General Betting
all over various football markets. BF, please terminate with extreme prejudice.
Noticed it on the evening irish racing when there is not as much liquidity.
sadly seen a few of these come in. I normally just stick a 5r up at 1.99 and he goes to another run line.
but BF should identify and ban the pr!ck.
That said, there are those who constantly put them up and fish away, especially around 1 to 3 in the morning on US and AUS horse racing when the pubs empty here in the UK.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if this was the latest betfair money grab.
On greyhounds, I used to put up the £2 bet to block it out. Encouraged others to do it.
But, at the end of the day, you need to focus on your task at hand rather than the distractions.
Unfortunately that probably makes quite a lot of money. I've had a couple myself years ago where I backed a 100 shot at 1.01 for a few grand by betting the wrong selection.
What makes it work is that it runs on so little money, so they can afford to get say 1 offer in 50,000 matched and still make it worthwhile.
I know for sure it's lucrative.
----------
Yes, there is. It's a trap bet if it clearly relies on the optical illusion of continuing a sequence of numbers while leaving out the decimal point.
4.4 4.5 4.6 // 48 is a trap bet
4.4 4.5 4.6 // 120 isn't
other sports too. eg cricket top run scorer.
I'm not sure how that's relevant?
Jun 18, 2014 -- 3:13PM, TheInvestor2 wrote:
What do you mean Shapeshifter? That it's not mentioned in some set of formal rules?I'm not sure how that's relevant?
Technically, there is no way to differentiate between a trap bettor and someone putting up a price that they are asking.
As well, an exchange is a 'free way' for people to put up asks and offers that they are willing to have matched.
So if I feel a horse is not value at the off but is worth a flutter in-running because it is known of drop back and then take a stab, if I put up 120 at £2, that is my right. I'm not trapping anyone.
That said, if the early markets are going up on dogs, etc, and I see 4.6 and 50, yes, my gut says someone trying to deceive but who am I (or betfair) to judge their odds. If the dog goes off at 6.0 and he had 50 up and the dog came in last, his odds were possibly spot on.
I wasn't concentrating and instead of laying Berdych and laying Federer at 1.01 I backed both.
111k stakes. Got it all matched immediately at 1.05 average on Federer and about 10k at 1.03 Berdych.
Instantly 55k down and the market wasn't even formed.
I asked Betfair to contact he counterparty to see if he/she would refund or negotiate.
Apparently the counterparty said no.
Entirely my fault and I accept my loss entirely.
What I don't accept is the counterparty and his methods.
Jun 18, 2014 -- 2:08PM, TheInvestor2 wrote:
On every overs market there is money up at 1.01 laying overs (price never goes there).Unfortunately that probably makes quite a lot of money. I've had a couple myself years ago where I backed a 100 shot at 1.01 for a few grand by betting the wrong selection.What makes it work is that it runs on so little money, so they can afford to get say 1 offer in 50,000 matched and still make it worthwhile.I know for sure it's lucrative.
I know the layers don't care but I often find satisfaction in taking those 1.01's on games where the odds should be nearer 1.001.
I imagine the excitement of the layer thinking some mug has messed up, checking the final result and seeing it as 17-0.
What is it that the layers did that you weren't trying to do as They had just put up lays in a market at short prices and that is also what you were trying to do, even at a shorter price than most of Your counterparties.
That is unless you were referring to them declining the voiding/negotiating suggestion.
But it is highly likely that you were matched by several different layers and are you sure Betfair even contacted them ?
And would you have agreed to void had you been on the other side of the bet ?
And would you agree to void such bets in the future if you are on the profitable side, knowing now that most others wouldn't agree to void ?
I put my lays up at all ticks, not just the low one.
This operator is there all the time and never goes above 1.06.
He operates in GBP and the amounts are the same every time, so I know it was one counterparty.
Betfair said they contacted him.
I would definitely agree to void this kind of mistake.
A separate issue is that the Betfair interface (obviously) doesn't allow you to simultaneously back 1.01 and lay 100 on the same player
but it does allow you do the equivalent ie. back 1.01 on one and back 1.01 on the other.
Jun 18, 2014 -- 2:45PM, viva el presidente! wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no 'trap betting' on an exchange since users are making asks and offers.----------Yes, there is. It's a trap bet if it clearly relies on the optical illusion of continuing a sequence of numbers while leaving out the decimal point.4.4 4.5 4.6 // 48 is a trap bet4.4 4.5 4.6 // 120 isn't
120 is a trap bet. It's just a different type of trap bet.
Jun 19, 2014 -- 12:11AM, Bayes. wrote:
Earlier this year on an ATP final tennis market I was setting up my low tick lays for the next day.I wasn't concentrating and instead of laying Berdych and laying Federer at 1.01 I backed both.111k stakes. Got it all matched immediately at 1.05 average on Federer and about 10k at 1.03 Berdych.Instantly 55k down and the market wasn't even formed.I asked Betfair to contact he counterparty to see if he/she would refund or negotiate.Apparently the counterparty said no.Entirely my fault and I accept my loss entirely.What I don't accept is the counterparty and his methods.
While it clearly ain't morally right, it depends who and how many people you matched, and whether they immediately greened out. Because your mistake will have sparked off a large chain reaction.
I do remember earlier this year, somebody pointing out that in a two-legged football match, the second leg markets were matched at ridiculous odds during the first leg, but the market was suspended and presuambly all voided, so your request can happen.
An absolute disgrace by Betfair to let it stand in a market a few minutes old and 24 hours before the match.
It would be interesting to see what would have happened if this went to court. A palpable error by any definition.
I'd bet 1.01 if Betfair had dumped 55k in a newly formed market by a "fat fingered" error they would have reversed it.
Shocking behavior to let you be robbed like that on something that was so easy to resolve. Typical 2014 Betfair and another reason why they have drifted further away from their customers and get more and more loathed by them.
Jun 19, 2014 -- 1:30PM, Get On MASSIVE wrote:
Almost certainly it was one person who benefited from the 55k.An absolute disgrace by Betfair to let it stand in a market a few minutes old and 24 hours before the match.It would be interesting to see what would have happened if this went to court. A palpable error by any definition. I'd bet 1.01 if Betfair had dumped 55k in a newly formed market by a "fat fingered" error they would have reversed it.Shocking behavior to let you be robbed like that on something that was so easy to resolve. Typical 2014 Betfair and another reason why they have drifted further away from their customers and get more and more loathed by them.
Got to agree that the bet would be quickly voided if Betfair or a bookmaker/large favoured customer was conned by the trap bet and lost this sum.
It really is a disgrace and very bad for Betfair long term.
In the past,Betfair have noticed a mistake hours before KO,voided the market and then wait until the result before
making a decision.
And every decision has been in their best intrest,and I've known them void a market and when exactly the same thing happened again,they waited for the result and all bets stood.
Thus, why the odds move in and out based on views and opinions rather than the unknown result.
Now, excuse me while I refill my water pipe....
(and crikey bayes - how much have your misclicks cost you
)it does annoy me that the site still gives that absurd message when backing anything over 100 when an error message when someone accidentally takes a trap bet (i.e. based on the delta from the last price matched on the selection, or the delta from the price on the sportsbook) would be genuinely useful.
betfair could also, at minimum cost, implement a automatic zero delay £2 block bet (using funds from the skimming bot) whenever a trap bet appeared.
i.e. market is 4.5 on the back side, 0 on the lay side. trap betting scum fires in a back at 46, betfair-trap-bet-block-bot puts up a back at, say, 32s when it looks at the bet and realises what it would do to the market and cancels it when trap bet scum cancels his bet.
I still don't really know how it happened. All I know I ended up backing a 1.01 shot that should have been 999/1
I guess I just wasn't concentration at the time.
My fault then I guess..... but still it shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Maybe they could stop it by only allowing you to put up one 1.01 on a market at a time or similar prices.
After I took the 1.01 by mistake I stopped betting here for months and still keeps away now from any of the quiet markets now even if I fancy something.......
I just lost trust in them. eg I alway wonder with them now has something happened now I might have missed......
Not good news for Betfair when its clients lose trust in their products imo
I let it run and Federer won. Lost me about 5 and a half grand iirc.
If it had lost I perhaps would've tried other recourse.
My errors are awful and continue. My last two:
Backing 1.01 in Set 3 market on Djokovic for 111k when fair value was 1.3 ish.
Obviously, I meant to have it on in the Match Odds market.
The other night in the Uruguay Costa Rica match.
Left 4444 from 3.0 to 3.9 as keep bets.
Forgot about them and when Costa Rica equalised they all got matched.
Fair Value 2.3 ish.
Such a mug.
Jun 20, 2014 -- 3:21AM, helper18 wrote:
On the trap bet problem,maybe BF could extend the space where the decimal point is or make the decimal point a different colour.
I said the same thing when I went to Hammersmith one time looking at platform ideas (market research).
Don't want to get into the whole discussion but it was difficult to make work consistantly because of changing prices, especially in-running.
Jun 20, 2014 -- 3:21AM, helper18 wrote:
On the trap bet problem,maybe BF could extend the space where the decimal point is or make the decimal point a different colour.
If you use Geeks Toy trading software, the grid view which replicates the BF model indicates how many tick gaps there are between the back and lay prices. If that were introduced on the Betfair site, that would go some way to preventing trap bets.
The majority of recreational bettors on here won't be using software for fast changing odds and won't even see them let alone have any problems with it, Bayes is obviously making a fair amount from the exchanges, so his fat fingers are just an ongoing expense he can afford, and to be fair he wanted to stick in exactly the same odds as the trappers so not too different.
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Jun 18, 2014 -- 3:13PM, TheInvestor2 wrote:
What do you mean Shapeshifter? That it's not mentioned in some set of formal rules?I'm not sure how that's relevant?
Technically, there is no way to differentiate between a trap bettor and someone putting up a price that they are asking.
As well, an exchange is a 'free way' for people to put up asks and offers that they are willing to have matched.
So if I feel a horse is not value at the off but is worth a flutter in-running because it is known of drop back and then take a stab, if I put up 120 at £2, that is my right. I'm not trapping anyone.
That said, if the early markets are going up on dogs, etc, and I see 4.6 and 50, yes, my gut says someone trying to deceive but who am I (or betfair) to judge their odds. If the dog goes off at 6.0 and he had 50 up and the dog came in last, his odds were possibly spot on.
You can isolate a subset of trap bets actually. For example people that lay overs at 1.01, 1.02 etc in football. If the market kicks off above that (which it almost always does) then the only purpose of those bets is as a trap bet.
Here is the issue I think: Let's say fair value is 10.00. If you lay 9.8 you may get a huge amount matched (call it x). If you lay 9.4, you may get some fraction matched (say 0.1x). At 9 you get 0.01x.
The problem here is that at odds below 9, your chance of getting matched becomes so low, that the cost of putting the money up becomes more than the profit. So ignoring people that put offers up in advance for when legitimate price moves occur, it makes sense to put bets up from 9-10, but anything matched below that is likely a total screw-up, so what you get is people offering 9-10 and then 1.01,1.02 etc. because it costs hardly anything. So these guys can sit there putting crap offers up everywhere getting perhaps 1 bet in 50,000 matched.
I know what I would do if I was Betfair: fill the exchange with offers 10% worse than sportsbook for huge money (on the liquid markets). When someone messes up they get 6 or 7 on a 10 shot and Betfair get the value themselves.
I often leave reminders up at 1.01 for positions during the day. i.e. I will go over horse racing in the evening and find it easier to put up a lay at 1.01 than having notes once the day gets rolling.
Largely agree, but one thing I must dispute is the last bit. If I'm putting up offers 24 hours before an event it's to have perhaps a 0.5% margin when the match is in running the next day and reaches that price. I'm categorically not interested in laying a 1.8 shot at 1.05 because of someone's fat fingers.
or at least a bot gone a bit mad
The trap bets obviously catch people cos there's either so little liquidity in those markets or too few people prepared to offer any value but I'd rather that than Investor suggestion of having Betfair decide what's fair value and what % we can offer either side may as well use the sportsbook if you want Betfair setting your odds. Like I said before I'd be very surprised if recreational bettors using the site get caught out just the ones of us using software who should probably be well aware of what goes on and take more care.
Jun 21, 2014 -- 7:43PM, SHAPESHIFTER wrote:
You can isolate a subset of trap bets actually. For example people that lay overs at 1.01, 1.02 etc in football. If the market kicks off above that (which it almost always does) then the only purpose of those bets is as a trap bet.I often leave reminders up at 1.01 for positions during the day. i.e. I will go over horse racing in the evening and find it easier to put up a lay at 1.01 than having notes once the day gets rolling.
That last part you said there is a major issue - many players who are not trying to trap bet do similar (I do) putting up much lower prices on markets just to hold your stake there, rather than trying to get matched - if someone accidentally takes it...
tick: confirm all bets
Problem solved.
The other, which I have yet to take onto the Dragon's Den, is a simple device that hooks up to your router.
BETFAIR BREATHALIZER
It works the same as the systems that get hooked up to ignitions that doesn't allow the car to start if you have been drinking.
Thus, if you go to betfair after 9PM and before 6AM, the system asks you to blow into a tube. If you are above a certain amount, your betting will be restricted to £2 on sports and locked out of all casinos, arcades and poker rooms.
Granted, this can be bypassed by convincing someone in the house (i.e. waking a child to do it) or having your dog do it (peanut butter over the end of the tube) but at that point, betfair has done everything possible to prevent you from waking up to discover:
a) you lost your entire bank on Australian and U.S. racing
b) you have managed to back all six dogs in the 11:03 at notts at 1.03 and have just 4 minutes to try to figure out how to minimize a potential £597 loss
c) You come home from the pub after watching England v Costa Rica in a snooze nil-nil match to discover you backed England Odds the night before.
The Bet-A-lizer
Someone has made thousands here:
over 5.5:
1.34 £295
1.36 £279
1.40 £90
1.43 £57
1.45 £6
1.46 £219
1.49 £163
1.52 £41
1.55 £163
1.61 £165
1.63 £160
1.65 £3 £154
1.68 £148
1.71 £142
1.74 £136
1.77 £130
1.81 £124
1.85 £134
3.90 £263
3.95 £434
5.00 £182
5.50 £199
8.20 £2
8.40 £3
8.80 £5
9.40 £200
11.00 £83
11.50 £53
12.00 £88
12.50 £147
13.00 £312
13.50 £104
14.00 £555
14.50 £373
15.00 £151
15.50 £1,470
16.00 £2,572
16.50 £646
17.00 £462
17.50 £83
18.00 £203
18.50 £27
19.50 £5
20.00 £4 £30
21.00 £26 £251
22.00 £38 £32
23.00 £41 £81
24.00 £348 £109
25.00 £345 £702
26.00 £96 £951
27.00 £67 £10
28.00 £40 £40
29.00 £128
30.00 £95 £15
32.00 £265 £4
34.00 £200
36.00 £200
38.00 £203
40.00 £220
42.00 £294
44.00 £202
46.00 £200
48.00 £250
50.00 £200
55.00 £218
110.00 £153
artie - kind of goes for all bad moves on here, not just the trap bets!
