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SHAPESHIFTER
04 Feb 14 11:23
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Date Joined: 04 Apr 03
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I've often said that in betting, the only people that profit from stats are the bookmakers.

Perhaps a simple view but on the surface, the past is not the best way to predict the future.

I've always taken the view that the 'context' of the stat is most important. 

The light bulb for me came in horse racing when I started developing my own ratings.  How quickly it becomes apparent that a horse who finished 6th can run faster than a horse that finished 2nd in another race.  Even without ratings, looking at the lengths behind the winner can carry greater weight than how a horse "places", a number assigned to when it crossed the line, not how it crossed the line.

But you listen to pundits who will say a horse has placed on its last three outings, the papers and bookies also taking that stance.

Another example is tennis stats.  I spent two year developing a rating that is given to a players performance.  Again, the numbers build pictures on a players ability rather than their win/loss percentage. 

Often, I will have a player go 3-1 in a tournament losing in the final.  It becomes the name that everyone remembers.  Meanwhile, another player went 1-1 against two better opponents and, in my book, gained some points in defeat and close to the player who went on.  From there, it is a matter of weighing out the value against the rankings.

Tennis will hit you with a flurry of stats.  But when you watch a match, again, the context then defines the weight you put on it rather than generalizing it.  Break Point stats say more about a player able to defend than a player able to attack their opponent.  And a solid serve percentage means less when it is over two sets.  The number of players, especially ranked in the mid-Top 100 whose service percentage drops rapidly in the third set are there.  Thus when against a player who pushes the points even over two sets will often falter during the crunch of a second set. 

The bookmakers greatest tease for a punter is the past encounters.  3-1 will say the stat and 1.60 if you back him.   But when one of those wins was in 2009 on a different surface than the match at hand, a line goes through it.

Then when you see that when they last met, the losing player was in the middle of a slump, losses flanked on both sides, again, the weight of that victory is questioned.

And in football, the 'form' stat is outdated.  With International, Cup and FA rounds in between,  the 'last six matches' is, again, a bookies dream.  Then, obviously, who were these teams they played?  A big difference between Man City and Fulham.

Scraping away at headline stats can often find value.  Similar to a 'diamond in the rough'

My latest koo is looking how teams perform IN DEFEAT rather than in victory.  On the weekend, Crystal Palace were expected to lose to Arsenal.  But value on backing Arsenal wasn't there.  The angle: Looking at the 'defeats', Crystal Palace still manage to play strongly in the first 45 minutes, their opponents needing to regroup at half-time to beat them.  Thus DRAW/ARSENAL the play at 7/2.

For U.S. sports, the stats on baseball are presented in such a way that the lights will never go out in Vegas or New Jersey.

Two seasons ago, I started looking at how teams did over certain intervals of a nine inning game.  It took a few twists and turns but eventually I found a strong window to rate a teams performance and it has nothing to do with the result but a period within the game.

When I put my 'ratings' against 'the standings', the differences were there and an edge was created. 

Bookies will put up 'Runs Per Game'.  No one puts up 'Runs per 9 innings'.  The extra innings in baseball are thrown into the stats.  There are no ties in baseball.  But, for me, if I am going to back a team, I want them to win in nine innings so that is the performance I look at, discounting the hits, the runs, the pitching during any extra period.

Last year, I built a picture on an NFL game (I believe it was Lions v Vikings).  Every way I approached it, the Vikings came out on top.  What the headlines said was that out of 11 visits to Detroit, the Vikings had only won twice.  The odds and line went that way.  I wagered on both and won.

A friend of mine who bets extensively on NFL created his own 'scoring' for matches.  A simple system that defines points for a type of score.  Examples, a field-goal merits one point.  A touchdown merits 3 to 5.  He also has a stat where each completed pass represents 'X' amount of yards.  No minimum or maximum ("one 70 yard pass/run with two 25 yard passes can totally skew the stats").  That was when we were in university together.  It is a bit more extensive now but still sticks to its roots.

I realize I've stated the obvious and, yes, stats are part of ones research.  But it is a matter of avoiding what I call 'the noise' and hype that stats can bring to an event.

Any views are, of course, welcome.

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Replies: 14
By:
donny osmond
When: 04 Feb 14 12:09
some stats are better than others

you are correct in that the bookies like to feed us stats that suit themselves
By:
TheVis
When: 04 Feb 14 12:37
I guess the main point here is that if the same stats are presented to everybody, which is what the media and the bookies do, then that is of no use to the masses as it all points to the same conclusion and a shortening of prices in one direction.

Great for those who keep their own different states as Shapeshifter says.
By:
SHAPESHIFTER
When: 04 Feb 14 16:56
Following the media is the worst. 

The other trick is to find the form for particular sports.  i.e. Baseball, finding 10 games works well with the pitching rotations.
By:
U.A.
When: 05 Feb 14 08:23
"I've often said that in betting, the only people that profit from stats are the bookmakers."

But then you talk about all this statistical analysis that you've done. This must mean 1 of 3 things.
1. You are a bookmaker.
2. You don't actually believe the things that you say.
3. You are a bit of a weirdo with nothing better to do who likes doing stats that he knows will not bring about a profit.

Which number are you?
By:
Deltâ
When: 05 Feb 14 08:37
My latest koo   Cry
By:
SHAPESHIFTER
When: 05 Feb 14 21:52

Feb 5, 2014 -- 8:23AM, U.A. wrote:


"I've often said that in betting, the only people that profit from stats are the bookmakers."But then you talk about all this statistical analysis that you've done. This must mean 1 of 3 things.1. You are a bookmaker.2. You don't actually believe the things that you say.3. You are a bit of a weirdo with nothing better to do who likes doing stats that he knows will not bring about a profit.Which number are you?


1. No, not a bookmaker but I'll often take the 'approach' when looking at an event.  I will weigh out the risks, etc, and take more than one position on an event.  My attitude is if you are going to spend time on researching an event, it's best to make the most of your time.

2. My wording did come across as contradictory.  But the main gist of it is that the public rely on the most basic of stats that are presented to them, usually by the bookmakers themselves.  The extreme is to create algorithms and extensive filters to 'predict the likeliest outcome'.  Around five years ago, with the help of a friend who (a) loves sports and (b) loves numbers even more, took the pythagorean theory as it is used in sports and took it further.  It works great for baseball but no other sports, perhaps because of the number of games per season.  I also created a set of basic filters that takes different weights on stats from football (soccer).  I then tried it live and though the returns on 1x2 were okay, it did create a filter that triggered around eight matches a week from fifteen leagues world-wide of odds against OU 2.5.  So where I may not believe in stats, I do believe in taking a different angle on all sports than research that is readily available and, as stated, placed like giant billboards in front of the betting public and repeated in a Clockwork Orange rehabilitation approach on in-play radio.

3. I believe that would be a masochist you are describing which, I believe, all of us in the world of plus/minus have in us.

By:
donny osmond
When: 05 Feb 14 22:18
surely you have to kiss a lot of frog stats before you find a prince stat
By:
U.A.
When: 06 Feb 14 09:40
Ok giving a more serious response, the bookies benefit from the stats because they generally offer prices worse than true value and stop all the people betting who are able to spot the occasions when the prices offered are actually better than value.

Let me ask you or anyone else who wants to answer it a question. What percentage of people who bet use stats to make their bets and what percentage of people bet on who they think the winner will be, or just a "feel" that the price is good value.

To give a response to the opening post it may be an unexciting and banal but it comes down to relevance and availability. The best stats are the most relevant and least available ones.
By:
SHAPESHIFTER
When: 06 Feb 14 12:27

Feb 5, 2014 -- 10:18PM, donny osmond wrote:


surely you have to kiss a lot of frog stats before you find a prince stat


Three things I have found that decreases the 'frog factor':

a)Look at things from a different angle which will give you edge.  So when you do create a rating (based on stats), then not just a matter of 'back-checking' but putting them in context of the conditions which then have to be noted.  This can't be easily done by back-dating.  Then, like my example, you might find something that you went in to find you 1x2 football and, instead, offers up U/O 2.5.  Right now, my tennis ratings are taking shape.  One of the parameters seems to be offering up total games that comes to a range of 16-19 whenever it flags up the underdog which has mixed results so I'll look at the margins of under/over for games rather than the result.

b) You have to be selective and realistic.  Your filter gives you four football matches out of ten that day.  Then treat it like 'preliminary research' then narrow it down to two going more indepth.

c) you have to bet live, not just on paper.  It might just be a fiver, but it shows the results and also means you feel it is a play where you should take on rather than speculate.

By:
DFCIRONMAN
When: 06 Feb 14 14:34
People in bookies ....my guess on percentages :_

1. Backing horses with their favourite jockeys riding em........15%

2. Backing "lucky" numbers.......................................5%.

3. Backing favourite............................................10%

4. Backing horses where DRAW might give them an advantage. ......3%

5. Backing a horse that won last time out........................5%

6. Backing because they like horses name or a colour in name.....3%

7. Backing top trainers horses................................. .3%.

8. Backing because they like colour of horse or look of horse... 3%

9. Backing 2nd or 3rd favourites................................ 3%

10.Backing newspaper or other napsters tips..................... 3%

11. Backing "whispers".......................................... 1%.

12. Backing on noting market moves.............................. 3%

13. Backing because they believe they have a "system"........... 5%

14. BACKING USING STATS in a crude fashion...................... 6%

15. BACKING WHERE THEY FEEL THE ODDS ARE VALUE.................. 1%.

16. BACKING BECAUSE THEY "BELIEVE" THEY KNOW WHAT THE WINNER
    WILL BE..................................................... 3%.

17. Other spurious reasons.....and they probably are under
    influence of alcohol or other drugs.........................28%



No idea what figures would be for BETFAIR punters.......but likely "pros" use STATS linked to VALUE bets mainly.
By:
scandanavian_haven
When: 07 Feb 14 02:53
Do you have any idea the number of players in Tennis who tank matches / tournaments ? it happens a lot and player retiring just after the first set. Betting on lower ranked players is precarious.

Also have to factor in other things, players who arrive at a tournament off the back of reaching the latter part of another, after a long haul flight (there in different countries every week of the year) and has had little time to prepare, there is a lot more to predicting the outcome of a tennis match then the %'s breakdowns of a players game.
By:
SHAPESHIFTER
When: 07 Feb 14 12:31

Feb 7, 2014 -- 2:53AM, scandanavian_haven wrote:


Do you have any idea the number of players in Tennis who tank matches / tournaments ? it happens a lot and player retiring just after the first set. Betting on lower ranked players is precarious.Also have to factor in other things, players who arrive at a tournament off the back of reaching the latter part of another, after a long haul flight (there in different countries every week of the year) and has had little time to prepare, there is a lot more to predicting the outcome of a tennis match then the %'s breakdowns of a players game.


Everything you listed, obviously, not in the stats.  But this is something that, yes, you can make note of.

This would go under the column of 'context'.

You can 'overthink' a selection, as well (I'm going through that right now with my racing selections.  Very frustrating).  But when I look at a bet, if I weigh in other factors like you mentioned, then it can come down to how much you wager rather than bet/no bet.

I once witnessed live Agassi playing in Montreal.  Being from the States, he had to come over the border into Canada to play.

He came on the court under the sun and just kept hitting the ball, angry.  My friend even heckled saying 'take the appearance fee and go home'.  Agassi never made eye contact with anyone and a total unknown advanced while Agassi headed for the exit in two sets and for the airport.

Being a border crossing, I guess the Crystal Meth wasn't easily available for hotel delivery Wink

By:
Roker_Park
When: 07 Feb 14 14:17
This is a decent article on the different factors that can influence the outcome of a tennis match, as another poster said, a player reaching the latter stages of one tournament and then flying thousands of miles for another has to come into your consideration before placing any bets.

http://www.tennisratings.co.uk/article---the-effect-of-situational-factors-in-a-tennis-match
By:
SHAPESHIFTER
When: 12 Feb 14 11:10
Roker...cheers for the article
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