair Exchange is way down the list of priorities and the customer base are simply waiting for a new home to appear. There is rarely a good future for any business that treats its customer base as a piece of shyte. Five years ago, people thought that there would be no alternative to the Apple Iphone and look at the market now. The betting industry is no different. |
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What do you think the purpose of Lads buying purple was? They have done absolutely nothing with it. Aside from some racing, I can't ever see them even advertise.
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Lads are a waste of space as was the Purple mob before them.
Purple did not even get started and failed to mount a challenge to Betfair when provided with an open goal. The lack of balls shown by both is why Betfair have been able to stiff customers and do what they want. Betfair and **** the past when the new home of betting appears. |
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Sorry Westender,but that's a load of rubbish.
There is already a new home if one was wanted. The only customers that really want a new home are the ones that don't matter. Take a customer that bets £2,£10,£100 or £1000 per race or televised football match. For these customers Betfair hasn't changed in a decade. It still offers the best one-stop value. It's just rediculous to make comparisons between exchange and mobile phone buisnesses. The bottom line is **** have spent 10s of millions trying to get the fish to move from Betfair,and have failed miserably. |
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Betfair still offers the best one-stop value
1. The Sportsbook offers the worst value prices seen in the Betting Industry and even restricts new customers. 2. The Exchange liquidity has been in serious decline month by month for 6 years now and even the blind can see it. 3. People that bet £2, £10, or even £200 are back at the bookmakers now as Betfair no longer offer the best prices de to liquidity decline. 4. Purple have failed to advertise and/or offer enough markets and incentives for new customers. Betfair has driven/continues to drive their own customer base away and competition between Purple/Lads has been like Real Madrid v Cambridge United. The current environment is ripe for change and opportunities as it was pre Betfair. Betfair has had a good run but the world does not stand still and three years from now - Betfair will finally become Bet Square. The world survived before Betfair and does not need Bet Square to survive. |