sign in if you have no idea how Premium Charge works in practice

If it's a lot Betfair will take all the withdrawal back

how can they once it's in your bank account?

If you ever put any money back into your betfair account Betfair will immediately take any needed to make up any premium charges. But if you never fund your betfair account again they don't take anything (or demand you pay anything).

so you total available could be say £1000 on Tuesday night, and then you log in on Wednesday and PC has deducted and it's now £950 or whatever?

is that literally how it happens?

Yes.

And just to clearify. Neither of my posts on this thread are meant to be a "signing in"

wow. thanks. and how much do they deduct from your bank each week? is it percentage based?

It's got nothing to do with your bank size.
  It's based on last weeks profit and could be anything ranging from a penny to 59% of last weeks net profit.
The amount/percentage they take in PC is based on Your win/loss ratio from that week and on what % PC you are on.
Minimum PC % is 20 and maximum is 60.

"If you ever put any money back into your betfair account Betfair will immediately take any needed to make up any premium charges. But if you never fund your betfair account again they don't take anything (or demand you pay anything)."

That is not true  They can and will take any premium charges due from your bank account if they want to EVEN IF you don't have the money in your bank account!

they can't take money from a bank account. no company can without your "agreement"

What I mean is they can reverse the withdrawal even if you have subsequently withdrawn that withdrawal from your bank.  In practice I'd imagine there is a time frame where if they go beyond it they are not able to do it.

not true 3setpoints

so my bank will allow anyone to take money from my account without my "agreement" ? and that isn't fraudulent?

Of course not.  What I said was that Betfair have an agreement in place whereby they can reverse payments they make to you if those payments turn out to be made in error.  What the parameters are for that agreement I have no idea other than it is still in force for a period after they have appeared as cleared funds.

Are you sure about that? Do you remember the problem Betfair had with their poker tournaments a few years back... A group of users realised they could work together to make the system pay out too much prize money. They repeatedly exploited this and withdrew their money. As a result of this, Betfair introduced an extra delay to payments, presumably so that they could halt withdrawals if they spotted these kind of exploits. If Betfair could just reverse any withdrawal, they wouldn't have needed to do this.

This is what happens if you withdraw before they manage to take their cut.



Dear XXXXXXX,

I am writing to inform you that due to recent premium charge and transaction charge deductions, your account, XXXXXXX, has gone into a negative balance of £-330.24.

We kindly ask that you deposit the above amount into you account to bring the balance back to zero as soon as possible.

Thank you for your co-operation in this matter.

Kind regards

Jack Peachey
Premium Account Executive

vip@betfair.com

http://www.betfair.com

VIP Helpdesk - 0844 209 0000
VIP Fax 0207 074 7326
Ireland 1-800 944 000
Australia 1300 238 324
Canada Toll Free Tel: 1-866-381-7119
Free Fax (Australia) 1- 800 507 774
International 0044 203 059 8888

Betfair
PO Box 34467
London
W6 9WS

For info on all our current promotions, click here: http://www.betfair.com/promotions

JML you get that letter if the premium charge due is £300.  But if it is £30,000 they will just take it back.

I know this because this is exactly what happened to my closest acquaintance on here, who because he paid 60% in charges was forced to quit.  He got a very different letter.

If he owed £30K, and that money was taken by Betfair,it means he cleared £20K for himself that week.


Why exactly did he quit?

I Guess 20 k a week isn't what it used to be ?

JML if you bet like he did you might win nothing for several months.  His whole year would depend on 2 or 3 results.  Impossible with a premium charge of 60% on top of basic commission, that doesn't get refunded if you subsequently lose, and even if it was refunded with liquidity falling, it getting more difficult, and Betfair taking 60% + off everything he earned he had no option but to quit.

i cant even be bothered wasting valuable life trying to work it out so i just moved on and use another exchange simples
i only use BF for the forum these days lol

I'd say it's impossible for anyone to break even for months and still be on 60 % PC.

Clydebank was he essentially just trying to pick winners and chasing with large amounts then?

Eddie someone buying and selling properties may buy 5 properties in a year.  On 3 of them he makes 30k and 2 of them he loses 15k.  During that time he also does a few delivery jobs but they are for peanuts and have no meaningful effect on his overall earnings.  He's on 60% Comprendez?

3setpoints there would be no chasing.  Just someone who has a lot of self confidence and is prepared to bet big on the very few occasions where he has strong convictions.  Clearly on some of those occasions he will lose.

was he a millionaire?

Far from it.  Started gambling on here with next to nothing like most I reckon.  Comparing 2002/3 to 2012/13 is like comparing Kensington and Chelsea with Jaywick though.

Comparing 2002/3 to 2012/13 is like comparing Kensington and Chelsea with Jaywick though.

sorry, how do you mean

CLYDEBANK, of course in theory anything is possible, but I still say that in real life it's impossible to be on 60 % PC and be an outright gambler on sports/horse racing.
  Unless of course we are talking about someone who knows results before they happen.....

It was much easier to win then.

Far from it.  Started gambling on here with next to nothing like most I reckon.
And this statement from you doesn't really describe an outright gambler that will be on less than 5 % commission generated after a decade on here.

Well it would be very difficult in 2013 Eddie but PC is based on your lifetime pre 2011 earnings.

Eddie, I respect your opinion as much as anyone on here, but please give it a rest with this one.  It's like I'm a banker going in front of The Parliamentary Select Committee.  It's got nothing to do with the point I was making that Betfair can reverse payments even after the funds have cleared.  Everything I've said is true.

Think the US Presedential or UK General Election for example.  I am quite sure he didn't know the result beforehand

It's certainly a sobering topic. I'm currently on 22.47% so not yet a PC payer but it must be said if I ever did reach it I would be sorely tempted to join a rival exchange. I might still do some of my betting on here however due to the fact it has some markets that the others don't bother with.

Well if you want to bet on the US or UK Elections, for example, you have to do it on here (especially since InTrade went belly up thanks to the US govt).

have you made a lifetime profit or loss overall cdog?

not looking forward to black Wednesday this week... gonna be a bad one when I log in.  Traded a market all year, had my biggest ever win settled saturday, paid 600 quid com and probably close to 3k's gonna simply disappear in pc

Complete piss take.

but you're in lifetime profit overall?

yes.

person a,

been here for years, wins a few k each year, loves the place, no incentives but tells everyone how great this place is / was / not anymore..wins about 12k and then gets hit with 20% premium charge.

person b,  just joins.

if both people did the same antepost market and identical bets, person b, is 3k better off.  doesnt make sense. No wonder they need the pc avoidance team.

Thats why you get your brother to sign up, then your sister, then your mother, then your granddad.... etc

then a 2.5k fine.

sorry adjustment.

hide ur ip address/delete all flash cookies and open an account under someone else's name. that's what everyone else does.

yes Lanza I'm in profit overall. I do wish the portal would show the net profit though as well as the gross profit (which apart from for Premium charge purposes is meaningless)

sorry that was in reply to 3setpoints.

i always thought the the gross profit figure was where i was in terms of pc1 / pc2 and thought i had to finish shortly as getting caught in pc2 net at possibly 60% just isnt worth all the time/effort from them onwards.

Was given a stay of execution (thats what it feels like) to find out that pc levels are based on net profit. 

net profit =  gross profit - (commission / pc1 / anyother charges)

Probably extended my forced retirement date back by a yr, maybe 2 if i scale down a little?

I try not to visit the portal, horrible little place.  Just take a deep breathe when checking through me list of bets for the week, every wednesday, looking for the betfair take.

you spend 3 or 4 years, hardly winning anything, a few yrs on 10-15, maybe 20. Finally crack it...40k..50k...64k this year so far...and then retired. 

Welcome to betfair.

i thought so cdog.

i thought so cdog.

I quite like the portal in fact as it always reminds me that I'm not subject to the premium charge How much I'll like in the future though is anyone's guess

Betfair now looks like this after 5-10 years

People not paying the PC charge:- Time to give up. You are really not making your betting pay after lots of expenses.

People who are paying the PC charge:-Time to give up.You are really not making your betting pay after lots of expenses.


Moral of the story is when a betting company becomes a monopoly it just isn't worth the time/effort for the players anymore(You could be making much more elsewhere with all the time/effort you put in)

People not paying the PC charge:- Time to give up. You are really not making your betting pay after lots of expenses.

You can be a big winner and not pay the premium charge, depends on your style of betting and commission generated

what do you bet on cdog? how do you manage to be up overall. surely if you hit a losing bet do you now chase or martingale to stay "up overall" ?

Mainly cricket, football, tennis and snooker. Other stuff when appropriate. Not sure about the rest of your question though. Surely there are a lot of people who are up but not up by enough to pay the PC.

not sure how cos how does a regular bettor cope when a bet loses if not chasing?

because if a bet loses they probably lost 0.25% of their bank so why would they be chasing

if I have a £10,000 bank and lose £25.

so when they are backing a 1.30 shot they are only staking £25 to win £7.50

£7.50 wins surely aren't gonna make you 20k a year

a few thousand of them would

and what about the few thousand x £100 loses to go with it?

sorry £25 not £100

They could have 50 bets a day, small losses , small wins, all adds up , if they have an edge

50 x £25 bets = £1,250 , if they average £1,310 return they'd easily make £20k a year

unlikely though as they're winning 2 from 3 without chasing. probably make 825 backing 1.30's so actually make a loss

Why would they make £825 if they were backing 1.30

Why would they have to back 1.30 anyway? Can't see why they would care if a bet was 1.30 or 33/1 if they figured it was a good price

well what odds are they backing roughly?

who are we talking about? Surely everyone backs at many different ranges of odds. I know I certainly do, both backing and laying. I doubt there is a 'typical' sort of odds 'they' are backing at roughly.

cdog how does a regular bettor cope when a bet loses if not chasing?

They have to let it not affect them too much and move onto the next bet/day/week or whenever. Some are better at this than others. I'm better than I was but still get down more than I should. Especially today when Flipkens never traded below 1.8 for one of her own service games despite this being a grand slam semi final, not some supposed mismatch! And guess who backed her thinking it was value Still I'd been on a decent run until then so I had remind myself of that.

see this is the problem with value. and betting is your only income cdog?