Poor market depths and allowed bot use. > Betfair Community

Betfair Community

Home › General Betting Forum › Poor market depths and allowed bot use.

Switch to Community Classic App Directory

General Betting

‹ back to topics

There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.

These 61 comments are related to the topic:
Poor market depths and allowed bot use.

Switch to Live View refresh Post Reply

Post your reply

Page 2 of 2 • Previous | 1 | 2 | Next

sort by:

Show per page

Replies: 61

By:

Templeton Peck When: 12 Oct 13 15:19

Oct 12, 2013 -- 11:09AM, BJT wrote:

Oct 12, 2013 -- 10:48AM, Templeton Peck wrote:I'm talking 7-8% four or five days before an event starts. As for £2, I take that to mean a small amount, not necessarily £2. I could put down £1,000 and the bot might be £25, constantly replenishing and taking all the sub £25 bets. Days before an event, you tend to find smaller punters and so it's a significant barrier to seeding a market. I don't seed the market, the bot doesn't seed the market, the punters who arrive see nothing there and take their custom elsewhere. Many never come back. The result being dead markets until a few hours before an event starts and a reduction in the number of customers, especially small time punters.Of course, I could spend time trying to manipulate the bot, but it really is more hassle than it's worth nowadays.I don't think bots should be banned, I'm merely stating some facts.You do realise the contradiction though, surely?I'm talking 7-8% four or five days before an event starts. As for £2, I take that to mean a small amount, not necessarily £2. I could put down £1,000 and the bot might be £25, constantly replenishing and taking all the sub £25 bets. So there is 25 pounds there, 4-5 days before an event, in a 107-108% market, replenishing itself to be always there?Days before an event, you tend to find smaller punters and so it's a significant barrier to seeding a market. I don't seed the market, the bot doesn't seed the market, the punters who arrive see nothing there and take their custom elsewhere. Many never come back. The result being dead markets until a few hours before an event starts and a reduction in the number of customers, especially small time punters.So the main punters days before an event are punters looking to place sub 25 pound bets. In your words. Right?So they turn up, see 25 available, and due to it being more than they wish to put on, they are scared off by the lack of liquidity, in a 107-108% market?Ok then.If it is satisfying the majority of punters betting, at a price that is very competitive, offering enough liquidity for the people betting, then how the fcuk does your statement make any sense? If they are satisfying the punters that turn up, offering more than enough money for them, at a good price, then how aren't they seeding the market?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or dumb. If the former, I'm out of here. If the latter, please read my post again. You're omitting key sentences such as: "Days before an event, you tend to find smaller punters and so it's a significant barrier to seeding a market. I don't seed the market, the bot doesn't seed the market, the punters who arrive see nothing there and take their custom elsewhere."

By:

Templeton Peck When: 12 Oct 13 15:20

Oct 12, 2013 -- 11:59AM, subversion wrote:

this thread does sound a lot like one group of sharks complaining that another group of sharks are eating all their fish, and wanting the other sharks banned so the original sharks can have more fish with less competition

This is a common misunderstanding. The majority of us are saying:

Bots reliant on seeders prevents seeders from seeding.

By:

Templeton Peck When: 12 Oct 13 15:22

The problem with this is it results in dead markets until close to the event start. This is a major turn off to customers who want a bet and so take their custom elsewhere. They see Betfair as many of us 'sharks' see ****, i.e. not enough liquidity to make it worth us even logging in.

By:

subversion When: 12 Oct 13 15:27

so, what you are saying is

i) seeders seed the market
ii) bot (or manual player) comes along and offers better value (which is how exchanges are supposed to work)
iii) seeders complain that someone is offering better value

heres a hint. nobody has a divine right to be at the front of the queue. this applies to bots and manual players.

By:

TheInvestor2 When: 12 Oct 13 19:27

The only way to compete is for the manual player to become a bot.

Templeton Peck is right though "Bots reliant on seeders prevents seeders from seeding." Though this only applies in weak markets.

It's just that the solution to this problem is not to stop the bots, but to become (semi-) automated yourself.

By:

inner city sumo When: 12 Oct 13 19:42

Bots are a hassle for backers too. You have to spend time playing cat and mouse using a bogus lay to drag the bot away from its junk price to a reasonable one to get a back on. Who wants to spend 30 mins to get a back on? That's for punters who know what they're doing, beginners probably look at the market and either take the junk price not knowing any better, or come to the conclusion that Betfair odds are toxic and bet elsewhere.

It's too late to do anything about it anyway. The site has lost punters of all varieties because it is an unpleasant, and unreliable site to use. The site is essentially winding down to one that will only cater for the biggest events/markets, everything else will go through the sportsbook, or people will be betting outwith the Betfair empire altogether.

By:

Coachbuster When: 12 Oct 13 21:08

all this talk about bots giving better value than manual traders

bots give very poor value,but give decent value on the few times they are threatened ,which is most of the time as manual traders can't be ar$ed .

get rid of featureless bots ,get some recreational traders in ,make it a FUN place to be and watch the markets flourish with recreational players .

for the last 3 years, fun players have been looking at this site and running a mile

By:

Coachbuster When: 12 Oct 13 21:10

which is most of the time *

which is only some of the time

By:

Coachbuster When: 12 Oct 13 21:11

obviously on the high profile events bots blend in with the landscape - so i'm really talking about the nearly-dead markets

By:

Just Checking When: 12 Oct 13 21:52

The apt question here is, in these markets.. Lets consider theoretical case of this bot making a lay, and it is as stated a B365 tracker.
The bot is then just going to be laying from
1.01 to (B365price - arb - enough to make a profit).
The complainers are trying to say this is ruining the market but in reality this is a market seeding bot tracked on 365 optimising itself to maximise profit because the market allows it.
But back to the apt question : by definition anyone taking that lay on BF is getting crap odds, they should be on B365 and get the better driving odds as they must already exist. So ... "why"?

So the real failure... the REAL failure here, is the odds checker and b365 advertising depts

By:

Templeton Peck When: 13 Oct 13 12:59

subversion • October 12, 2013 3:27 PM BST
so, what you are saying is

i) seeders seed the market
ii) bot (or manual player) comes along and offers better value (which is how exchanges are supposed to work)
iii) seeders complain that someone is offering better value

heres a hint. nobody has a divine right to be at the front of the queue. this applies to bots and manual players.

Sigh. You almost got there. iii) should read: seeders don't bother wasting their time seeding a market as it's only being used helping a bot make money.

By:

Templeton Peck When: 13 Oct 13 13:03

TheInvestor2 • October 12, 2013 7:27 PM BST
The only way to compete is for the manual player to become a bot.

Templeton Peck is right though "Bots reliant on seeders prevents seeders from seeding." Though this only applies in weak markets.

It's just that the solution to this problem is not to stop the bots, but to become (semi-) automated yourself.

I'm afraid that's not the solution. All that would happen is the bot who's happy to take the smallest margin will be the one who gets matched. Why on earth would I want to seed a market well in advance of a market opening at a tiny margin?

I agree it's only an issue in weak markets, but these weak markets are becoming obsolete and deter customer from using Betfair. Betfair acknowledge this and are looking at ways at increasing liquidity and seeding of these weak markets.

By:

Templeton Peck When: 13 Oct 13 13:05

"in advance of a market opening" should read "in advance of an event starting"

By:

subversion When: 13 Oct 13 13:13

so come on then TP, whats your preferred solution?

other than banning people who offer better odds than you, of course

By:

subversion When: 13 Oct 13 13:22

and fyi, i'm in agreement with Investor - adapt.

By:

Swedebank When: 13 Oct 13 13:59

I really hate that 365 tracker bot. Been down for a little time so i hoped that i had disapeard but no no.. Back in full business again.

By:

BJT When: 13 Oct 13 14:13

So the obscure markets are the reason new punters come to Betfair and are then turned off by it? You don't think they are coming for the same markets everybody else bets on? Seems to me, the obscure markets are more likely bet by professionals, or astute punters at the very least.

People simply moaning that somebody is better at catching out false bets than they are.

By:

TheInvestor2 When: 13 Oct 13 14:29

Obscure markets being close to empty is actually quite a big problem I think. A lot of the fun bettors like to do all their betting in one place, so even if they understand Betfair is best value a fair bit of the time, they might still go to a traditional bookie because they can do everything in one account.

I think that was part of the rationale behind the sportsbook. I think doing 0.5% commission and somehow scrapping PC like they tried to do for rugby would help, but the payoff would be visible only after 1-2 years.

By:

Latalomne When: 13 Oct 13 15:12

Again, I agree with TheInvestor. Alongside liquidity, BF's other great strength was in it's vast array of markets available. While matched amounts might have been a fraction of what was available on the main markets, historically, those numbers have dropped off a cliff further on a number of sports of late. It all equates to one less reason for recreational punters to come to BF.

By:

Templeton Peck When: 14 Oct 13 22:17

Oct 13, 2013 -- 1:13PM, subversion wrote:

so come on then TP, whats your preferred solution?other than banning people who offer better odds than you, of course

I haven't even inferred bots/people should be banned, let alone said it outright. There is no solution to the issue I highlight.

As for adapting, I have. I now rarely seed markets, I've become a position taker waiting until closer to an event start to get involved. I expect my pre-PC winnings this year will be 50% higher than last year and 100% higher than the year before.

Some of you are confusing my confirming a problem exists with me throwing a hissy fit.

By:

Templeton Peck When: 14 Oct 13 22:19

Oct 13, 2013 -- 2:29PM, TheInvestor2 wrote:

Obscure markets being close to empty is actually quite a big problem I think. A lot of the fun bettors like to do all their betting in one place, so even if they understand Betfair is best value a fair bit of the time, they might still go to a traditional bookie because they can do everything in one account.I think that was part of the rationale behind the sportsbook. I think doing 0.5% commission and somehow scrapping PC like they tried to do for rugby would help, but the payoff would be visible only after 1-2 years.

Yep, Betfair are concerned by empty markets. They know a less-informed punter seeing this will be put off the site for good. As Latalomne says, the liquidity in plenty of side markets has disappeared until close to the event's start time.

By:

Ghetto Joe When: 15 Oct 13 13:23

Cross matching was trumpeted as providing liquidity to these side markets but never seems to have materialised, for any other punters using the main markets to feed derivative ones commission especially PC comms makes it a no go area.