General Betting
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15 Jan 12
22:12
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05 Dec 08
Betfair Pty Ltd may offset risk that it has taken in accepting wagers, by placing bets directly into the betting exchange. Betfair Pty Ltd will be afforded no priority in the bet matching process, will pay commission at standard rates.
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Betfair Pty Ltd will be afforded no priority in the bet matching process, will pay commission at standard rates.yea right
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The Tasmanian Gaming Commission has granted Betfair Pty Ltd race wagering and sports betting endorsements to be added to its Tasmanian Gaming Licence, allowing it to conduct fixed odds betting on racing and sporting events. Accordingly, we have made some amendments to our Terms and Conditions.
They key changes include: - All wagers placed using these products will be placed directly with Betfair Pty Ltd as opposed to with any other agency (i.e. Sports Alive). - All wagers placed using these products will be determined in accordance with the rules that are displayed at the point of market publication. - Betfair Pty Ltd may offset risk that it has taken in accepting wagers, by placing bets directly into the betting exchange. Betfair Pty Ltd will be afforded no priority in the bet matching process, will pay commission at standard rates. |
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What odds Betfair Pty Ltd will be front running bar stewards?
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So if someone tries to cheat them they are going to cheat their customers?
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Betfair "will pay commission at standard rates."
 But they will be paying commission to themselves They could be paying 100% premium charge and it wouldn't matter to them, there is no effective charge there. This alone gives them an advantage over everyone else on the market. Imagine a 'coin flip' market hosted by Betfair. What odds could you offer to make a profit? The true odds are 2.00 heads or tails. So you need to back at bigger odds than these, to give yourself an edge and to pay commission. Now think what odds Betfair would need to get in order to make a profit. They can back at 2.00 and still win. Sure, there's no edge for them at even money odds, but they would still be generating commission for themselves (from the opposing bet) and paying none themselves. So effectively, they have an edge over all others in the market. By playing in their own markets, Betfair is cheating everyone else in those markets through their unfair advantage. |
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I thought they'd been doing this for years?
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They have Bluenose, but not the Aussie branch - I think.
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Yeah, and in other earth shattering news, bears are now known to have a dump in the woods, and the Titanic is reported to be experiencing difficulties.
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Maybe they'll sort out the Aussie markets/My markets bug now.
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I thought they'd been doing this for years?
No they haven't. Only for multiples on the main exchanges have they been putting their money into the markets. |
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Oh do me a favour, it's not exactly a state secret that they hoover money in various markets.
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If you are thinking about cross matching, that's a completely different concept.
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No I'm not, they trade in lots of markets and have done for ages. Think about, with advantages like no delays, no commission / pc / virtually unlimited funds to push prices around, why on earth wouldn't they?
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Can you show me where they said they've been doing this?
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Oh for goodness sake don't be so naive, it's not something they like publicizing, is it?
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Well speculation and facts are completely different things. The point at the moment is that they are now saying that they are going to be hedgeing into the exchange markets. This is big development considering the information they hold on customers and therefore have an information advantage.
This unfair advantage can only be unethetical. Where are the regulators? |
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The regulators?
Oh...you mean the GC I take it? I wouldn't hold your breath, given their lamentable failure to deal with corruption in horse racing. It's not in any way "a big development" btw. They've admitted hedging into normal markets to offset the liability on the multiples ages ago, but heaven only knows why they bother given that the prices they offer on multiples are so unbelievably rubbish they make a fortune on them. |
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Firstly, toss of a coin is not evens heads or tails.
Heads side has slightly more weight than tails. Try flipping a buttered piece of bread and you get the exaggerated result. The higher the coin is flipped the more likely it is to land face down heads. Presumably Betfair's fixed odds will be lower than exchange odds, otherwise backers will leave the exchange markets in droves, leaving only layers and traders high and dry. Is this the begiining of the end of the entire exchange model? Will they start banning winners and offering fixed odds only and credit betting? Will they be dumping fixed odds liabilities on the exchange driving prices right down? Too many unanswered questions. Really worries me when they release something without full explanation and just an update to the Terms and Conditions that we must accept before placing any exchange bet. This is like the Hunt For Red October!!! |
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Sounds like an increase in market turnover and liquidity would be good for anyone in the market trying to steal a price here and there?
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Is this the begiining of the end of the entire exchange model?
Nah! Decline began ages ago when Corporate greed kicked in and the bean counters went on overdrive. |
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Well if they wanted to use known successful value bettors bets as a guide they would be able to have some pretty solid guidance on where to place their fixed odds. They might not front run the queue but they could shift the odds in the exchange closer to true value faster than is currently the case lessening mispricing opportunities as everyone will be watching their odds setting very closely and following moves.
Then using Wall Street standard short squeeze techniques every now and then they could throw a curveball shifting the odds the wrong way leading the sheep off the cliff. So many options unfavourable to exchange bettors are possible with inside knowledge and the active participation in the market themselves if they so choose to use them. They may not but the doubt will be gnawing away at all of us about how we are being played. This sort of stuff is the bread and butter of Wall St and now with the City types in control they would be likely to be reverting to what has kept the stock market casino insiders in clover for the last 100 years (inside knowledge and market manipulation). |
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Exactly my fears zooot. I suggested each account has a secondary optional password that was required by staff to enable them to see a customer's bets before the market was completed. Most people would have no need of it but if someone who used it needed staff to look up their account in a dispute they'd have to tell them the password and change it afterwards. Betfair would argue they need to see the accounts to spot suspicious betting patterns but why do they need to see them before the event's completed? So the BHA investigation will only take 3 years instead of 3 years and 4 minutes?
Security newbie: "FFS, there's a massively profitable account here that has a near perfect record and seems to cover the entire spectrum of b3nt jocks and trainers". Security head: "That's our account ysdc". |
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BTW, only 2 other people voiced support for my secondary password idea. Sharp minds my @rse.
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This is a disheartening development.Can somebody tell me how betfairs profit compares to traditional bookmakers profit. So i can have betfairs perspective for this move
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Feck I suspect there are many ways they can analyse data using various identifiers if they choose. We can only hope they choose not to go down that path.
In the medium term it is very much in their interests to play fair even if they don't realise it yet. In the stock market there are revenue streams that are huge and somewhat involuntary for the high frequency traders and insiders to tap into - compulsory retirement savings funds etc. and a sembelance of a stroy that this is investing - and investing is a sound thing to do. So lots of sheep to shear. However recent years have seen many sheep shawn too often and they are leaving the market. In a betting exchange the inflow of new money is much harder to maintain and more vulnerable to not even bothering. Doubt as to integrity and reward (e.g. commission levels and PC) has a much bigger impact than in the stock market. The point is if the City mentality of shearing the sheep every which way they can tales over and is understood to be so BF could be seen as dodgy very easily. Word of Mouth prmotion was huge for BF in the beginning but I reckon has dried right up these days. The regulars grind out some profit or break even but as the market toughens with time and BF slice more away with skim bots, hedging PC etc. Word of Mouth will be pretty minimal. In short it is in BF's interests to be transperant and not try to slice a little more profit from the ecosystem in ways that take opportunity from the punter or worse actually play them for mugs. Crossmatching PC and hedging are slicing away but very active hedging and position taking could move from a little slice here and there to doing major manipulation and classic stock market pump and dump with the benefit of superior information. I think BF need to make it much clearer what they intend to be doing with the hedging and information access they have. Possibly too late though |
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So Feck, what happens when BF need to investigate, say, a £21m bet in a market before it's settled? Phone up, password, refuse, moan...half an hour later...override password obtained and used despite the customer refusing so that an investigation can commence. Doesnt seem sensible to me.
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Honestly, I don't regret my decision one bit.
Initially Betfair were providing the platform and taking a small commission. It's become evident that this platform has evolved into them driving the bus, manipulating and playing the markets, slicing and hedging, crossmatching and modelling. Value has been hoovered out of the markets and now will be dysoned out of them! Left are only the traders, who if successful, will be paying 60% commission. Surely it's past due for users to vote with their feet. With the latest developments, you'd be mad not to, because traders will be at the mercy of Betfair dumping money unpredicted. |
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So Feck, what happens when BF need to investigate, say, a £21m bet in a market before it's settled? Phone up, password, refuse, moan...half an hour later...override password obtained and used despite the customer refusing so that an investigation can commence. Doesnt seem sensible to me.
They'd be able to investigate once the market was finished (which is what happened anyway) but there would be nothing to stop them preventing such bets hitting the queue in the first place. |
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zooot, I agree with what you say but imo betfair passed the shearing too many sheep barrier a long time ago. For 8 years or so they at least had the excuse that they were not the main gainers from shell and pea activities but that was no longer the case once the pc was introduce.
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zooot, I agree with what you say but imo betfair passed the shearing too many sheep barrier a long time ago. For 8 years or so they at least had the excuse that they were not the main gainers from shell and pea activities but that was no longer the case once the pc was introduced.
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I can see betfair passing on bets to the exchange that successful customers indicate are value and choking ones until late on (after they drift) where the indicators suggest bad value.
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This would be hideous if true and do a lot to drive away all but the low profit to turnover incumbent layers (and their punters).
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Betfair need to make a statement about what exactly they intend to do because what they seem to be proposing is exactly like insider trading on the stock market.
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So they intend to trade in the markets. If they intend to do in running bets then this is a very worrying thing. Who is going to regulate what they intend to do. They are going to have a big advantage over most punters with the best pics information etc. Very worrying. What's to stop them using the insider knowledge that they get (eg corrupt trainers etc) to their advantage.
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If betfair decided to use "inside information" in determining whether to hedge or not, this would surely lead to the demise of betfair!? Simply for the reason: those who offer early prices will end up being forced into placing bets at the very last minute. This would lead to lower liquidity early on, which in turn would be another reason for casual players not to get involved "can't be bothered waiting til the off to get my bet on, I'll go with bookie xyz instead". In such a circumstance the "casuals" may opt to go with betfair sportsbook instead, the trouble for betfair here is, they may have a small overround but no idea what the real prices should be as their exchange markets would be barren, more than likely they will end up getting screwed over. Winners in such a circumstance won't be welcome at the sportsbook! I think betfair will be worried about not having an option to trade out of large early liabilities, so treading on thin ground. I believe they will be shooting themselves in the foot if they use their inside information unfairly. I am sure it is not even legal? It will be pretty obvious pretty quickly for the market makers/position takers if betfair do start using their inside knowledge.
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TheMaskedAvenger post @ 00:08 best sums it up for me....
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The early markets are already a joke Getafix. This place would be better renamed Last5Minutes.com and it's all down to the stupid trader friendly interface.
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That's something else I didn't consider.
Well before the off, in general punters are guided by bookie early prices and they work from there. Generally the market then takes it's overall direction from track odds. They have to do their own 100% market from these odds. Why wouldn't they wait for Betfair fixed prices directions from sharp minds before they enter the markets instead. I have a feeling that last5mins.com could in fact become somewhat of a bigger reality. |
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acc
Date Joined: 29 Oct 03 Add contact | Send message When: 15 Jan 12 23:53 Joined: Date Joined: 29 Oct 03 | Topic/replies: 122 | Blogger: acc's blog I thought they'd been doing this for years? No they haven't. Only for multiples on the main exchanges have they been putting their money into the markets. Rate reply: 3.8 (1 Ratings) The report button allows you to report a post, comment, reply or another user's behaviour. | report block user TheMaskedAvenger By: This user is online. TheMaskedAvenger Date Joined: 12 Oct 11 Add contact | Send message When: 16 Jan 12 00:01 Joined: Date Joined: 12 Oct 11 | Topic/replies: 1,932 | Blogger: TheMaskedAvenger's blog Oh do me a favour, it's not exactly a state secret that they hoover money in various markets. I'm pretty confident Betfair don't do any proprietary trading on here. They hedge multiples, and they've probably hedged bets struck off exchange for the 'high roller segment'. Seeing as Betfair scrapped the highly profitable high roller segment, though, I doubt they're engaging in proper trading as their customers do. They have a low risk 'free money' business model, and no need for 'gambling'. |