Forums

General Betting

Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
Gin
19 Jul 13 11:24
Joined:
Date Joined: 02 Jun 03
| Topic/replies: 285 | Blogger: Gin's blog
Hi



As part of a wider review of Pricing at Betfair we have taken the decision to remove Transaction Charges from all Premium Accounts with immediate effect. Initially this is on a trial basis until 31st October 2013, if there is upside in terms of increased volumes and bet count then we will look to extend this further.



We believe this will help you with bet matching and in particular within markets where there are a number of runners.



Furthermore Betfair have also reduced the base commission rate to 0.5% for Asian Handicap markets in all Football matches. Again this is on a trial basis but the timings for this are from today (19th July) to 17th August when we will review the outcome.



Thanks



James





James Ellis

Premium Accounts Manager
Pause Switch to Standard View Removal Of Transaction Charges
Show More
Loading...
Report buzzer July 19, 2013 12:50 PM BST
This has been kept fairly quiet too

Betfair is pleased to announce we will be reducing commission in our Football Asian Handicap markets to 0.5%. This pricing trial has already started and will run until August 17th, whereby upon successful results we hope to roll out for the rest of the Football season.

This fixed rate will apply to all customers betting on these markets. The reduction will override any regional pricing, so your commission on these markets will be 0.5%.
Report ballabriggs July 19, 2013 2:32 PM BST
Can't remember the last time Betfair did something intelligent.  Finally looks like they are putting some thought into what they do.
Report hazel July 19, 2013 2:46 PM BST
How does this help premium charge payers who are just gamblers?  As far as I can see it only helps traders who have lots of bets and generate transaction charges.

Premium charge is still a killer for small players. 

60% will still be paid by people who win as little as £20 per week.
Report vonDiestelBoy July 19, 2013 2:52 PM BST
It's a present for the high-frequenzy in-run horse trading botters and the penny-pinchers who sqeezing hundreds of footy markets at the same time at the saturday afternoon and blocking/killing the API and website with the bots.
Report ballabriggs July 19, 2013 4:10 PM BST
"How does this help premium charge payers who are just gamblers?"

Yep, 0.5% commission on asian handicaps in no way helps people who are just gamblers,.... smh.
Report ann witt July 19, 2013 4:28 PM BST
Is that the 0.5% that will be reviewed on the 17th August when the football starts?

hazel & von are correct.
Report chrisblues July 19, 2013 4:48 PM BST
once paid pc   on winning week of  3 pound   and pc  came to 1..30p

high roller my a ss

they do need to look at sliding   thing  as most made their wack   in 2003 to 2007
Report chrisblues July 19, 2013 4:49 PM BST
i think there  must be a sliding scale  while  paying pc  year by year not in the past only seems right

5k a year   pc 5 %
10k a year  pc 10%
25k a year pc 20%
50k a year pc 25%
100k a year pc 30%

250k a year pc 40%
1 million a year 50%
Report pmbets July 19, 2013 4:52 PM BST
Total non starter for PC players.Will not help me a single penny.
Report chrisblues July 19, 2013 4:59 PM BST
see lots of  buses  on usa racing  driving between gaps on the market lottaluck

even   the chat room  on 1000 plus   before pc    and now it     a wimper of  avg 50 to 100 a night sad times
Report chrisblues July 19, 2013 5:03 PM BST
Fixed Odds prices on the Exchange

We are continually trying out ways to simplify betting on the site. One piece of feedback we receive regularly is that placing a single fixed odds bet is difficult due to having to switch between exchange and fixed odds prices.

So this week we have started a trial to remove this complexity by offering only fixed odds prices on markets where the exchange liquidity has been poor.

You can view this now by going to our event page on Irish Football Games or in the screenshot below.

Here is an example:
http://www.betfair.com/exchange/football/event?id=27033983


worry times if that happen on usa racing RIP
Report scoobytoo July 19, 2013 5:20 PM BST
whoopee
Report BetAngel July 19, 2013 6:15 PM BST
chrisblues, where did you see that / get that from?
Report viva el presidente! July 19, 2013 6:41 PM BST
BA:

https://betfair1.uservoice.com/forums/192891-general/suggestions/4199537-fixed-odds-prices-on-the-exchange
Report Total Bosman July 19, 2013 6:54 PM BST
I thought, if there was an "upside" to the PC, it was to discourage or at the very least suitably charge the automated bot-runners skimming risk-free profits from the exchange.  This is a bonus for these people, but for the "honest" PC payer (including myself) trading on opinion through the ordinary interface and putting no strain on the system, this is useless.  Surely they are rewarding / encouraging exactly the type of customer they want the least?
Report ballabriggs July 19, 2013 7:04 PM BST
ffs Betfair have done so many useless things, it is time to give them credit when they actually miraculously do something right.
Report viva el presidente! July 19, 2013 7:13 PM BST
true bb. it won't benefit me (and in fact will therefore probably negatively affect me in that it will benefit the competition), but at least for the first time in a while we're seeing some things happen that should boost rather than damage the exchange.

interesting to note that this is "part of a wider review". I wonder what the other bits will be?

also: a question. if the heavyweight bot players have no transaction charges, what safeguard is there against them hammering the servers so hard that they start falling over again on saturday afternoons?
Report Thin and Crispy July 19, 2013 7:23 PM BST
Sounds like a "Cunning Plan" worthy of Baldrick.
Report john23 July 19, 2013 7:44 PM BST
Ditto to Ballabriggs and Viva's sentiments.

A few on here have been suggesting BF need to lower the commission to take the likes of Pinnacle and SBO on in the soccer markets. It looks like they might do.

First time in an age that reductions have been suggested, albeit, trials.  Therefore, its a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned and a complete change the constant hikes that happened under previous management.
Report frog2 July 19, 2013 7:50 PM BST
Welcome news for those lucky enough to get the email. It allows market makers to do lots of markets at once.

The Asian handicap 0.5% is very interesting. They need to do it for the overs/unders markets and get rid of the PC on pre-play soccer and then IBC, pin and SBO will be under more pressure.
Report viva el presidente! July 19, 2013 8:51 PM BST
yeah, a while back I posted something along the lines of "remember the halcyon days of 1% asians? we'll never see that again"

well, happy to be proved 100% wrong.
Report hazel July 19, 2013 8:51 PM BST
Ballabrigs... The email was from the premium account manager.  The Asian handicap 0.5% may help you but for premium charge clients like myself it is useless, we still pay 60%.  The transaction charge removal only helps those that pay it, the heavy API users. 

So to conclude, it's a bit of a con trick by the premium account manager to try and make premium charge payers like myself think that we are getting something.

As I have said before, betfair's strategy is to divide and rule.  This situation is just another example.
Report JPG July 19, 2013 9:00 PM BST
"yeah, a while back I posted something along the lines of "remember the halcyon days of 1% asians? we'll never see that again"

That was so long ago I'd forgotten that used to be the case!!! :)

Definitely a move in the right direction, competing with the likes of SBO requires bold/aggressive moves like this.
Report jptrader July 19, 2013 9:30 PM BST
Is "Premium Accounts" the same as accounts paying premium charge?
Report viva el presidente! July 19, 2013 9:36 PM BST
no, jpt
Report ballabriggs July 19, 2013 10:02 PM BST
Divide and rule is an anathemical concept to what Betfair have done hazel.  Betfair have a CEO who they have given a ridiculous contract to, he is under pressure to shove up charges everywhere, left right and centre, and hope the damage doesn't filter through by the time he leaves in 2 or 3 years time with a bumper sack of loot.  To take any step of reducing commission, especially given the lunatic contract they gave him, is worthy of high praise and will have taken guts. 

If they're prepared to take these two steps, which are the first in years of this ilk, then the chances are that there may be more to come.  So stop whinging, give praise where its due, and talk about what steps you think they should next consider looking at.  The last few years Betfair has been run in an ultra short termist, cynical way.  These steps show there is some class in the current management iteration.
Report viva el presidente! July 19, 2013 10:20 PM BST
If they're prepared to take these two steps, which are the first in years of this ilk, then the chances are that there may be more to come.

----------

I'm not sure I see it that way. to me it's more likely they're going to replace the lost revenue elsewhere, very possibly through changing the discount system.

but, you know - moan about that when it happens. in themselves these are welcome moves - especially the 0.5% asians.
Report jptrader July 19, 2013 10:34 PM BST
So what is required to obtain the status of Premium account?
Report hazel July 19, 2013 10:35 PM BST
Complaining of Paying 60% premium charge on winnings as little as a few hundred each year is not whinging in my book.

Reading between the lines I would say that CEO is not being as forward thing as you describe.  I would say he his being short  termist in that he is trying to stop the decline in matching of bets in order to maximise his salary.  The email states quite clearly that if betfair don't see improvements in the very near future then these so called offerings will be stopped.  I don't think the cynical approach you mention has been cut, I would say it continues in full flow.

Yes a reduction in Asian commission is to be greeted with joy, but only joy for those not caught in the premium net.  Divide and rule.

I will keep complaining all the time small players like myself are treated unfairly in comparison with others, with a 60% premium charge.  It would have cost pennies to betfair to remove this injustice.
Report viva el presidente! July 19, 2013 10:44 PM BST
The email states quite clearly that if betfair don't see improvements in the very near future then these so called offerings will be stopped. 

-------

well, tbf any company that tried something which cost it money and saw no benefit would be likely to scrap it. that's not really cynicism, that's just common sense.
Report hazel July 19, 2013 11:06 PM BST
Viva I was replying to ballabrigs  statement... " The last few years Betfair has been run in an ultra short termist, cynical way"

You say...."well, tbf any company that tried something which cost it money and saw no benefit would be likely to scrap it. that's not really cynicism, that's just common sense"

It follows, that from these new short term proposals that, we can say that betfair have never been cynical, but always used common sense.

Of course people like you and ballabrigs like betfair when they act in a way that helps you.  My wish to the tooth fairy is that one day I too will like betfair.
Report viva el presidente! July 19, 2013 11:17 PM BST
why do you call them short term? the trial's short term, but unless you think they're flat out lying, there's a possibility that they'll be continued long term.

actually they won't affect any of the markets I usually work, so they don't really benefit me. they may even shift liquidity away from the ones I do work. and I'm no betfair apologist. I just think there's no point slagging them off when they do something positive.

apart from anything, how can we expect them to listen to customers if they get criticised whatever they do?
Report viva el presidente! July 19, 2013 11:22 PM BST
...and I don't see how anyone on 60%PC can call themselves a small player. even if you'd been on from day one, to qualify for it you'd have to have made more than the average UK wage over that time, tax free.
Report hazel July 19, 2013 11:29 PM BST
Viva I wish they would listen to customers.  Well they might listen to the ones they chose to listen too, but like heck I have tried to get them to listen to the unfairness of small time punters paying 60% premium charge.  It's obviously not a priority for them because it doesn't increase the salary and bonuses of the CEO.

Like I said early, these new changes are welcomed, but they only help non pc payers and those PC payers who  submit more then 1000 bets per hour.  Something to help the small time pc payer who doesn't use an API is long overdue.
Report lanza July 19, 2013 11:34 PM BST
very easy to be a small player and be in the 60% group.
Report hazel July 19, 2013 11:35 PM BST
Viva the pc was based on past performance.  If it was based on recent activity I would not complain.  Just think of someone earning 100,000 a year in the past who  now has annual income of  £1,000.  Would you tax them on past performance?  Doesn't happen in the world outside of betfair.
Report lanza July 19, 2013 11:36 PM BST
so true hazel... so true. Sad
Report ballabriggs July 20, 2013 12:02 AM BST
Hazel, if you are on 60% it is because you win almost every single market you play on, and have taken out at least 25k per year average over 10 years.  These Betfair moves are positive, and ignoring them by saying you want to have more benefits personally from a site you were paying around 5% commission on your winnings to, at the rate of 25k+ a year for 10 years, is ridiculous.  Divide and rule is also a completely bonkers reference.
Report hazel July 20, 2013 12:25 AM BST
Ballabrigs you are confusing past with present.  Historically it may be 5%, but that was the past.  I am as good as on 60% for life.  Yes I could get it to 50%, but I would have to bet huge amounts of money, money I don't have.  It would take so many years to get on 50% that I would statistically be dead.

Divide and rule is very appropriate.  If you recall betfair made big play of the fact that the premium charge only affected a very small percentage of customers, and the majority need never worry.  In my book that's divide and rule.

The fact that non pc payers are concerned with commission rates, and pc payers have no benefit from any reductions is of no consequence to the majority.  Yet another example.

The fact that only heavy API pc payers who submit more than 1000 bets per hour benefit from the removal of transaction charges and not the other pc payers is yet another division.  And confusion of the charging system.

Why are we arguing now??  You might say I am bonkers, I might say that you are only seeing things from your perspective.
Report lanza July 20, 2013 12:27 AM BST
if someone has won 25k on average for the last 10 years...id say well done... weall aspire to win here but why should betfair charge them more than some dimwit thats just joined?

i had my biggest winning market a few wks ago, won 16k, paid the com 600 and nearly 3k pc.  joe blogs signs up and if he'd placed the same series of bets would be 3k better off. Now if this market had been settled with me in the super pc net, id have been pc'd for about 8k+...now thats bonkers.
Report mardock July 20, 2013 12:35 AM BST
if you are on 60% it is because you win almost every single market

Bullsh1t

In June I won 125k € from profitable betfair markets and lost 113.5k € from unprofitable betfair markets and I'm 60% payer. 81 market green 42 market red. In fact that was very bad month, but I just want to show you, that even with a lot of big losses you can still pay 60% premium charges.   

One more think to notice:

11.5k € - that should be my profit from June, but unfortunatelly I paid 14k € Premium Charges in June so Betfair managed to finally make first time my monthly income negative.
Report lanza July 20, 2013 12:50 AM BST
dont worry mardock... atleast you now have a buffer on the next few winning weeks.
 
is..another bonkers thing on here that i often find amazing when people mention it.  Happy to lose to off set future winning weeks - crazy.
Report viva el presidente! July 20, 2013 3:03 AM BST
sorry, I went out for a couple of pints.

all I'm saying is it's stretching the definition of a small time punter beyond breaking point to apply it to anyone with over 250K net tax free winnings over 12 years or probably less.

it may be the product of a lot of hard work, it may be admirable, it may be the result of an edge that's disappeared, but whatever it is it's not small time in a sense ordinary people would understand.
Report Getafix July 20, 2013 8:10 AM BST
Maybe I am cynical, but I am surprised no-one has mentioned the timings of these trials.
The fact that the trial period for 0.5% comm on Asian Hcaps is (initially) from today until the 17th August means there will be little in terms of football matches of any real volume, given that English football starts 17th August.  Maybe some of the high volume European leagues start before then?

A quick look at today's in-play matches (8am 20/07/2013) shows for all matches only GBP 8,026 has been matched (on "Match Odds" markets). Will be circa £0 on Asian Hcaps I would guess?

The cynic in me says, when 17th arrives and there is no improvement in volume, it will be scrapped, but at least the shareholders can be told "we have trialled 0.5% etc".  Why not hold the trial until the 31st October like the transaction charge trial period?  Seems too convenient for me... anyway, I hope to be wrong :)
Report Getafix July 20, 2013 8:14 AM BST
Btw, I was referring to Eng Prem league.  Maybe Championship and lower leagues start earlier?  But I wouldn't expect them to be of interest to customers who typically bet on Asian Handicaps...(the East)
Report Getafix July 20, 2013 8:17 AM BST
Why not have the 0.5% trial on "Match Odds" markets?
Report frog2 July 20, 2013 8:45 AM BST
Is it even true? Looking at tonights football Mexico V T&T and it says for the handicap markets...

Commission on this market
5% Market Base Rate (minus your discount)
Report Mr.Anderson July 20, 2013 10:32 AM BST
I've found some matches where it's 0.5%. The friendlies today (e.g. Indonesia XI v Liverpool), the Danish Superleague, and Swedish football.

For the matches where it's 0.5% on Asian Handicaps, it's also 0.5% on TOTAL GOALS. So if people could move from over/under markets to Total Goals that would be great :) And hopefully some of the match odds money finds its way to the -0.5 Asian handicap markets.

Also can anyone confirm if it's still 3% implied commission on these markets? You should be able to tell from how many Betfair points you got from any losing bet on these markets. (If so it's a great change also for PC payers.)

Personally however I'm on holiday right now, and will not be placing many bets before the 18th of August however nice this change is. Fingers crossed that they don't cancel the trial before proper football starts...
Report Mr.Anderson July 20, 2013 11:45 AM BST
I have never bet on Asian Handicaps before, but I thought that when you bet live on Asian handicaps goals already scored do not count? Am I right? The Betfair helpfile doesn't mention anything about this? http://en.learning.betfair.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5380
Report Mr.Anderson July 20, 2013 2:55 PM BST
To reply to myself I can say that it looks like goals already scored in the match DO count if you bet in play here.
Report CLYDEBANK29 July 20, 2013 3:28 PM BST
Perhaps I'm being dumb here but the market base rate on Asian h'cap lines is showing as 5% not 0.5%?
Report TheInvestor2 July 20, 2013 9:55 PM BST
Mr.Anderson
Date Joined:     07 Oct 10
Add contact | Send message
20 Jul 13 10:32 Joined: 07 Oct 10 | Topic/replies: 337 | Blogger: Mr.Anderson's blog

[...]
For the matches where it's 0.5% on Asian Handicaps, it's also 0.5% on TOTAL GOALS. So if people could move from over/under markets to Total Goals that would be great :)
[...]

Total Goals has always been an inherently better market than the over/unders anyway, as you save on commission when betting on multiple selections (when you have positions backing say 3 or more and laying 2 or more etc. you pay commission on the whole thing rather than each individual market in the over/unders.

I started out trading only total goals. I moved to over/unders when my trades got bigger, due to the far superior liquidity. The terrible tick size in asians and total goals discourage market makers as well.
Report Getafix July 20, 2013 10:12 PM BST
That's interesting TheInvestor2, I'd never considered the market offset commission of total goals versus over/unders.  Are all the sections of the Asian Handicaps page (per match) also offset against each other with respect to commission (i.e., the Asian Hcap page considered a "market" in itself)?
Report Mr.Anderson July 21, 2013 8:58 AM BST
Clydebank: It's not (yet?) 0.5% for all matches. I gave some examples above. Today it's 0.5% for the women's Euro, and most, but not all of the friendlies. If you look at matches further into the future it usually still says 5%.

This is copied from Sweden (W) v Iceland (W)/Asian Handicaps: "Commission on this market
0.5% Market Base Rate (minus your discount)". For Total goals it says: "Commission on this market 0.5% (no discounts allowed)". So maybe you even get a discount on the Asian Handicap market? I had a win on Total Goals yesterday, and paid 0.5% (no discount as expected).


Investor: I agree Total goals tick sizes could do with a change.


Getafix: Yes, that's what the help file says: "In addition, commission on these markets is taken from total winnings on the market across all lines." (http://en.learning.betfair.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5380).
Report Getafix July 21, 2013 10:03 AM BST
Thanks Mr.Anderson, that certainly makes these markets of much more interest, but only if, like you asked earlier, that the implied commission is still 3%?  Nothing to say it isn't (no disclaimer in original email to say otherwise).  So it must still be 3%.

It seems these 0.5% commission rates have only been marketed to PC payers, has an email circulated to non-PC payers?  Would seem a pointless trial if not?
Report Simon-Manns-parole-officer July 21, 2013 10:24 AM BST
Just like to add my voice to those welcoming this as a potentially positive move. Generally find myself in agreement with those voices who worry about the negative direction of betfair in recent years and would be delighted to see a change in direction.

0.5% on asian handicaps needs much more than a month to show real results. We all know that the real business of football is done on the asian markets, an area betfair appeared to have abandoned in recent years, but it will take time to re-build liquidity and volume.

A step in the right direction.
Report ballabriggs July 21, 2013 6:55 PM BST
To be in the top 10% of earners in GB, you have to earn 47k or more gross.  So with a tax take of just over a third, that leaves you with circa 30k net. 

Hazel has made a minimum of this level of profit for a minimum 8 years, hardly paying anything in commission at all to Betfair.  To pretend you are small time when you are pulling in money which puts you in the top 10% of earners in the country for 8 years, and that it would "only cost Betfair a few hundred" to give him, erm, several thousand pounds a year back, is just daft.  Well done to people like frog2 who have put forward sensible suggestions, like with the Asian Handicaps, which at least have reached a trial stage.  As for hazel, you misrepresent your position at least heavily, at worst more so.
Report chelseagirl July 21, 2013 7:26 PM BST
Does the removal of Transaction Charges effect everyone or just people who have "Premium Accounts"?

I can't see an official announcement anywhere.
Report hazel July 21, 2013 8:56 PM BST
Ballabrigs I don't want to fall out over this.  Perhaps I have not made myself very clear.

I pay pc because of my past winnings.  This year I hope to win about £1000 or there abouts from my gambling. I don't ever envisage myself winning at the rate I did in the past.  I do consider myself a small time player now ( emphasis on now).

For my sins I pay 60% .  There is no realistic chance of that ever changing under current rules.

Whereas people on here win sums far greater than me (you guess, they may win £10,000 or even 100,000). And they pay a lesser rate than myself.  Perhaps 20% or 40% based on their past performance.

Yes if I was to win £10,000 this year, then maybe I deserve to pay 60%.  But I won't

Winning strategies don't necessarily last forever.  But regardless, I am now a small time player winning small amounts, yet paying 60% each week.  That is my grievance.  Ok, you may have no sympathy for me, and say I got what I deserve, but it doesn't take away the fact that even if I win £20 per week from now on I will continue to pay 60%.. Yet others will win far more and pay a lower percentage.

As they say in the city,  past performance is not necessarily a guide to future profits.

I can't really make my case any more than that.  So I will leave it at that and say good luck.
Report frog2 July 21, 2013 9:14 PM BST
Trouble is how can the liquidity be generated from the levels it is now? They are starting with a very small trial time and it doesnt appear to being advertised.

There is immediately liquidity elsewhere of at least £10k (for all but the minor leagues) at a combined book of 101-102% with no commission and more importantly no PC if you win over £250k.

Its going to be tough to get the genuine punters to move over and traders dont really need a cut in basic commission.

Its a positive step but if they were really serious they would say winning bets are excluded from PC calcs and guarantee that these terms will be inplace long term (e.g. 18 months min to take us through the next world cup).

They would also need to attract the east asian punters like they have the asian cricket punters.
Report CLYDEBANK29 July 21, 2013 10:33 PM BST
fwiw you need to earn £39,973.00 per annum to take home £30k....£6,107 in tax and £3,866 in NI
Report CLYDEBANK29 July 21, 2013 10:40 PM BST
Transaction charges prolly don't effect more than 50 people imo.  No need for an official announcement.  The Football Asian Hcap markets are priced up in running by only 1 person.  Prolly they want more competition and better prices for advertising/comparison reasons.
Report Simon-Manns-parole-officer July 21, 2013 10:46 PM BST
frog2. You're points are all correct. If they are going to do this, it will take time to have an effect and needs to be well advertised. The business exists, they use to have a decent bit of it,
they need to lure it back and some. A months trial will tell you very little about the long term benefits of making such a move permanent.
                                                                                                  I just hope this is a first small step back to where they need to be.
Report Getafix July 21, 2013 10:56 PM BST
A quick calculation, I see Hazel joined betfair in 2001 (forum at least)...  The earliest member of betfair, from the forum, I have ever seen is year 2000. So if Hazel did well from day 1, an average over 12 years works out at about 21k per year (considering a total of 250k winnings).  Anyone, deciding to punt for a living is risking many things, including future employment etc...I can't see many employers seeing a gap of 12 years as a good thing.  Hazel, I see, was one of the first to join Betfair, loyalty rewarded by a 60% tax rate!  Not even the government (UK) taxes people as high as 60%!  The government doesn't also backdate tax based on past performance, it is based on the previous 1 year - something betfair could possibly learn from!

One thing, not often mentioned is the impact PC has on high net individuals, 250k profit is not much to someone who can afford to bet large amounts on a regular basis (bets in over 1000 markets - easily done over a few years imo).  This type of customer will no longer bet on betfair which has a huge impact on the "ecosystem". 

On another note, transaction charges... these have very little impact on PC players, the amounts such players bet means they pay large amounts of commission which offsets the transaction charges by quite a margin (for position takers).  This therefore only benefits the heavily botted PC traders (where watching the market dynamics is more important than estimating form etc).  This can only mean one thing, a heavier burdon on BF's servers and probably more problems when Betfair can't cope with the high number of transactions (i.e., Saturdays around 3pm).
Report viva el presidente! July 21, 2013 11:06 PM BST
hazel, though, by his own admission is a very unusual case. how many people are there going to be out there on 60% now hoping to make 1000 a year? even without the PC, most of the few people in that situation would pack it in as the returns don't justify the effort.

this is not the kind of case that BF can be expected to tailor policy to.

not that I in any way support the higher rate PC. I'm just saying.
Report CLYDEBANK29 July 21, 2013 11:30 PM BST
The Asian h'cap market is an automated market, probably about the best example of a bot derivative market.  Someone's got to build a bot to compete with the guy that has the only bot running the market, which takes time and why build a bot if you think the market will revert back to a base rate of 5%, because surely you'd have done it already.  You are not going to stick up prices manually on a derivative bot priced market, unless there is a lot of action, so I don't really know where this particular move can go positively, since they seem to be only targeting premium account people to provide prices on essentially dud football games.  Although saying that they maybe only need to persuade 1 extra person.
Report CLYDEBANK29 July 21, 2013 11:38 PM BST
Come to think of it this..You are not going to stick up prices manually on a derivative bot priced market, unless there is a lot of action is the reason why it is almost impossible for **** to compete
Report cpfc4me July 21, 2013 11:42 PM BST
Hazel is not that unusual. Well, he might be, but his situation isn't.

As has been suggested above, anyone earning close to an average UK income since the early days will have reached 250k by now, which would include all the pros, or at least all those who had an average paying job previously. It's these people I feel most sympathy for. Imagine quitting a job, and all the hidden benefits (pension, share schemes, paid holidays, future promotions etc.) to trade full-time, and then find that your 5% commission increases to first 20% and then later to 40%, 50% or 60%. The way these charges were introduced is of course inherently unfair - some people may have been over 250k already, while others like myself were already close enough that the higher rates were inevitable. People made their money based on the rules at the time, and the rules changed overnight. And they may well change again. That 250k limit could easily become 100k or 10k. It's hard to think of any other business that could have got away with this, but the answer is that Betfair are a de facto monopoly and can do what they like.

The recent transaction charge changes don't help me one bit, I have never paid any, and the Asian Handicap trial at 0.5% simply means I would pay less commission at settlement tome, and more at PC deduction time. The 3% implied commission on AH losses might come in handy though.
Report CLYDEBANK29 July 21, 2013 11:42 PM BST
Bookmakers obviously don't have the same problem as **** because they control all the prices and the action so they can compete.  In essence it is this inability to compete for that fundamntal reason why we have the premium charge and why Betfair has been unable to grow the exchange market as big as the financial markets once assumed it would
Report CLYDEBANK29 July 22, 2013 12:10 AM BST
The reason the premium charge was/is both retrospective and lifetime, rather than the much fairer option of from scratch at implementation, and annual, is because if you have an annual exemption or non retrospective charge, people will be inclined to bet up to their exemption or profits limit.  By making it retrospective it locked people in, in terms of both the maths and the psychology.
Report CLYDEBANK29 July 22, 2013 12:27 AM BST
That was a fundamental reason why they changed the initial PC1 version based over 60 weeks to PC2 based over your lifetime.  PC1 was only retrospective for a period of 60 weeks, so it only locked you in for 60 weeks.  After 60 weeks you could determine your own destiny in a fair way as opposed to being locked in, you could choose to reduce your betting so it fell under the PC limits.  By making it a lifetime charge they had you locked in for good.
Report chrisblues July 22, 2013 1:18 AM BST
well said hazel

that what i have been trying to say

can be   as low as

to win £20 per week from now on I will continue to pay 60%.

that  no high roller 

it deffo  need to be looked at
Report viva el presidente! July 22, 2013 12:49 PM BST
I agree with many of your points cpfc. but I just cannot accept that there are that many people out there who made 250K+ net and are now basically betting recreationally - which is what "hoping to make £1000 this year" implies.

being on 60% is unusual considering the whole user base. being on 60% and having no real edge is... well, there'll be a few out there, but they're not going to have to hire a particularly big room for the meeting.
Report frog2 July 22, 2013 12:59 PM BST
To be on 60% you have to have only paid a max of 5% of your total winnings in commission. To do this you are either an exceptional punter (on 2% commission you are talking about a long term 20% return on stakes) or you are trading or market making.

It seems the 50% and 60% are attempting to claw back previous high winnings that whoever devised the scheme was jealous of. If it wasn't there would be no need to set some people at 40% and some at 60%.
Report pmbets July 22, 2013 4:32 PM BST
Agree with frog2 100% here.Betfair have become a very jealous company and would love to get hold of some of the previous
winnings that people on 40%-60% have earn't.What really gets me is that Betfair act as a de facto monopoly and
there appears to be no one (gambling comission etc) who is running to the customers defense.
The problem with Betfair is is people like frog2 and myself that believed in the founding fathers vision of a punter v punter exchange
against the big bad bookie.We was encouraged to work hard /spent a fortune of research(form books/buying race cards US($1.50 each x gazzillion $ over 10+ years).
Not only did we work hard in gaining a very small edge but we gave 1000's of free hours of our own time promoting betfair.
However it is now the same people who want a slice of that cake that for most has long since gone having spent it over the years(Yes Betfair winners like to go on holiday now and again)
That;s what really gets me frog2 that no one is investigating if it really okay for a bookmaker(which betfair is)to discriminate
for past winners which they encouraged and to actively try to get that money back.
It must have cost Betfair 10x more money is extremely bad publicity over the PC years than if the charge was never introduced at all.
I see the negative impact of the PC been Betfairs demise over the next 5 years.
Report DOUBLED July 22, 2013 6:19 PM BST
Wont last 5 years if the current exchange trend continues imo Shocked
Report TheInvestor2 July 22, 2013 9:47 PM BST
frog2 22 Jul 13 12:59 Joined: 01 Feb 08 | Topic/replies: 524 | Blogger: frog2's blog
To be on 60% you have to have only paid a max of 5% of your total winnings in commission. To do this you are either an exceptional punter (on 2% commission you are talking about a long term 20% return on stakes) or you are trading or market making.

It seems the 50% and 60% are attempting to claw back previous high winnings that whoever devised the scheme was jealous of. If it wasn't there would be no need to set some people at 40% and some at 60%.


The thinking goes that 60%ers and to a lesser extent those on 50% are often doing things like hoovering or taking advantage of a non-gambling skill related edge. Betfair care less if they leave than they do for 40%ers. Of course there will be people on 60% who are simply pursuing risk averse legitimate trading strategies, and that's just collateral damage.

Lower rate super PC starting at 30% would be a lot more reasonable.
Report Getafix August 20, 2013 12:21 PM BST
Furthermore Betfair have also reduced the base commission rate to 0.5% for Asian Handicap markets in all Football matches. Again this is on a trial basis but the timings for this are from today (19th July) to 17th August when we will review the outcome.

I see the matches are back up to 5%, is that it then?  Was it deemed a failure or is this still being reviewed?
Report bingo bongo August 20, 2013 12:46 PM BST
Extended until December at at rate of 0.75%. See announcment in the football forum Asian Handicap - Commission.
Report Getafix August 20, 2013 1:14 PM BST
Thanks. I didn't see that. That is good news. To save anyone else looking:

Betfair is pleased to announce that from Saturday we will be fixing commission in our Football Asian Handicap markets at 0.75%. This pricing promotion will run until December 3rd, whereby upon successful results we hope to roll out for the rest of the Football season.

This fixed rate will apply to all customers betting on these markets. The reduction will override any regional pricing, so your commission on these markets will be 0.75%.* Any Asian handicaps that are currently displaying 5% will benefit from this, but this will be done in the form of a refund.

Get involved now to make this a success and ensure you are able to take advantage of this reduced commission throughout the new season.
Report sun September 12, 2013 8:32 PM BST
Thanks for re-posting the above (from Announcements on the football forum some weeks ago). How do we view old announcements?

The reason I ask is when I go to an Asian Handicap market tonight, it sometimes says 0.75% and sometimes 5% commission (for the SAME market!). Probably this is just some issue with my browser, or with the New new site. But the paranoid side of me says, they've hidden the announcement, and now they're upping the commission rate!
Report siwaadupa September 12, 2013 11:05 PM BST

Jul 21, 2013 -- 2:56PM, hazel wrote:


Ballabrigs I don't want to fall out over this.  Perhaps I have not made myself very clear.I pay pc because of my past winnings.  This year I hope to win about £1000 or there abouts from my gambling. I don't ever envisage myself winning at the rate I did in the past.  I do consider myself a small time player now ( emphasis on now).For my sins I pay 60% .  There is no realistic chance of that ever changing under current rules.Whereas people on here win sums far greater than me (you guess, they may win £10,000 or even 100,000). And they pay a lesser rate than myself.  Perhaps 20% or 40% based on their past performance.Yes if I was to win £10,000 this year, then maybe I deserve to pay 60%.  But I won'tWinning strategies don't necessarily last forever.  But regardless, I am now a small time player winning small amounts, yet paying 60% each week.  That is my grievance.  Ok, you may have no sympathy for me, and say I got what I deserve, but it doesn't take away the fact that even if I win £20 per week from now on I will continue to pay 60%.. Yet others will win far more and pay a lower percentage.As they say in the city,  past performance is not necessarily a guide to future profits.I can't really make my case any more than that.  So I will leave it at that and say good luck.


Well said Hazel. Im on PC as well, and have to live with it. Im trying to run my own bussines very slowly right now and I dont believe in bf anymore. They have started being unfriendly, greedy, as they became public company on London Stock Exchange. They needed money from printing a shares and shareholders are the owners right know. The have a same thinking as Phone Operators Companies, Banks and any other companies who offer service to a massive group of audience. The are on short term vision(next 0,5 year-1 year) And they are not caring about future. They seems to not see what is going around(daq) and I wonder if some day the may end as Nokia did.
Competition Can decrease their charges. Nothing else!

Report Getafix September 13, 2013 5:41 PM BST
"sun", what is also confusing is that some markets i.e., Hertha Berlin vs Stuttgart tonight (http://sports.betfair.com/Index.do?mi=110844246&ex=1&origin=MRL)

has the text:

0.75% Market Base Rate (minus your discount)

which if, say, you are on 60% discount amounts to an effective commission of 0.3%

the text in the "Total Goals" market which is also considered Asian handicap (http://sports.betfair.com/Index.do?mi=110844189&ex=1&origin=MRL)

Says:
0.75% (no discounts allowed)

Seems strange they are charging different commission amounts considering these are both Asian Handicap markets?  Maybe the wording here is incorrect?
Report schnyder_fan July 22, 2018 2:38 PM BST
Is this still going? Are premium accounts still transaction charge free?
Report PeteTheBloke July 23, 2018 12:14 AM BST
My understanding is that they sneakily replaced it with a charge for more than 1000 bets an hour. You'll
be hard-pressed to find the record of charges because they soon get lost in your accounts if you are
doing more than 1000 bets an hour, which you are, if you see what I mean.
Report Bud July 23, 2018 11:31 AM BST
Am I right in thinking that if I process 999 transactions an hour there is no charge but if I process 1001 transactactions an hour I will get charged £10.01 (ie 1p per transaction)?
Report TheBaron July 27, 2018 10:22 AM BST
You will be charged 1p for each transaction over 1000 made in 1 hour.
Report CLYDEBANK29 July 27, 2018 10:52 AM BST
For some reason if I go on to cancelled bets I have a bet there from March 2006.  The bet there has a bet ID of just over 2 billion.  The last bet I placed had a bet ID of 131  billion.  I'm pretty sure Betfair was quite close to it's peak by then although obviously growing rapidly.  I've estimated that just over 10% of matched turnover was achieved by then but with only 1.5% of the bets processed.  So perfectly understandable that they should introduce it.  An ever increasing number of transactions that don't reault in any business.
Report aye robot July 27, 2018 12:49 PM BST
Transaction charges are of-set against commission. Assuming you're matching a reasonable proportion of your bets you are unlikely ever to pay. You're only likely to pay if you're cancelling the bulk of your transactions, if you're placing bets that are very unlikely to match or if you're simultaneously placing transactions that net to zero.

Whilst the racing's on I doubt a single hour goes by without me breaching the 1000 transaction mark but I've never been charged even once.
Post Your Reply
<CTRL+Enter> to submit
Please login to post a reply.

Wonder

Instance ID: 13539
www.betfair.com