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Shame on you betfair...hands up who shares this opinion...a p2p exchange should not participate in its own markets...
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The cross matcher is the only good thing ever to come out of betfair towers. At least it would be if they stopped the trapping and penny pinching.
hand NOT raised.
agree with feck about the skimmer though.
agree with feck about the skimmer though.
crossmatching can be done without betfair putting money into the market. It's also a very good thing.
I agree that in principle the exchange shouldn't be making a profit (beyond commission) on a transaction. However, if it weren't Betfair doing it then bots like mine would be doing it.
Although Betfair has the advantage of not having the operational risk that I have, the average punter should be happy that the profits remain with Betfair rather than in my pocket.
Although Betfair has the advantage of not having the operational risk that I have, the average punter should be happy that the profits remain with Betfair rather than in my pocket.
Why cross matching is a bad thing? Adds liquidity...good.
it matches bets people already want so thats a good thing. They could put a little more effort into the algorithm though to enable best execution. But why would anyone put in the effort when it means they lose the profits from the skimming?
Feck N. Eejit
Date Joined: 10 Jan 02
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When: 20 Apr 12 18:51
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Date Joined: 10 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 7,097 | Blogger: Feck N. Eejit's blog
The cross matcher is the only good thing ever to come out of betfair towers. At least it would be if they stopped the trapping and penny pinching.
The bold part is key. Technically Betfair can still claim to give best execution (and it certainly isn't worse execution than before). The difference is that Betfair now take a small amount of money out of the market and charge a commission after that as if they hadn't made money already.
I reckon Betfair probably make a small profit from me from my 'cross matching mistakes and bad fills', maybe a couple of hundred a month. I expect that if you add the mistakes of the people matching against me, you can take that amount x10 though. Just a guess, as I have no way of knowing really.
Regarding the penny pinching, I don't think Betfair will (need to) change that, as it makes money for them and does relatively little harm. The trap bets do massive harm though, as any leisure punter on the wrong side of one of these will feel they got conned and might choose a simpler traditional bookie for their punting.
I remember reading something about a plan for Betfair providing liquidity for certain markets? What I think they should do is establish a floor. Fill the market with prices say 10-20% away from fair value (where possible, in many markets this will be too risky). The 'real' market makers and bettors will create a tight spread, but if someone makes a massive mistake, they will match against the floor price instead of a 1.01 trap bettor and only lose 10% -20% of their stake, instead of the close to 100% that's possible now. They can't get rid of trap betting completely, but probably could get rid of about 80% of it.
For instance, I once lost £2k Backing a 110 shot at 1.01, because I hit the wrong box in an over/unders market. Virtually my whole stake. I've taken different measures to avoid this, but fun bettors will do this kind of thing every now and again, and it's not good for the exchange.
Date Joined: 10 Jan 02
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When: 20 Apr 12 18:51
Joined:
Date Joined: 10 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 7,097 | Blogger: Feck N. Eejit's blog
The cross matcher is the only good thing ever to come out of betfair towers. At least it would be if they stopped the trapping and penny pinching.
The bold part is key. Technically Betfair can still claim to give best execution (and it certainly isn't worse execution than before). The difference is that Betfair now take a small amount of money out of the market and charge a commission after that as if they hadn't made money already.
I reckon Betfair probably make a small profit from me from my 'cross matching mistakes and bad fills', maybe a couple of hundred a month. I expect that if you add the mistakes of the people matching against me, you can take that amount x10 though. Just a guess, as I have no way of knowing really.
Regarding the penny pinching, I don't think Betfair will (need to) change that, as it makes money for them and does relatively little harm. The trap bets do massive harm though, as any leisure punter on the wrong side of one of these will feel they got conned and might choose a simpler traditional bookie for their punting.
I remember reading something about a plan for Betfair providing liquidity for certain markets? What I think they should do is establish a floor. Fill the market with prices say 10-20% away from fair value (where possible, in many markets this will be too risky). The 'real' market makers and bettors will create a tight spread, but if someone makes a massive mistake, they will match against the floor price instead of a 1.01 trap bettor and only lose 10% -20% of their stake, instead of the close to 100% that's possible now. They can't get rid of trap betting completely, but probably could get rid of about 80% of it.
For instance, I once lost £2k Backing a 110 shot at 1.01, because I hit the wrong box in an over/unders market. Virtually my whole stake. I've taken different measures to avoid this, but fun bettors will do this kind of thing every now and again, and it's not good for the exchange.
It's trap bets in general doing harm I was referring to btw.
Totally agree Investor. Betfair are the no 1 trapper now and even when they're not the guilty party it will be one of their 40-60% mugging crew partners doing the mugging. I've never fell victim of it myself but recall I once clicked on an offer of 200 @ 8.0 just as the market refreshed and found I had actually clicked on the new best offer of 1.01. It was shortly after a suspension due to a withdrawal so the market offers were sparse. I was lucky because a lot of the time I don't look up and just click tab to move directly to the stake box, enter the stake and press the enter key.
Ages ago I suggested they show an OK_CANCEL message box if someone attempted to take odds (in pre-ir markets) that were a certain percentage below / above recent activity but I don't think they're that bothered by people being ripped off. It flies in the face of logic but they actually act like a company who believes they're about to have the rug pulled from under them and are trying to make as much money as possible before it happens. The complicity of the GC in all this defies belief. I'd guess they swallow betfair's explanation that they're not trap bets they're keep bets as easily as they do the rest of their meal.
Ages ago I suggested they show an OK_CANCEL message box if someone attempted to take odds (in pre-ir markets) that were a certain percentage below / above recent activity but I don't think they're that bothered by people being ripped off. It flies in the face of logic but they actually act like a company who believes they're about to have the rug pulled from under them and are trying to make as much money as possible before it happens. The complicity of the GC in all this defies belief. I'd guess they swallow betfair's explanation that they're not trap bets they're keep bets as easily as they do the rest of their meal.
whatever happened to the Aussie wallet cross match refund? Never heard any more after the initial payment and I thought it was supposed to be 1 a quarter?
If betfair refunded the excess they make from cross matching and did not use bots in their own exchange betfair would be fair. That is unlikely to happen given how the gambling industry is run so it is anything but fair. Betunfair.
well something has drastically reduced inrunning liquidity on most of the minor sports. is it cross matching or is it the premium charge, both or something else?
If it were profitable to put up lots of liquidity at 20% OR on most markets, someone would be doing it. Since they are not, it probably isn't profitable...
TheVis
Date Joined: 10 Feb 11
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21 Apr 12 10:43 Joined: 10 Feb 11 | Topic/replies: 7,801 | Blogger: TheVis's blog
whatever happened to the Aussie wallet cross match refund? Never heard any more after the initial payment and I thought it was supposed to be 1 a quarter?
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I never even got the initial payment
#iwantmy£2.63
Date Joined: 10 Feb 11
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21 Apr 12 10:43 Joined: 10 Feb 11 | Topic/replies: 7,801 | Blogger: TheVis's blog
whatever happened to the Aussie wallet cross match refund? Never heard any more after the initial payment and I thought it was supposed to be 1 a quarter?
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I never even got the initial payment
#iwantmy£2.63
More bets are getting matched. I find it strange that I will lay a horse in-running at 6.2, the odds will move out to 6.8 and settle for a moment and without the screen changing and lays offering better odds at 6.4/6.6./6.8, I find myself getting matched in part or whole. Is this a 'delay' in the bet confirmation or a separate ask and offer other than the main platform being offered (i.e. api)? Note: I use a one second refresh and I have checked after for 'spikes' in the betting
That is a plus since I am happy with my bet being matched though I wonder how often I have been offering better odds and someone got matched offering worse than me.
But there is still a pence here and a pence there being added to my backs (i.e. I back 5 in-running, three bets get matched and I have a total of 5.01 matched). Obviously a glitch in the system and/or betfair compensating to balance positions offered over various odds.
That is a plus since I am happy with my bet being matched though I wonder how often I have been offering better odds and someone got matched offering worse than me.
But there is still a pence here and a pence there being added to my backs (i.e. I back 5 in-running, three bets get matched and I have a total of 5.01 matched). Obviously a glitch in the system and/or betfair compensating to balance positions offered over various odds.
charlatan
I think if you are looking for waht killed liquidity... it was DRUM ROLL...
UNfair markets..... you can only steal for so long, and people will stop playing
sadly I think Betfair went for thr 40-60% of thieved money too late in most sports, they should have shared the spoils earlier... before the goose was killed....
I think if you are looking for waht killed liquidity... it was DRUM ROLL...
UNfair markets..... you can only steal for so long, and people will stop playing
sadly I think Betfair went for thr 40-60% of thieved money too late in most sports, they should have shared the spoils earlier... before the goose was killed....
one crafty thing BF could have done with the skimbot would have been to pledge all proceeds from it to grass roots sport or some other good cause.
no one would really begrudge the pennies if that were the case, they'd get the positive publicity and, should they so choose, they could quietly reduce some other form of sponsorship by an equivalent amount.
maybe starting with the man u sponsorship.
seriously, can anyone think of another company that's paid money to associate themselves with an organisation they know in advance the majority of their customers actively dislike?
no one would really begrudge the pennies if that were the case, they'd get the positive publicity and, should they so choose, they could quietly reduce some other form of sponsorship by an equivalent amount.
maybe starting with the man u sponsorship.
seriously, can anyone think of another company that's paid money to associate themselves with an organisation they know in advance the majority of their customers actively dislike?
A while ago I suggested they allow anyone to opt in to operating ir with a one second delay (paying a much heavier premium charge) while the rest all operated with the usual delay (increased on horse racing though). At the end of the week they shared the premium charges collected that week from those operating with a one second delay between those who matched their bets in proportion to what they lost on those bets. Any course player who didn't opt in to the one second delay would've been at such a disadvantage they would either have opted in or packed it in. It was an opportunity for betfair to reclaim their soul but, shortly afterwards, they decided to sell it instead in exchange for a 40-60% slice of the "action".
I would certainly grudge it going to horse racing. I heard that in Ireland part of the tax on turnover on ALL sports bets goes to sustaining Irish horse racing. Horse racing can sustain itself. I have no problem with it getting smaller.
I would expect a remark of that kind from all nomarks where their simple minded edge was dependent on interface cluedo.
viva el presidente!
seriously, can anyone think of another company that's paid money to associate themselves with an organisation they know in advance the majority of their customers actively dislike?
You could make the argument for the sponsors of the majority of football clubs/sports teams in general.
seriously, can anyone think of another company that's paid money to associate themselves with an organisation they know in advance the majority of their customers actively dislike?
You could make the argument for the sponsors of the majority of football clubs/sports teams in general.
I think if you are looking for waht killed liquidity... it was DRUM ROLL...
UNfair markets..... you can only steal for so long, and people will stop playing
it's odd you say that because it seems more that the big sports (no less unfair than what i'm talking about and probably much more so in the case of horse racing and tennis) have maintained or increased liquidity while the smaller sports have died. in the case of baseball the rot set in when they increased the max commission from 2% to 5% ages ago but for many other sports it's much more recent and even applies to events in australia which tend to be fairer in informational terms.
UNfair markets..... you can only steal for so long, and people will stop playing
it's odd you say that because it seems more that the big sports (no less unfair than what i'm talking about and probably much more so in the case of horse racing and tennis) have maintained or increased liquidity while the smaller sports have died. in the case of baseball the rot set in when they increased the max commission from 2% to 5% ages ago but for many other sports it's much more recent and even applies to events in australia which tend to be fairer in informational terms.
Apr 23, 2012 -- 6:33PM, Feck N. Eejit wrote:
A while ago I suggested they allow anyone to opt in to operating ir with a one second delay (paying a much heavier premium charge) while the rest all operated with the usual delay (increased on horse racing though). At the end of the week they shared the premium charges collected that week from those operating with a one second delay between those who matched their bets in proportion to what they lost on those bets. Any course player who didn't opt in to the one second delay would've been at such a disadvantage they would either have opted in or packed it in. It was an opportunity for betfair to reclaim their soul but, shortly afterwards, they decided to sell it instead in exchange for a 40-60% slice of the "action".
what a ridiculously narrow minded idea
what a ridiculously narrow minded idea
If I remember right I suggested the opters in had a 1 second delay and everyone else had a 3 second delay and it was only implemented on the grossly unfair ir markets such as horse racing and the flies-round-sh1te markets. The idea being that the underhand stuff was concentrated to course players who had to give most of their winnings back to those who were mugged. Certainly no good to shell and pea players but anyone else could place their bet and cancel during neutral periods faster than previously.
If I remember right I suggested the opters in had a 1 second delay and everyone else had a 3 second delay and it was only implemented on the grossly unfair ir markets such as horse racing and the flies-round-sh1te markets. The idea being that the underhand stuff was concentrated to course players who had to give most of their winnings back to those who were mugged. Certainly no good to shell and pea players but anyone else could place their bet and cancel during neutral periods faster than previously.
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