Multiple lay betting

You would have to be a complete and utter mug to do betfair multiples.

If you back the multiple you get SCREWED
If you lay the multiple you get SCREWED


I put in a multiple yesterday and to back it I got odds of 10.39 but when I clicked on lay multiple the jumps to 13.89 and I had to lay it at 13.89



If I want to back it I get 10.39 but if I want to lay it I have to lay it 13.89


embarrassment of a site

Thank you for your contribution,ILLG.

Having now received a reply from Betfair to my earlier enquiry and request for an explanation as to why I lost I agree with your first sentence.

The bet seems fiendishly complicated with no examples for guidance.

At least I have now learnt which bets not to have on Betfair.

In Betfair's reply the respondent admitted that it took him sometime to master the multiples. Additionly, they have now asked me submit a survey.

So why did you lose Orpheus? Poor value or not, your bet should have been a winner if it was as described.

Trevh,

The bet was as described i.e. Lay four draws in the Multiple section.

The reply that I received from Betfair said that after I had placed the bet I should have then backed the multiple.

To quote, "This way you are effectively BACKING NO DRAWS, so if none of the games draw this is a winner".

I'm still trying to get my head around this!

In the meantime I have emailed them to say that on my origanal bet if I can't win, then how can I lose.

Here is their reply to my can't win, how can I lose email.

Quote, "you need no draws in any of your legs in order for the multiple to win, if one of the matches ends in a draw your multiple will lose."

To re-iterate, none of the matches ended in a draw.

Lay multiples screw with my head.

There's a handy table in the FAQ

http://betfair-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2482/related/1

Thank you, Longbridge. I'll have a look.

The latest missive from Betfair, apologising for the previous two incorrect explanations, states that as I layed all four legs and then layed the multiple the bet was a losing one because none of the matches were drawn.

However, if one or more of the legs had resulted in a draw then I would have won.

My head hurts! Bigtime!

Crickey, I understand multiples and reading this thread has completely numbed me

Okay, so this is how I explained it to a friend of mine.

1 ) Go to multiples and 'ignore' (repeat IGNORE) the lay odds.

2) Are you there to be a punter (BACK) or as the bookie (TAKE THE BET)?

If you want to be the PUNTER/BACK
Select your coupon using BACK odds on offer.
Place your wager for the BET TYPES.
Proceed to VIEW ODDS and place from there or edit.
The result is the same as filling the coupon at the shop.
If you selected three and took a treble, all three must win for you to profit.

If you want to be THE BOOKIE and take the bet:
Proceed as the punter and place the multiple using the BACK ODDS
THEN
Just above the heading of Bet Type(s), there are two selections.
Back Multiple which means you are the PUNTER
If you click LAY MULTIPLE, you are now the Bookie taking the bet.
Fill in the wager and hit VIEW ODDS
It will show your liablity against taking the multiple.
In this case, if ONE OF THE SELECTIONS loses, you (the bookie) collect.
If all three come in, then you THE BOOKIE loose the liability.

So orpheus, unfortunately you bet against your own bet, it is a bit confusing first time round I must admit, best thing is to avoid BF multiples not because of the initial confusion, but the poor value which will be a killer long term.

It's not that you don't understand multiples, it appears you don't understand backing/laying.

It appears you have chosen 4 selections and layed each draw (i.e. clicking on the 4 pink selections on the draws). What you have then done is chosen the overall lay selection at the bottom meaning you are now laying the 4 draw lays you picked out.

So overall...... if I back 4 lays... then the bet is what you originally described. However, if you lay the overall selection.... then obviously the opposite is true.

The best way to think of it is not as 4 selections neccessarily but 1 overall selection and then choose whether you want to back or lay it.

Shapeshifter.

Thank you for your input. A most succint explanation, which has helped me to clear up the confusion in my head.

grrrrowl,

I believe that you are right, I don't understand multiples (at least the lay version).

However, I think that the penny may have now dropped, life being the learning curve that it is.

Trevh,

You are also correct, particularly from the value aspect.

If the value on multiples is so poor why do BF continue to offer this betting platform. Surely with such bad value there are very few punters doing multiples, which would make it pointless to operate in first place!!

No, because there are large numbers of lazy people who cant be bothered to use comparison sites like oddschecker, some who like keeping all their funds in once place, and some who simply couldnt care less what price they get!

The fact is betfair multiples offer absolutely rubbish value, and only get taken by lazy, stupid mugs.

For myself, how I have used multiples:

a) Saturday's, I have played a "flutter" correct score multiple where playing "or" with two selections on a match easy to do and better value than doing it through a bookies. 

Try it some time.  Putting a fiver on six matches with folds and correct scores creates a position to hedge as the 3PM matches progress.

b) I use it often to lay 3 baseball games to score a win if one fave gets turned.  It works well with shorties.  But if you put an underdog into the equation, the numbers can seem daunting for a minimal return. 

However, backing:  As Rosie47 said, you can go to comparison sites, etc, and look for value.

Me, it is quicker to do a couple of trades that cover the commission and add value to the result than to click around the world.

one punters approach to multiples.

If you are backing the correct scores which are rank outsiders, and by those I mean probably at least 20/1+, you MIGHT get fractionally better than at a bookies after commission. However, you cannot say these represent value as they are underpriced at the bookie anyway!

Multiples never represent value at betfair - because the percentage deduction from the exchange price and the commission are so large.

It really is that simple.

Rosie47, if anyone simply places a bet on betfair, the value can be quite skinny on some (not all markets).

But using betfair and thinking outside the conventional approach of punting (i.e. 1x2, a straight punt), you can 'create' value, cover commissions in minutes, create profit by combining lays and backs on several markets.

It comes down to some math and understanding of what is available.

That is using betfair to the fullest.

And that extends to multiples as well.

As well, I value my time.  Time means more to me than money.  So, as mentioned, rather than spend time on comparison sites, checking what prices are available on four football matches times 'x' high street, etc, I would rather do my business under 'one roof' then use the tools available to maximize the play.

For me, it really is that simple.

Fine, if that's what you choose to do.

Like I say, saving time and keeping all money in one place (for that, read lazy if you like) is important to some.

It's quite simple to be selective and get value from the exchange prices, especially when they vary so wildly and are frequently around 0-1% overound.

You may well make a profit from normal betting.

But please don't fool yourself into thinking you can get value from multiples, because you can't. You might just as well claim to get value from roulette or the arcade, your long term chances of making a profit are simmilar. It is simply mathematically impossible to back or lay so far below above a 100% book, to pay 5% commission on the result, and show a profit.

I guarantee not one single person shows a long term profit on multiples. (And of course by that I don't mean a one off big win)

Anyone laying at betfair's multiple prices would clean up as easily as they do, why do you think they keep giving cashback on them and getting famous celebrities to promote them? Because they make huge profits on them....which means, yep, that punters lose a fortune from them....think about it.

Rosie, I may misunderstand but it is coming across as though you think there are punters that do nothing but multiples and rely heavily on them. 

Per your line: "I guarantee not one single person shows a long term profit on multiples."

and

"But please don't fool yourself into thinking you can get value from multiples, because you can't."

Well, for me, the spreadsheet doesn't lie and by placing a multiple while factoring in other positions on the exchange, it can.

As I said, someone who is using exchanges and uses an "outside the box" thinking/approach to taking positions on events can incorporate multiples to create some excellent opportunities to hedge and profit while monitoring several events at once.

By the way, Rosie.  Try this on the weekend.

- Take five matches.
- Select two score results for each match
- place it on betfair.
- then place the same bet with a bookie after using a comparison site.

Factoring in your time (I value mine at £25/hr, so half an hour is £12.50), what is the difference?

As well, you might also be surprised on the return offered by the bookmakers when it comes to this type of bet once they lay out all the combinations

Reading the thread I've worked it out.

You've LAYED a LAY multiple.

You wanted to BACK the LAY multiple.

Surely you must have lost quite a lot if you layed a multi?

I stand by both of those two statements, Shapeshifter (just to make it clear, in case I didn't, they apply only to multiples placed on betfair) With so much competition in the industry, and each game frequently best priced 102% or even less, it would be silly to claim that nobody can do so with any firm. Since betfair multiples are always miles below the best price, I am justified in saying so.

Somoneone may well be able to make a profitable system which includes betfair multiples, but you would make much bigger profits if you stripped them out completely, that is for sure.

I again state, to say you can get value with a system which has such a huge negative expectation in terms of odds, is simply nonsense.

As for saving time, well, because I know for sure that betfair never offers the best price on a multiple, I don't have to waste any checking their offers

When placing a multiple the odds shown are said to be only indicative. I presume that the final odds are calculated according to BSP. If this is correct, would they not be more than the guide odds if you can believe their claim that they're consistently better than ISP.